Getting those four adults into a C172...
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Getting those four adults into a C172...
Probably start off a flame war here, but I would appreciate people's views.
On occasion, I would love to take 4 adults up. All I have easily at my disposal are normal 4 seat trainers (160 HP Warriors or C172s).
Received wisdom says don't do it.
The alternative is problematic. Travel to a field 1 hr away, and rent an Arrow at c£150 per hour (that's after x hours complex conversion training).
Yet, at my airfield, you often see 4 well built adults (including an instructor) getting into a 172 and taking off on a pleasure flight. When asked how they do it, the reply goes something like: "sure you can take 4 adults up... but you better check the weight and balance.
So the other day, I got the documentation out on the best Warrior and C172 where I fly, and did some calcs.
The C172 has the advantage, in that it is much lighter, but has about the same load bearing as the Warrior. My heart rose when I figured out that, in terms of weight, I could take off with 2 * 13 Stone adults in the front, 2 * 11 Stone adults in the back, 28 lbs of baggage, and a half tank of fuel... just.
My heart promptly sank when the C of G was way aft of the limit (38.5" at full weight is the limit, and I had calculated the above load at 44").
So... what to do.
1) Only make friends with very light adults or mature infants.
2) Bite the bullet and convert to the Arrow (could be fun), but that inpromptu trip to L2K would lose a lot of the shine.
3) Figure out how the instructors manage to take off in a heavily loaded 172...
4) Buy the right plane or join a Group in something decent. This option is not for me at the moment - can do without the strings.
5) Your option here...
On occasion, I would love to take 4 adults up. All I have easily at my disposal are normal 4 seat trainers (160 HP Warriors or C172s).
Received wisdom says don't do it.
The alternative is problematic. Travel to a field 1 hr away, and rent an Arrow at c£150 per hour (that's after x hours complex conversion training).
Yet, at my airfield, you often see 4 well built adults (including an instructor) getting into a 172 and taking off on a pleasure flight. When asked how they do it, the reply goes something like: "sure you can take 4 adults up... but you better check the weight and balance.
So the other day, I got the documentation out on the best Warrior and C172 where I fly, and did some calcs.
The C172 has the advantage, in that it is much lighter, but has about the same load bearing as the Warrior. My heart rose when I figured out that, in terms of weight, I could take off with 2 * 13 Stone adults in the front, 2 * 11 Stone adults in the back, 28 lbs of baggage, and a half tank of fuel... just.
My heart promptly sank when the C of G was way aft of the limit (38.5" at full weight is the limit, and I had calculated the above load at 44").
So... what to do.
1) Only make friends with very light adults or mature infants.
2) Bite the bullet and convert to the Arrow (could be fun), but that inpromptu trip to L2K would lose a lot of the shine.
3) Figure out how the instructors manage to take off in a heavily loaded 172...
4) Buy the right plane or join a Group in something decent. This option is not for me at the moment - can do without the strings.
5) Your option here...
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I've only flown 4-up in a basic trainer once - it was a PA28, and one of the four was my 12-year-old (and small for her age) cousin. Fuelled to the tabs, which came in at just under the max allowable weight. I don't recall any CofG problems, so if that's a problem with your C172 then it may be worth checking out the PA28. I do remember that it used a hell of a lot of runway!!!
FFF
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FFF
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KCDW, I have simillar problems with C172.
As the aircraft is run by the club, and slot times are a premium, (and I havn't worked out how to empty the fuel), I have to assume that the tanks are full prior to departure.
If I am taking myself (16st), fat knacker brother (18.5st), and flight bag (10lb), and assume full tanks, then I have 6lb to spare on take off !
Incidentally, the aircraft handles well, but I notice that I need lower nose attitude on initial climb out.
As the aircraft is run by the club, and slot times are a premium, (and I havn't worked out how to empty the fuel), I have to assume that the tanks are full prior to departure.
If I am taking myself (16st), fat knacker brother (18.5st), and flight bag (10lb), and assume full tanks, then I have 6lb to spare on take off !
Incidentally, the aircraft handles well, but I notice that I need lower nose attitude on initial climb out.
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I've had 4 up in a PA28 with tabs fuel (about 4 hours) and the two in the back were large marines and we did weight and balance checks which were just OK for both max weight and CofG. Might have been a 180 though.
I have also read on proon that the Arrow can't take 4 up with max fuel anyway though I've never tried that myself so can't comment.
I have also read on proon that the Arrow can't take 4 up with max fuel anyway though I've never tried that myself so can't comment.
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People who love sausage and airplanes shouldn't try to make one look like the other, as did the operator of a 172B in September in Florida. During the turn to crosswind, the airplane descended into the trees.
The pilot reported that the airplane's fuel tanks were filled to capacity just before the flight. Aboard were the pilot, who weighed about 250 pounds, the right front passenger at 300 pounds and the positively svelte rear seat passenger, a mere 200 pounds. A 50-pound bag of sand was found in the rear of the baggage compartment.
The pilot reported that the airplane's fuel tanks were filled to capacity just before the flight. Aboard were the pilot, who weighed about 250 pounds, the right front passenger at 300 pounds and the positively svelte rear seat passenger, a mere 200 pounds. A 50-pound bag of sand was found in the rear of the baggage compartment.
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Interesting comments so far - but no solutions!
Evo - very funny
, but I'm not talking extremes here.
Aim far - Had to be a 180 HP unit, the 160 just didn't cut it in my calculations.
gingernut - ... but at least you didn't have that critical 50lbs of sand in the back . Anyway, with no one benind you and your brother, the C of G would probably have been fine.
Its the two in the back and the baggage which kills the deal....
Keep them coming...
Evo - very funny
, but I'm not talking extremes here.Aim far - Had to be a 180 HP unit, the 160 just didn't cut it in my calculations.
gingernut - ... but at least you didn't have that critical 50lbs of sand in the back
. Anyway, with no one benind you and your brother, the C of G would probably have been fine. Its the two in the back and the baggage which kills the deal....
Keep them coming...
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Solution? Find a 160hp Robin DR400, which will take 4 normal sized adults and plenty of fuel, and still be within weight and C or G limits.
I was once lured by the prospect of a free flight into flying an overloaded Warrior. We had two aircraft mechanics in the back, an instructor (who should have known better) in the right seat, and me (who also should have known better....
) flying. Add to that nearly full fuel, and we were way over weight -
The instructor said it was fine, and I naively believed him. We needed 900m to take off, then climbed at maybe 200fpm. It was a slightly frightening experience, which I don't recommend trying for yourself!
I was once lured by the prospect of a free flight into flying an overloaded Warrior. We had two aircraft mechanics in the back, an instructor (who should have known better) in the right seat, and me (who also should have known better....
) flying. Add to that nearly full fuel, and we were way over weight - The instructor said it was fine, and I naively believed him. We needed 900m to take off, then climbed at maybe 200fpm. It was a slightly frightening experience, which I don't recommend trying for yourself!
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I am surprised you ended up with a CofG issue, the usual issue is simply with 900ish lbs of useable weight 4 * 200lb people and fuel is hard to fit in. With that load distribution it should be in CofG limits. Check another plane's W&B if it is an issue.
There are people who seem to fly over MAUW regularly. Look at any 152 with 2 people and full tanks. If you do that you need to accept the consequence if there is an accident, ie no insurance and coffee with no biscuits at the CAA after the accident.
The arrow is a nice plane for 4 up and a good plane to graduate onto. You could do worse.
There are people who seem to fly over MAUW regularly. Look at any 152 with 2 people and full tanks. If you do that you need to accept the consequence if there is an accident, ie no insurance and coffee with no biscuits at the CAA after the accident.
The arrow is a nice plane for 4 up and a good plane to graduate onto. You could do worse.
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The C172 has the advantage, in that it is much lighter, but has about the same load bearing as the Warrior. My heart rose when I figured out that, in terms of weight, I could take off with 2 * 13 Stone adults in the front, 2 * 11 Stone adults in the back, 28 lbs of baggage, and a half tank of fuel... just.
My heart promptly sank when the C of G was way aft of the limit (38.5" at full weight is the limit, and I had calculated the above load at 44").
My heart promptly sank when the C of G was way aft of the limit (38.5" at full weight is the limit, and I had calculated the above load at 44").
MC.
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Most instructors have done the, just filled up and 3 fat punters turn up for a trial flight.
Which is what you have seen at the club.
Is it illegal yes.
Is it done every weekend somewhere in the UK yes.
Would I advise it no as an Instructor you tend to get bitten but because you are very current you get away with it. Once was enough for me.
If you do do it, stick 10knts on your Vr and go for a cruise climb not Vy
By the time you have flown for 1 hr the fuel burn the weight should be back to max for landing.
I have seen photo planes with full long range tanks fitted 2 people on board and 50kgs of gear. It took the whole of the runway to get off the gound which we normally would only take an 8th.
I would go for the arrow whats an extra 300 quid when your playing with peoples lifes.
MJ
Which is what you have seen at the club.
Is it illegal yes.
Is it done every weekend somewhere in the UK yes.
Would I advise it no as an Instructor you tend to get bitten but because you are very current you get away with it. Once was enough for me.
If you do do it, stick 10knts on your Vr and go for a cruise climb not Vy
By the time you have flown for 1 hr the fuel burn the weight should be back to max for landing.
I have seen photo planes with full long range tanks fitted 2 people on board and 50kgs of gear. It took the whole of the runway to get off the gound which we normally would only take an 8th.
I would go for the arrow whats an extra 300 quid when your playing with peoples lifes.
MJ
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Slightly Related Issue - C182 W&B Data
(as usual, I'm firing off at a tangent, but here we go anyway )
Due to my flying slot in a C182 being cancelled yesterday (due low cloud at Perth), I spent some time on groundschool for wobbly props with an instructor and then spent some time copying info from the POH and the Aircraft Weighing Certificate so that I could make my own spreadsheet for calculating W&B.
I somehow managed not to write down what the arm was for the Rear Pax (front seat crew was 37" for comparison purposes). I made an estimate just to test the spreadsheet and with pretty well any combination of flying configurations, I always get the CofG sitting too far forward. This is a spreadsheet which has worked find for the Fuji and I have tweaked it for the 182.
I will be at the club on Friday for another attempt (so will double check all the relevant data then), but if anyone can give me an indication of the Rear Seat Arm in inches, I would be most grateful, as it will allow me to test the spreadsheet before I use it.
)Due to my flying slot in a C182 being cancelled yesterday (due low cloud at Perth), I spent some time on groundschool for wobbly props with an instructor and then spent some time copying info from the POH and the Aircraft Weighing Certificate so that I could make my own spreadsheet for calculating W&B.
I somehow managed not to write down what the arm was for the Rear Pax (front seat crew was 37" for comparison purposes). I made an estimate just to test the spreadsheet and with pretty well any combination of flying configurations, I always get the CofG sitting too far forward. This is a spreadsheet which has worked find for the Fuji and I have tweaked it for the 182.
I will be at the club on Friday for another attempt (so will double check all the relevant data then), but if anyone can give me an indication of the Rear Seat Arm in inches, I would be most grateful, as it will allow me to test the spreadsheet before I use it.
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Again, thanks for the comments - some very good food for thought.
I'll recheck the C172 docs. They were very grubby to be fair, and I may have got the wrong stats. Its a Reims F C172 BTW.
As it happens there is a Robin DR400 for hire at my field, and I'm told it has marginally better load bearing that the C172 - anyone able to verify this (say use the load example above)?
I guess Mad Jocks comments are very pertinent. I don't want to do it illegally. But if I can get within the target loading above, then, I will be happy.
The Arrow is still a possibility, it would be good to have the extra power, and an alternative route for going 4 up. As a slight side thread, those of you who have done complex conversion for similar reasons - was it worth it, do you use it regularly?
Thks
I'll recheck the C172 docs. They were very grubby to be fair, and I may have got the wrong stats. Its a Reims F C172 BTW.
As it happens there is a Robin DR400 for hire at my field, and I'm told it has marginally better load bearing that the C172 - anyone able to verify this (say use the load example above)?
I guess Mad Jocks comments are very pertinent. I don't want to do it illegally. But if I can get within the target loading above, then, I will be happy.
The Arrow is still a possibility, it would be good to have the extra power, and an alternative route for going 4 up. As a slight side thread, those of you who have done complex conversion for similar reasons - was it worth it, do you use it regularly?
Thks
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I was lucky to learn on a wobbly prop & injected engine, so only had to "step up" to retractable u/c to get in an Arrow a number of years ago.
"Is it worth it?" - well, that depends on what type of flying you want to do in the long term. Me- I enjoy filling the a/c with friends, luggage and fuel and going abroad for weekends/ hols - so definitely yes. I now really only tend to fly Cherokee Sixs, Saratogas & Arrows.
However many people seem happy bumbling round the local area, occasionally taking one or two people up.
So what type of flying will you be doing in the longer run? If it’s the first then check out the w&b on those a/c available to hire near you & do the conversion. If it’s the second, then why not split your friends & take them up in two trips?
PS - Do call up the owner of the Arrow you are referring to. Depending on the version, you may be surprised how poor its useful load is - an Archer can often be better.
"Is it worth it?" - well, that depends on what type of flying you want to do in the long term. Me- I enjoy filling the a/c with friends, luggage and fuel and going abroad for weekends/ hols - so definitely yes. I now really only tend to fly Cherokee Sixs, Saratogas & Arrows.
However many people seem happy bumbling round the local area, occasionally taking one or two people up.
So what type of flying will you be doing in the longer run? If it’s the first then check out the w&b on those a/c available to hire near you & do the conversion. If it’s the second, then why not split your friends & take them up in two trips?
PS - Do call up the owner of the Arrow you are referring to. Depending on the version, you may be surprised how poor its useful load is - an Archer can often be better.
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The Arrow is a 201. I thought 200 horses woud be plenty, but your comment vis the Archer made me think. Just did a quick trawl on the web and came up with these 2 pages which give a lot of food for thought (apart from the US hire rates that is
).
http://www.plusone.org/fleetover.html
http://www.ecas.com/resources/weight.html
In summary, the increase in usable load is really very marginal, by the time you fill up the tanks or go to tabs. Stick 4 tubbies, and a full tank in any one of these planes, and you're not getting off the ground legally!
).http://www.plusone.org/fleetover.html
http://www.ecas.com/resources/weight.html
In summary, the increase in usable load is really very marginal, by the time you fill up the tanks or go to tabs. Stick 4 tubbies, and a full tank in any one of these planes, and you're not getting off the ground legally!
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I think you are beginning to understand why most people take the risk and fly heavy.
And I have seen quite a few examiners fib about their weights on ppl tests just so the could go with full tanks. And I am talking 70-80kg fibs.
MJ
And I have seen quite a few examiners fib about their weights on ppl tests just so the could go with full tanks. And I am talking 70-80kg fibs.
MJ
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C182 Rear seat arm
Circuit Basher, my 182Q POH shows a front seat lever arm of 32.5 to 57 inches (and it would certainly be nearer 32 than 57 - I have a friend who is 6'7" and even he was only about half way back) and a rear set arm of 74".
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CB
My copy of ProPlan shows rear seat arm to be 74.02 in max wt 441 lb
The others are
Front 37.01 max 441 lb
Fuel 47.9 max 450 lb
Baggage A 96.85 max 119 lb
Baggage B 114.96 max 79 lb
Empty 1742lb at 37 in
mauw 2950 lb between 39.49 and 48.5
Not of course authoritative but may be useful.
Mike
My copy of ProPlan shows rear seat arm to be 74.02 in max wt 441 lb
The others are
Front 37.01 max 441 lb
Fuel 47.9 max 450 lb
Baggage A 96.85 max 119 lb
Baggage B 114.96 max 79 lb
Empty 1742lb at 37 in
mauw 2950 lb between 39.49 and 48.5
Not of course authoritative but may be useful.
Mike
Choose Thin Friends
Just looked at a C172N ground school manual.
With an empty weight of 1460# -- Check the sheet.
and full standard tanks and NO baggage
you and your passengers can weigh 600# with clothing.
With long range tanks, everybody has to go on a diet and get rid of 60#
I fell into that trap many years ago and flew once or twice with four seats filled and long range tanks and was maybe 100# overweight on takeoff.
V speed correction factor is 2% and of course climb and runway performance decreases.
With an empty weight of 1460# -- Check the sheet.
and full standard tanks and NO baggage
you and your passengers can weigh 600# with clothing.
With long range tanks, everybody has to go on a diet and get rid of 60#
I fell into that trap many years ago and flew once or twice with four seats filled and long range tanks and was maybe 100# overweight on takeoff.
V speed correction factor is 2% and of course climb and runway performance decreases.
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Folks, wait until you start hauling skydivers !
We used to carry 3 parachutists with their kit, plus me, plus fuel in a 172 - don't ask !
Then you go up to a 182 - now we are carrying 4 parachutists, plus me, plus fuel.
Now we digress and go down the 206/7 route. We have 5 in a 206 and 6 in a207, all climbing out around the door - 3 in, 3 out on the 207 - remember that Werski !
Or, you could go down the Lance or Cherokee 6 route - Mmmm 6 plus me in a Lance - book said it was OK, up at 10,000, 1 out, 5 in - we had some care for the c of g.
Oh, happy days !!
Now they get frit about an extra tart on an A320
We used to carry 3 parachutists with their kit, plus me, plus fuel in a 172 - don't ask !
Then you go up to a 182 - now we are carrying 4 parachutists, plus me, plus fuel.
Now we digress and go down the 206/7 route. We have 5 in a 206 and 6 in a207, all climbing out around the door - 3 in, 3 out on the 207 - remember that Werski !
Or, you could go down the Lance or Cherokee 6 route - Mmmm 6 plus me in a Lance - book said it was OK, up at 10,000, 1 out, 5 in - we had some care for the c of g.
Oh, happy days !!
Now they get frit about an extra tart on an A320
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Instructor (seeing if I can remember how to do a W&B for a C152): "Right Tim, you weigh 180lbs, don't you."
Me (innocently): "Haven't a clue."
I reach for the scales.
Instructor: "Don't you dare step on those scales!!"
Me (innocently): "Haven't a clue."
I reach for the scales.
Instructor: "Don't you dare step on those scales!!"