Landings!!!
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Landings!!!
Hi Guys
New to this forum so be gentle with me
I just wanted to ask you experienced flyers for some advice on landings.
I currently have 11 hours, and have started circuits. I do pretty good approaches at the moment but I am convinced that is because of excess use of/use of the PAPI... I have been spoilt at my current airfield.
The other week we did cross wind circuits .. and you guessed it.. no PAPI.. I found it difficult to judge whether Iwas too high or too low. Consequently I ended up doing steep descents.... and slightly back damaging landings....
I finally got it right on my last circuit.... since then I have been trying not look at it, but those beautiful lights just draw me in....
Any advice?
Flying Spice...
New to this forum so be gentle with me
I just wanted to ask you experienced flyers for some advice on landings.
I currently have 11 hours, and have started circuits. I do pretty good approaches at the moment but I am convinced that is because of excess use of/use of the PAPI... I have been spoilt at my current airfield.
The other week we did cross wind circuits .. and you guessed it.. no PAPI.. I found it difficult to judge whether Iwas too high or too low. Consequently I ended up doing steep descents.... and slightly back damaging landings....
I finally got it right on my last circuit.... since then I have been trying not look at it, but those beautiful lights just draw me in.... Any advice?
Flying Spice...
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Perhaps you could just ask ATC to turn off the PAPIs when you're flying the approach (or get your instructor to do it)? Then you can do what us provincial cousins at places without PAPIs do and try and keep the paint spot/squashed bug on the window aligned with the numbers until you flare... 
Sink The Pink
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I must confess I find it slightly unnerving that your instructor has encouraged you to rely on PAPI lights so early in your training.
A crucial part of learning a good circuit is getting comfortable with the different visual aspects you should be trying to achieve at different stages around the circuit, the most important of which is the final appraoch.
Penguinas point about using a mark on the windscreen to help you line up is a great one for learning and can be used at even the roughest and untechnically advanced farm strips!
I'm not wishing to sound harsh but that is my opinion.
On the subject of the flare, just aim to fly the aircraft down the runway at about two feet of height with the power off. If it trys to sink keep squeezing back on the stick untiul it just gives up and puts the mainwheels on the tarmac. You won't jar your back and you certainly won't get a bounce using this method. Just before the mainwheels touch you should hardly be able to see much of the runway ahead of you as it should be obscured by the engine cowling.
Good luck with the rest of the course.
A crucial part of learning a good circuit is getting comfortable with the different visual aspects you should be trying to achieve at different stages around the circuit, the most important of which is the final appraoch.
Penguinas point about using a mark on the windscreen to help you line up is a great one for learning and can be used at even the roughest and untechnically advanced farm strips!
I'm not wishing to sound harsh but that is my opinion.
On the subject of the flare, just aim to fly the aircraft down the runway at about two feet of height with the power off. If it trys to sink keep squeezing back on the stick untiul it just gives up and puts the mainwheels on the tarmac. You won't jar your back and you certainly won't get a bounce using this method. Just before the mainwheels touch you should hardly be able to see much of the runway ahead of you as it should be obscured by the engine cowling.
Good luck with the rest of the course.
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Is there any reason you are using the PAPIs? They are for instrument approaches, and indicate a faily shallow glide slope suitable for powered approaches by large transport aircraft.
Light aeroplanes (especially singles) normally approach more steeply than that, and any PAPI indications should show that you are high on the approach and should be ignored. The correct technique will be explained in your training manual (Thom or whatever yoy use) and should have been explained by your instructor.
Hope you get this sorted - and I suggest you have a chat with your instructor about it.
SSD
Light aeroplanes (especially singles) normally approach more steeply than that, and any PAPI indications should show that you are high on the approach and should be ignored. The correct technique will be explained in your training manual (Thom or whatever yoy use) and should have been explained by your instructor.
Hope you get this sorted - and I suggest you have a chat with your instructor about it.
SSD
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PAPI
Light aeroplanes (especially singles) normally approach more steeply than that, and any PAPI indications should show that you are high on the approach and should be ignored
Perhaps I should have a chat with my instructor.. thanks for the advice.
Not so N, but still FG
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I agree with Shaggy that you ought to forget about PAPIs for visual approaches in light aeroplanes. As your crosswind trip may have indicated, the plan is to learn to land on any runway, not just a particular runway. At many GA fields there are no PAPIs and the only thing you get in the undershoot is a bunch of nimbys throwing rocks at you, and attempts to use these as approach aids meet with mixed results
May I tentatively suggest that your instructors have got their airline hats on too tightly if they have been encouraging you to look at lights on sticks. The squished bug on screen (aka spot that does not move) method is well described in Langewische's commendable tome "Stick and Rudder". I'm just fed up with all the fuel I've burned flying around trying to get the bug in just the right place.
May I tentatively suggest that your instructors have got their airline hats on too tightly if they have been encouraging you to look at lights on sticks. The squished bug on screen (aka spot that does not move) method is well described in Langewische's commendable tome "Stick and Rudder". I'm just fed up with all the fuel I've burned flying around trying to get the bug in just the right place.
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I'd just be inclined to urge a note of caution regarding any assumption as to the glideslope indicated by the PAPIs.
As has been said, at commercial, etc., airports the PAPIs probably indicate around a 3 degree slope, whilst at other fields, if PAPI equipped, they may indicate a steeper slope, e.g. 4 degrees at Sherburn, I believe.
The moral, of course, as in all things aviation related, is not to make assumptions, but to look it up in the AIP.
As far as landings in general are concerned, I agree that there is no substitute for familiarity with the desired appearance of the runway when on final. Aiming for the numbers, 'flying the numbers' w.r.t. threshold speed, etc., and a flare leading to a hold off just above the runway, with idle power, until the aircraft settles gently onto the ground mainwheels first.
As I have seen elsewhere, the aim is to strike the planet a (gentle) glancing blow!
As has been said, at commercial, etc., airports the PAPIs probably indicate around a 3 degree slope, whilst at other fields, if PAPI equipped, they may indicate a steeper slope, e.g. 4 degrees at Sherburn, I believe.
The moral, of course, as in all things aviation related, is not to make assumptions, but to look it up in the AIP.
As far as landings in general are concerned, I agree that there is no substitute for familiarity with the desired appearance of the runway when on final. Aiming for the numbers, 'flying the numbers' w.r.t. threshold speed, etc., and a flare leading to a hold off just above the runway, with idle power, until the aircraft settles gently onto the ground mainwheels first.
As I have seen elsewhere, the aim is to strike the planet a (gentle) glancing blow!
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As I have seen elsewhere, the aim is to strike the planet a (gentle) glancing blow!
Nah, that's what I tend to do if I flare a tad low in the Chippy. What I aim for is "to prevent the aeroplane from landing by gentle, continuous, backward movement of the stick, the wheels just above the runway, until despite my continued rearward stick movement the aeroplane settles gently on to the ground 3-point (if it's a taildragger) or mainwheels first (if it's a trike)".
SSD
Nah, that's what I tend to do if I flare a tad low in the Chippy. What I aim for is "to prevent the aeroplane from landing by gentle, continuous, backward movement of the stick, the wheels just above the runway, until despite my continued rearward stick movement the aeroplane settles gently on to the ground 3-point (if it's a taildragger) or mainwheels first (if it's a trike)".
SSD
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Next time when you are on a couple of mile final pull the power and see what happens! - you may not reckon the lights to be quite so enticing next time.
There has been debate before on PPrune about whether (or not) you should fly the approach on the basis if you lost the engine you would make the threshold - I seem to remember their were views both ways. What ever, the chances are on most types if you fly the PAPIs you certainly wont, but where is the glide slope for your type?? At least this way you will have a pretty good idea if the worst should happen whether you will be in the car park or on the runway. It will also be of help in due course with your PFL training.
In due course as others have said ask the tower to turn off the PAPIs or ask your instructor to take you for a few circuits at an airfield without PAPIs (most dont have them), although to be fair to your instructor often airports authorised for training are the ones with PAPIs.
Where do you fly from?
There has been debate before on PPrune about whether (or not) you should fly the approach on the basis if you lost the engine you would make the threshold - I seem to remember their were views both ways. What ever, the chances are on most types if you fly the PAPIs you certainly wont, but where is the glide slope for your type?? At least this way you will have a pretty good idea if the worst should happen whether you will be in the car park or on the runway. It will also be of help in due course with your PFL training.
In due course as others have said ask the tower to turn off the PAPIs or ask your instructor to take you for a few circuits at an airfield without PAPIs (most dont have them), although to be fair to your instructor often airports authorised for training are the ones with PAPIs.
Where do you fly from?
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I must be lucky! I learnt to fly gliders ... from fields not runways!
It's a great way to learn. You get to appreciate surface, slope and obstical avoidance right from the start. No relying on the "image" of a defined runway for visual clues and therefore no danger of later seeing false clues when approaching wider, longer or whatever runways! You simply learn to fly by attitude, choose your landing site, adjust descent rate with airbrake or throttle and hey presto! pretty well perfect approachs every time!
Sound too simplistic? ... it isn't ... it's really easy ... well I've always found it so
IM
It's a great way to learn. You get to appreciate surface, slope and obstical avoidance right from the start. No relying on the "image" of a defined runway for visual clues and therefore no danger of later seeing false clues when approaching wider, longer or whatever runways! You simply learn to fly by attitude, choose your landing site, adjust descent rate with airbrake or throttle and hey presto! pretty well perfect approachs every time!
Sound too simplistic? ... it isn't ... it's really easy ... well I've always found it so
IM
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Tune to ILS and fly down the pipe
BUT Now on a serious note!
It will come when you get used to seeing the picture.
In regards to PAPIs not working for light aircraft I have never heard that before. If that is the case they would not work for the great cross section of airliners ie A380 v SAAB 340.
Also why should light aircraft make a steeper approach? It is all a distance to threshold against altitude. If you are making a steeper approach then you are making more work in the hold off and will be high on the start of final.
I have found there seems to be no right or wrong way to land. each person has a slioghtly different take that works for them.
Remember they are only "accurate" to approx 300' AAL!
BUT Now on a serious note!
It will come when you get used to seeing the picture.
In regards to PAPIs not working for light aircraft I have never heard that before. If that is the case they would not work for the great cross section of airliners ie A380 v SAAB 340.
Also why should light aircraft make a steeper approach? It is all a distance to threshold against altitude. If you are making a steeper approach then you are making more work in the hold off and will be high on the start of final.
I have found there seems to be no right or wrong way to land. each person has a slioghtly different take that works for them.
Remember they are only "accurate" to approx 300' AAL!
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Why is no one teaching you about visual aiming points/reference points ?
If you are getting it right the reference point remains constant on the canopy relative to the horizon, if you are undershooting your chosen reference point goes up the canopy and if you are overshooting your reference point disappears under the nose, you can compensate accordingly with power or attitude adjustments - once you are over the numbers dump the power and glide it down (using the old Mk1 eyeball to judge the distance/angles).
It's real basic, shortstripper is right. 1 hour in a motorglider with about 15 circuits/landings will soon sort you out !!
I've never used a PAPI in my life - surprised a low time pilot even knows what they are !!! (only just found out what one is myself !!!)
and good luck !!
Arc
If you are getting it right the reference point remains constant on the canopy relative to the horizon, if you are undershooting your chosen reference point goes up the canopy and if you are overshooting your reference point disappears under the nose, you can compensate accordingly with power or attitude adjustments - once you are over the numbers dump the power and glide it down (using the old Mk1 eyeball to judge the distance/angles).
It's real basic, shortstripper is right. 1 hour in a motorglider with about 15 circuits/landings will soon sort you out !!
I've never used a PAPI in my life - surprised a low time pilot even knows what they are !!! (only just found out what one is myself !!!)
and good luck !!
Arc
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In regards to PAPIs not working for light aircraft I have never heard that before. If that is the case they would not work for the great cross section of airliners ie A380 v SAAB 340.
Also why should light aircraft make a steeper approach? It is all a distance to threshold against altitude. If you are making a steeper approach then you are making more work in the hold off and will be high on the start of final.
GFO69 - PAPIS will work for a bumble bee if he has the eyesight to see them. But even if he has, he wouldn't bother 'cause it wouldn't be appropriate.
Why should a light single make a steeper (than 3 degree?) approach?
Are you serious?
SSD
Also why should light aircraft make a steeper approach? It is all a distance to threshold against altitude. If you are making a steeper approach then you are making more work in the hold off and will be high on the start of final.
GFO69 - PAPIS will work for a bumble bee if he has the eyesight to see them. But even if he has, he wouldn't bother 'cause it wouldn't be appropriate.
Why should a light single make a steeper (than 3 degree?) approach?
Are you serious?
SSD
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because of excess use of/use of the PAPI
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Flyin Dutch.......my sentiments exactly.
He's a guy who is learning and he was looking for an answer to a simple question.
I have removed myself from this forum for a couple of weeks now due to the bickering, "cleverness" and "I should be an instructor" attitude that so many people seem to be adopting on these threads.
Reading this thread so far from start to finish I wouldn't be surprised if the Flying Spice decided to take up macrami or windsurfing instead.
It seems to have become a test of everyones knowledge at any expense or opportunity recently, and it 'aint what it used to be here.
Spiceman, if you want to use the PAPI's then use them. I expect your instructor will soon get you off them with some PAPI patches or something so you'll be nicely prepared for your first Compton Abbas trip where they line up the sheep in a similar shape.
He's a guy who is learning and he was looking for an answer to a simple question.
I have removed myself from this forum for a couple of weeks now due to the bickering, "cleverness" and "I should be an instructor" attitude that so many people seem to be adopting on these threads.
Reading this thread so far from start to finish I wouldn't be surprised if the Flying Spice decided to take up macrami or windsurfing instead.
It seems to have become a test of everyones knowledge at any expense or opportunity recently, and it 'aint what it used to be here.
Spiceman, if you want to use the PAPI's then use them. I expect your instructor will soon get you off them with some PAPI patches or something so you'll be nicely prepared for your first Compton Abbas trip where they line up the sheep in a similar shape.
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Flying Spice - Hello and welcome!
May I point you towards this great article from Budd Davisson on the subject.
It says everything I want say, but in a way someone might understand!!
Hit The Spot
Kingy
May I point you towards this great article from Budd Davisson on the subject.
It says everything I want say, but in a way someone might understand!!
Hit The Spot
Kingy
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Calm down everyone. Have a look at this-
http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic....er=asc&start=0
I think someone is pulling our plonker
(Not for the only time today - Hi Flyer Forum).
Mr.W
http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic....er=asc&start=0
I think someone is pulling our plonker
(Not for the only time today - Hi Flyer Forum).
Mr.W