Intro to Aeros - some advice please
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Hampshire
Intro to Aeros - some advice please
Hi all,
I'm interested in starting aerobatics training and am based in West London, so White Waltham and Wycombe are the most convenient. Wycombe do an intro course in a C150 (I think) and White Waltham/David Cassidy does dual training in a Pitts.
I've got 180 hrs TT, IMC and MEP ratings but no taildragger experience and only 1 hour with a stick! For obvious reasons training in a Pitts has great appeal but I'm a bit concerned that it may be trying to run before walking.
I'd be grateful for any input especially from those of you who fly aeros.
W
I'm interested in starting aerobatics training and am based in West London, so White Waltham and Wycombe are the most convenient. Wycombe do an intro course in a C150 (I think) and White Waltham/David Cassidy does dual training in a Pitts.
I've got 180 hrs TT, IMC and MEP ratings but no taildragger experience and only 1 hour with a stick! For obvious reasons training in a Pitts has great appeal but I'm a bit concerned that it may be trying to run before walking.
I'd be grateful for any input especially from those of you who fly aeros.
W
Joined: May 2001
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From: London, UK
do it in the pitts - the instructor will do all the dull stuff like landing so that you can concentrate on improving your aeros - if you want to learn taildragging do a second course in a cub or similar. aeros in a c150 won't help you unless all you want is a basic intro...
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Reading UK
CAP10
There is another company that does aerobatic training based at White Waltham. This is the London Aerobatic Company who use the CAP10B for training. They sell themselves as a "gentler introduction to aerobatics" 
Their website can be found here.
Their website can be found here.
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From: The Heart
Aerobatic pilots don't consider the 150 an aerobatic aircraft so if you can't get to the Tiger Club at Headcorn then I'd suggest the Cap 10, as above.
Once you've got a bit of tailwheel time and mastered basic aeros you will better appreciate the Pitts; it's reputation is both better and worse than it really is!
Once you've got a bit of tailwheel time and mastered basic aeros you will better appreciate the Pitts; it's reputation is both better and worse than it really is!
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From: Chichester, UK
I'd also go for the CAP10 - it is a fantastic aeroplane and I think it's probably a more practical choice too. If you get hooked on aeros (if? of course you will 
) then you'll want to fly something aerobatic afterwards, and the CAP10 is closer to the kind of aeroplane you can easily (and cheaply!) hire. I'd love a go in a Pitts or Extra, but i kind of doubt that aeros in a Pitts have much in common with the Robin or 152 Aerobat you'll probably find yourself in afterwards.
Of course, if money isn't an issue learn on the Pitts ... and keep flying it afterwards
) then you'll want to fly something aerobatic afterwards, and the CAP10 is closer to the kind of aeroplane you can easily (and cheaply!) hire. I'd love a go in a Pitts or Extra, but i kind of doubt that aeros in a Pitts have much in common with the Robin or 152 Aerobat you'll probably find yourself in afterwards. Of course, if money isn't an issue learn on the Pitts ... and keep flying it afterwards
High Flying Bird
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From: Old Sarum ish
I'm another fan of the Cap10B ... although I've only logged 35 min (but that was with Cas Smith). 
It's a lovely aircraft, which is really responsive, but gentle.
As with every other aspect of aviation - don't commit yourself until you've had a go. If you get on with the Pitts, and can afford it, go for it.
Lucky sod.
It's a lovely aircraft, which is really responsive, but gentle.As with every other aspect of aviation - don't commit yourself until you've had a go. If you get on with the Pitts, and can afford it, go for it.
Lucky sod.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Home
The most important thing with aerobatics is the instructor. The aeroplane is secondary.
Alan Cassidy is one of the most respected aerobatics instructors you will find (unfortunately I've never flown with him, but others here have), and the Pitts is a lot of fun. It also climbs to aerobatic training height very quickly which is useful.
However, having said that, I'm not sure I'd recommnd the Pitts or the Cap initially.
Some manouvers in the Pitts are too easy. You can fly a passable roll just by moving the stick to one side for a couple of seconds. Try that in something with a slower roll rate, and you will quickly realise just how little you know about rolling! On the other hand, if you can successfully roll a Cessna (or a Slingsby, or Robin, or Citabria, or Chipmunk, or... ) I guarantee you'll be able to roll the Pitts.
Similarly the Pitts will fly a passable stall turn with quite a range of entry speeds, whereas a lot of lower powered types need just the right speed and have to be "coaxed" a bit more.
The Pitts has a constant speed prop, which makes life very easy when flying aeros. But in the early days of aerobatics, it's not a bad thing to fly with a fixed pitch prop, and develop a healthy concern for not overspeeding the engine. It's a bit like driving a car with a manual gearbox - you can convert to an automatic very easily, but if you learn in an auto it takes longer to convert to the manual.
As for the Cap, it's delightful - but has a couple of drawbacks. First is the current (and hopefully temporary) restriction of the G limits. You can very easily overstress it, so your instructor will have to take control early if manouvers go a bit wrong. It's not a bad thing to develop a slight paranoia about overstressing, and to always glance at the accelerometer as you pull into a manouver, but in the early days it's perhaps nicer to be able to screw things up without worrying about pulling the wings off.
Second drawback of the Cap is that it's also a bit easy. The roll rate isn't Pitts fast, but it's way faster than a lot of other machines.
The ideal solution, in my opinion, is to find a goodinstructor with a draggy aeroplane that doesn't roll too quickly, but which has a decent rate of climb so you don't waste too much time climbing.
Good luck!
Alan Cassidy is one of the most respected aerobatics instructors you will find (unfortunately I've never flown with him, but others here have), and the Pitts is a lot of fun. It also climbs to aerobatic training height very quickly which is useful.
However, having said that, I'm not sure I'd recommnd the Pitts or the Cap initially.
Some manouvers in the Pitts are too easy. You can fly a passable roll just by moving the stick to one side for a couple of seconds. Try that in something with a slower roll rate, and you will quickly realise just how little you know about rolling! On the other hand, if you can successfully roll a Cessna (or a Slingsby, or Robin, or Citabria, or Chipmunk, or... ) I guarantee you'll be able to roll the Pitts.
Similarly the Pitts will fly a passable stall turn with quite a range of entry speeds, whereas a lot of lower powered types need just the right speed and have to be "coaxed" a bit more.
The Pitts has a constant speed prop, which makes life very easy when flying aeros. But in the early days of aerobatics, it's not a bad thing to fly with a fixed pitch prop, and develop a healthy concern for not overspeeding the engine. It's a bit like driving a car with a manual gearbox - you can convert to an automatic very easily, but if you learn in an auto it takes longer to convert to the manual.
As for the Cap, it's delightful - but has a couple of drawbacks. First is the current (and hopefully temporary) restriction of the G limits. You can very easily overstress it, so your instructor will have to take control early if manouvers go a bit wrong. It's not a bad thing to develop a slight paranoia about overstressing, and to always glance at the accelerometer as you pull into a manouver, but in the early days it's perhaps nicer to be able to screw things up without worrying about pulling the wings off.
Second drawback of the Cap is that it's also a bit easy. The roll rate isn't Pitts fast, but it's way faster than a lot of other machines.
The ideal solution, in my opinion, is to find a goodinstructor with a draggy aeroplane that doesn't roll too quickly, but which has a decent rate of climb so you don't waste too much time climbing.
Good luck!
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: South Norfolk, England
Hi Walkabout,
Why do you want to do aero's? Thrill seeking? .... no? well at least I hope not. Frankly, judging by some of the replies you've had I wonder if that isn't what motivates too many
Aerobatics are about fine tuning a skill, about getting the best out of both yourself and your machine. They are about grace, finesse and dare I say it ... they are Art!
If you trully want to learn how to be aerobatic then you must first trully know how to fly accurately and with panash. People saying that landing a Pitts is just "the dull stuff" is like telling you that a well balenced oversteer in a rally car is just "going around a bend" Find a true aerobatic pilot and he won't say that he considers a C150 not to be aerobatic; he might say that it's not really competitive any more, but he'll never say the former!
Don't worry if your mount is a lowly 150 if that's in your price range. You will learn a lot in anything with the right instructor. Indeed, CAP10's, Pitts ect ect are fine aerobatic aircraft ... but ask yourself if they are not too good? what will you fly after? Will it be a small homebuilt? a Chipmunk or something similar? Will all that power, those crisp roll rates ect teach you about power management, adverse yaw with large control inputs and all the other problems. They will flatter you and make you feel like you are good ... but will you be?
So, my advice is firstly, find a good aerobatic instructor who will teach you ... not just show you. Secondly, don't be swayed by those who think aerobatics are about sexy aeroplanes and impressing the girlfriend. And thirdly, well .... do it because you really want to but do it properly
Have Fun
IM
Why do you want to do aero's? Thrill seeking? .... no? well at least I hope not. Frankly, judging by some of the replies you've had I wonder if that isn't what motivates too many
Aerobatics are about fine tuning a skill, about getting the best out of both yourself and your machine. They are about grace, finesse and dare I say it ... they are Art!
If you trully want to learn how to be aerobatic then you must first trully know how to fly accurately and with panash. People saying that landing a Pitts is just "the dull stuff" is like telling you that a well balenced oversteer in a rally car is just "going around a bend" Find a true aerobatic pilot and he won't say that he considers a C150 not to be aerobatic; he might say that it's not really competitive any more, but he'll never say the former!
Don't worry if your mount is a lowly 150 if that's in your price range. You will learn a lot in anything with the right instructor. Indeed, CAP10's, Pitts ect ect are fine aerobatic aircraft ... but ask yourself if they are not too good? what will you fly after? Will it be a small homebuilt? a Chipmunk or something similar? Will all that power, those crisp roll rates ect teach you about power management, adverse yaw with large control inputs and all the other problems. They will flatter you and make you feel like you are good ... but will you be?
So, my advice is firstly, find a good aerobatic instructor who will teach you ... not just show you. Secondly, don't be swayed by those who think aerobatics are about sexy aeroplanes and impressing the girlfriend. And thirdly, well .... do it because you really want to but do it properly
Have Fun
IM
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: South Norfolk, England
Opps! Seems I was writing my last message at the same time that aerobatic flyer was posting his. I'd echo what he says and it's nice to see someone else on the same wavelength.
Also sorry if my post comes across as a bit sanctamonious (spelt wrong I'm sure). In the cold light of day (well cold dark of morning actually) it does read a bit OTT.
IM
Also sorry if my post comes across as a bit sanctamonious (spelt wrong I'm sure). In the cold light of day (well cold dark of morning actually) it does read a bit OTT.
IM
Joined: May 2002
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From: Melbourne, Australia
The Melbourne Aerobatic Club held a workshop here last week on this very subject. Advice was similar to that provided by shortstripper and AerobaticFlyer.
What's your objective? Sunday afternoon loops or something more serious (but be warned - aerobatics is addictive).
Do you want to stick to tricycle gear aeroplanes or not?
There are instructors who'll teach basic aerobatics in a Pitts and others have commented on the pros and cons of that. The Cessna Aerobat is a great little aerobatic trainer. The Decathlon is an excellent aerobatic trainer.
The above considerations should result in a shortlist of flying schools. The final step is to choose a good instructor and some-one that you'll get on with.
What's your objective? Sunday afternoon loops or something more serious (but be warned - aerobatics is addictive).
Do you want to stick to tricycle gear aeroplanes or not?
There are instructors who'll teach basic aerobatics in a Pitts and others have commented on the pros and cons of that. The Cessna Aerobat is a great little aerobatic trainer. The Decathlon is an excellent aerobatic trainer.
The above considerations should result in a shortlist of flying schools. The final step is to choose a good instructor and some-one that you'll get on with.
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From: Norfolk
I agree with most of SS and AF's posts, too. I currently campaign a Pitts but did my initial aeros in a Citabria with a great lady instructor, then some in a C150A taildragger, then moved onto the CAP before the Pitts.
Learning the basics on the lower powered machines was definetely a bonus.
Walkabout, you wrote:- White Waltham/David Cassidy does dual training in a Pitts
At the Advanced/Unlimited Nationals this year, the contest director suggested that Alan Cassidy (having won the Unlimited trophy for the 3rd time), formerly known as "Uncle" be called, "The Master".
Personally, I think that David is a far better appelation - you did make me laugh!
Whatever you do aerobatic-wise - do try and enjoy it, it will grow on you!
Stik
Learning the basics on the lower powered machines was definetely a bonus.
Walkabout, you wrote:- White Waltham/David Cassidy does dual training in a Pitts
At the Advanced/Unlimited Nationals this year, the contest director suggested that Alan Cassidy (having won the Unlimited trophy for the 3rd time), formerly known as "Uncle" be called, "The Master".
Personally, I think that David is a far better appelation - you did make me laugh!
Whatever you do aerobatic-wise - do try and enjoy it, it will grow on you!
Stik
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Hampshire
Thanks everyone for the input and good advice.
AF - hear all you say but location (time constraints) are a problem for me and I'm struggling to find your ideal suggestion in my area - unless you/anyone else have any ideas? Otherwise I think I'll start on the CAP10 at WW (according to their web site, the instructors are well qualified, although I can't actually find anything on aero instruction/ors at Wycombe) and try the Pitts (price differential is actually 'only' £16/hr) when/if I reach a level of competence.
Shortstripper - couldn't agree more about attitude, but don't agree that professional, accurate flying and the thrill factor are mutually exclusive - rather the contrary given the right attitude.
djpil - I don't think I'll be able to be firm on my objective until I've tried and seen how I get on with it........although a friend of a very good mate of mine tells me 'it's better than s*x', and he's French.......! I hope he's right.
Thanks again for all the input and apologies to Alan Cassidy for mixing him up in my first post with a 70's teenie pop idol. Will post to let let you know how I got on.
Stik
Our posts crossed - I was hoping I'd got away with the David bit and I'd be the one to correct it (I haven't worked out edit yet) but well spotted!
Point taken (finally) on lower powered machines, I'll do a bit more research on the instruction at Wycombe and decide then.
Thanks all.
W
AF - hear all you say but location (time constraints) are a problem for me and I'm struggling to find your ideal suggestion in my area - unless you/anyone else have any ideas? Otherwise I think I'll start on the CAP10 at WW (according to their web site, the instructors are well qualified, although I can't actually find anything on aero instruction/ors at Wycombe) and try the Pitts (price differential is actually 'only' £16/hr) when/if I reach a level of competence.
Shortstripper - couldn't agree more about attitude, but don't agree that professional, accurate flying and the thrill factor are mutually exclusive - rather the contrary given the right attitude.
djpil - I don't think I'll be able to be firm on my objective until I've tried and seen how I get on with it........although a friend of a very good mate of mine tells me 'it's better than s*x', and he's French.......! I hope he's right.
Thanks again for all the input and apologies to Alan Cassidy for mixing him up in my first post with a 70's teenie pop idol. Will post to let let you know how I got on.
Stik
Our posts crossed - I was hoping I'd got away with the David bit and I'd be the one to correct it (I haven't worked out edit yet) but well spotted!
Point taken (finally) on lower powered machines, I'll do a bit more research on the instruction at Wycombe and decide then.
Thanks all.
W
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: The Front of Beyond
Walkabout,
The Aerobats at Wycombe are 152s, not 150s so have a bit more power (118bhp engines I think). However, I'm not sure which of the instructors are qualified to teach aeros though.
Brooklands
The Aerobats at Wycombe are 152s, not 150s so have a bit more power (118bhp engines I think). However, I'm not sure which of the instructors are qualified to teach aeros though.
Brooklands
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Home
price differential is actually 'only' £16/hr
This is all the more the case at the moment, as the Cap is currently limited to +4.3g dual. This is very limiting for basic training.
Whatever you do, I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun!
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From: The Heart
Shortstripper,
Whereas I agree totally with you regarding aerobatics being art and the inner development, I stand by my post and I'll tell you why. (And at no extra charge!)
The initial post asks for advice, Cessna, Cap or Pitts. My reply gives a definite opinion and offers a further possibility, Stampe, Slingsby or Tiger Moth, with very experienced instructors.
Re. the Cessna Aerobat. Just take a look at all the other types listed in this thread and you'll notice that they are all types which have aerobatics in their design briefs. The Cessna does not. It is a very ordinary aircraft which has been beefed up a little here and there to be made 'capable' of aerobatics.
Furthermore, which of the other aerobatic aircraft have a yoke? None!
It reminds me of the Russian coach who didn't understand the question when he was asked what power setting he recommended for aerobatics. "Full Power, of course!" he replied, eventually.
That is to say, when I fly IFR I take an instrument equipped aircraft. When I fly aeros, I fly an aerobatic aircraft.
From what I understand of your post, you are yourself guilty of the beefing up of the Pitts reputation. It is neither as difficult to take off and land as is made out or as easy to fly accurate aerobatics in.
Whereas I agree totally with you regarding aerobatics being art and the inner development, I stand by my post and I'll tell you why. (And at no extra charge!)
The initial post asks for advice, Cessna, Cap or Pitts. My reply gives a definite opinion and offers a further possibility, Stampe, Slingsby or Tiger Moth, with very experienced instructors.
Re. the Cessna Aerobat. Just take a look at all the other types listed in this thread and you'll notice that they are all types which have aerobatics in their design briefs. The Cessna does not. It is a very ordinary aircraft which has been beefed up a little here and there to be made 'capable' of aerobatics.
Furthermore, which of the other aerobatic aircraft have a yoke? None!
It reminds me of the Russian coach who didn't understand the question when he was asked what power setting he recommended for aerobatics. "Full Power, of course!" he replied, eventually.
That is to say, when I fly IFR I take an instrument equipped aircraft. When I fly aeros, I fly an aerobatic aircraft.
From what I understand of your post, you are yourself guilty of the beefing up of the Pitts reputation. It is neither as difficult to take off and land as is made out or as easy to fly accurate aerobatics in.
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
Brooklands I think you'll find that the 152 US built Aerobats have LESS power than the Reims built 150 Aerobats cos they had the 130hp O-240 engine in them. However, I think there are one or two US built 150 Aerobats around with the 100hp O-200 though.
The only aeros I've flown have been in an Aerobat and I thought it was loads of fun. Also nice to be doing it in an aircraft that I was already familiar with. The 130hp engine was a real bonus in the climb.
The only aeros I've flown have been in an Aerobat and I thought it was loads of fun. Also nice to be doing it in an aircraft that I was already familiar with. The 130hp engine was a real bonus in the climb.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: South Norfolk, England
Miserlou ...
Fair comment. As you'll see from my following post I did find my own post a bit OTT on reading it later and apologised.
I'm quite aware that the C150 wasn't designed as an aerobatic mount and that a Pitt's isn't as difficult to land as some suggest. My objection was more to the idea that aero's could be treated as just a quick add on (re ... the rest of a flight being the dull bit ). I also think that initially learning aero's is more about learning to fly accurately, managing power and acclimatising to unusual attitudes. This can be done equally well in a C150 as a CAP or Pitt's, but at a fraction of the price. Indeed, I started by self learning fairly gentle aero's in a glider. I'm not a greatly experienced aerobatic pilot but found that this humble introduction made simple powered aero's in a homebuilt Tempete a fairly simple transition ... well maybe not! but you'll know kinda what I mean.
I'm sure whatever aeroplane walkabout decides to use he/she'll have fun ... however, at C150 prices more practice initially will be affordable. He/she could then do more advanced stuff in a CAP or Pitt's later.
IM
Fair comment. As you'll see from my following post I did find my own post a bit OTT on reading it later and apologised.
I'm quite aware that the C150 wasn't designed as an aerobatic mount and that a Pitt's isn't as difficult to land as some suggest. My objection was more to the idea that aero's could be treated as just a quick add on (re ... the rest of a flight being the dull bit ). I also think that initially learning aero's is more about learning to fly accurately, managing power and acclimatising to unusual attitudes. This can be done equally well in a C150 as a CAP or Pitt's, but at a fraction of the price. Indeed, I started by self learning fairly gentle aero's in a glider. I'm not a greatly experienced aerobatic pilot but found that this humble introduction made simple powered aero's in a homebuilt Tempete a fairly simple transition ... well maybe not! but you'll know kinda what I mean.
I'm sure whatever aeroplane walkabout decides to use he/she'll have fun ... however, at C150 prices more practice initially will be affordable. He/she could then do more advanced stuff in a CAP or Pitt's later.
IM
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Hampshire
Well I have checked out Wycombe, at least their prices, and for £141/hr I get to do a 'gentle introduction to aerobatics' in a Cessna 152 Aerobat..........not the bargain basement price I suspect some of you had in mind, but that's London/M25 prices for you - I suppose I've just become immune to them and the MEP rating helps with that as well! The alternatives are £185/hr in a CAP10 or £201/hr in a Pitts with Alan Cassidy. As I've said, because of work/home committments, all other locations are non-starters.
Although the rationale for starting in the Aerobat doesn't change, given the quality of the instructor in the Pitts, and the relative prices per hour (152's only 30% cheaper than the Pitts), isn't the Pitts beginning to look like the most attractive relative option? I realise I'm starting to talk myself into this, so please feel free to tell me otherwise!
Evo/AerBabe/Miserlou - have you experienced any stress issues with the CAP10 as mentioned by AF whilst under training?
Thanks again all.
Although the rationale for starting in the Aerobat doesn't change, given the quality of the instructor in the Pitts, and the relative prices per hour (152's only 30% cheaper than the Pitts), isn't the Pitts beginning to look like the most attractive relative option? I realise I'm starting to talk myself into this, so please feel free to tell me otherwise!
Evo/AerBabe/Miserlou - have you experienced any stress issues with the CAP10 as mentioned by AF whilst under training?
Thanks again all.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Home
£141 !!!
The +4.3g limit applies since September 24th, when an AD was issued on the Cap 10B. The G limits which were +6/-4.5 were reduced to +5/-3.5 when flown solo, and +4.3/-3.5 dual. These limits must be placarded, and if they are exceeded the aircraft must be grounded, and the manufacturer and CAA informed.
Here's a link to the french language AD.
Stick forces in the Cap are quite light, and +4.3g is easy to exceed.
have you experienced any stress issues with the CAP10 as mentioned by AF whilst under training?
Here's a link to the french language AD.
Stick forces in the Cap are quite light, and +4.3g is easy to exceed.