GPS Down?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
From: don't know, I'll ask
GPS Down?
Where are the GPS satellites? Used my GPS on Saturday without problem, tried to use I on Sunday flying from the Midlands to Norwich and nothing absolutely zip. Tried it in the car this morning, still zip. The unit switches on and does everything except get satellites. Before I run screaming to Garmin for help, have I missed some major GPS jamming? Did anyone else have similar problems?
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: England
Flew 5 hours yesterday NW to SE and back again GPS fine all day.
Look at your ariel.The standard portable ones supplied are cr*p!
If you can get one fitted to the aircraft.
I used to loose signal all the time using a Skyforce and the suction cup ariel. Since installing a panel mounted model and fitted ariel the thing has not so much as blinked!
Look at your ariel.The standard portable ones supplied are cr*p!
If you can get one fitted to the aircraft.
I used to loose signal all the time using a Skyforce and the suction cup ariel. Since installing a panel mounted model and fitted ariel the thing has not so much as blinked!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
From: UK
The above leads to a question - why does one have to pay a radio licence fee for uninterupted (i.e. monitored and secure) and then the "authorities" allow the military to jam the signals? Are they in breach of the agreement?
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
From: Chichester, UK
Chuck -
"When do the military jam the GPS signals?" It's quite frequently NOTAMed in the UK - often with a large radius, e.g.
see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=58536
"And where do they do this?" Off the top of my head I can remember Scotland, a NATO exercise in the Iceland-Faroes gap and the Bristol channel. As I said, it's quite common.
HTH
"When do the military jam the GPS signals?" It's quite frequently NOTAMed in the UK - often with a large radius, e.g.
AC 5555
07 JUL
1100-1400 30000ft (A1063/02pt)
08 JUL
0715-1015 30000ft (A1063/02pt)
GPS Jamming Activity 5555N 00550W rad 320nm
07 JUL
1100-1400 30000ft (A1063/02pt)
08 JUL
0715-1015 30000ft (A1063/02pt)
GPS Jamming Activity 5555N 00550W rad 320nm
"And where do they do this?" Off the top of my head I can remember Scotland, a NATO exercise in the Iceland-Faroes gap and the Bristol channel. As I said, it's quite common.
HTH
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
NorthSouth - why would it make any difference if GPS was approved for navigation?
ILSs, and to a lesser extent VORs, are regularly taken down for maintenance, etc. There are some NDBs which have been out of service for longer than I've been flying (which isn't all that long, but it's long enough to fix an NDB!) As long as it's properly NOTAMed, there's no reason why any navigation system shouldn't be taken out of service, especially if an alternative is available.
FFF
----------------
PS - UR, wasn't it the US military who did all those things? Can't see what relevance that has to us in the UK
ILSs, and to a lesser extent VORs, are regularly taken down for maintenance, etc. There are some NDBs which have been out of service for longer than I've been flying (which isn't all that long, but it's long enough to fix an NDB!) As long as it's properly NOTAMed, there's no reason why any navigation system shouldn't be taken out of service, especially if an alternative is available.
FFF
----------------
PS - UR, wasn't it the US military who did all those things? Can't see what relevance that has to us in the UK
Joined: Mar 2003
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 225
Likes: 21
From: London, England
The US DoD occasionally used to activate 'Selective Availabilty' which would degrade the accuracy of GPS for non-US military (or non-authorised) users randomly. Bill Clinton put a stop to this in (I think) May 2000. The trouble is that the GPS signal is so weak that it's relatively easy to attenuate and jam the signal. I was told that the signal strength is comparable to trying to see a 20 watt lightbulb from 10,000 miles away!
The US are working on methods of checking that GPS signals are accurate but I'm not sure what checking systems are available for it here in the UK.
I'm sure that most users are aware of the potential inaccuracy of GPS and would never rely on it as a primary navigation aid.
0918
The US are working on methods of checking that GPS signals are accurate but I'm not sure what checking systems are available for it here in the UK.
I'm sure that most users are aware of the potential inaccuracy of GPS and would never rely on it as a primary navigation aid.
0918
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
I was told that the signal strength is comparable to trying to see a 20 watt lightbulb from 10,000 miles away!
This is probably true but one could come up with an amazing statistic like this for most forms of radio communication!
GPS can indeed be jammed. There is a very interesting report from the US Volpe Institute (probably there's a link on the www somewhere; I know it is definitely online in their archives) which tells you all about it, how to jam it, and how to make a system less vulnerable to jamming. All this stuff has been in the public domain for many years.
But we come back to the not-subtle difference between using a GPS for sole navigation (which is daft) and using it for primary navigation (which is perfectly acceptable because you have an alternative).
The 99.9% or whatever of the time that GPS works perfectly, it is absolutely worth having. If it goes.... well your cockpit workload goes up considerably but that's about it. The biggest problem with GPS is that we have an army of traditionalists who fear that the moment a PPL gets a GPS he forgets all his map reading skills. True for some no doubt, but true for all??
This is probably true but one could come up with an amazing statistic like this for most forms of radio communication!
GPS can indeed be jammed. There is a very interesting report from the US Volpe Institute (probably there's a link on the www somewhere; I know it is definitely online in their archives) which tells you all about it, how to jam it, and how to make a system less vulnerable to jamming. All this stuff has been in the public domain for many years.
But we come back to the not-subtle difference between using a GPS for sole navigation (which is daft) and using it for primary navigation (which is perfectly acceptable because you have an alternative).
The 99.9% or whatever of the time that GPS works perfectly, it is absolutely worth having. If it goes.... well your cockpit workload goes up considerably but that's about it. The biggest problem with GPS is that we have an army of traditionalists who fear that the moment a PPL gets a GPS he forgets all his map reading skills. True for some no doubt, but true for all??
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
From: South East
I was of the understanding that GPS was set up by the US military for missile guidance. The accuracey of it to the civil world was slightly out off alignment.
This has changed now slightly, but it will still be subject to military interference.
Maps are still a wonderful thing.............Ok so I'm an ATCO that has had problems in the past with a minority of GA pilots relying on GPS and not looking at maps.
This has changed now slightly, but it will still be subject to military interference.
Maps are still a wonderful thing.............Ok so I'm an ATCO that has had problems in the past with a minority of GA pilots relying on GPS and not looking at maps.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: UK
To get back to the topic, myself and several of my mates have noticed that there is an area between Birmingham and Oxford where there is often no usable signal. Don't know why. But it's not a legal aid, we don't pay for it, so can't complain!
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
I don't see what is wrong in using a GPS as a primary navigation aid. It is very common in the USA.
I always draw my route on a map along with the wind and the radio frequencies that I need on route marked in the places I need to talk to people.
I then fly the course using the the map and GPS and radio nav aids as a back up. If the GPS signal fails (the unit is mains powered 196 with battery backup) then I just carry on with "conventional" navigation.
A stopwatch and ruler are out of the arc, I think pilots should learn about GPS as an aid to navigation as part of the basic PPL. I think GPS in combination with a map would save a lot of controllers the headaches caused by airspace busts and lost pilots. GPS is an excellant aid to situational awareness.
Of course the loss of the GPS signal in this case could be attributed to a broken wire...............
I always draw my route on a map along with the wind and the radio frequencies that I need on route marked in the places I need to talk to people.
I then fly the course using the the map and GPS and radio nav aids as a back up. If the GPS signal fails (the unit is mains powered 196 with battery backup) then I just carry on with "conventional" navigation.
A stopwatch and ruler are out of the arc, I think pilots should learn about GPS as an aid to navigation as part of the basic PPL. I think GPS in combination with a map would save a lot of controllers the headaches caused by airspace busts and lost pilots. GPS is an excellant aid to situational awareness.
Of course the loss of the GPS signal in this case could be attributed to a broken wire...............
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
From: don't know, I'll ask
Bose-x, as indeed it would seem thanks. I tried the unit with an old Garmin 90 aerial and it works again.
As everyone now uses GPS, expect for those who escew the idea of technology, I vote that we have a complete ban on stupid position reports. " G-PS is nine point seven two three miles south of whereever, heading two three six point eight degrees, estimate your overhead in sixteen minutes thirty eight seconds"
As everyone now uses GPS, expect for those who escew the idea of technology, I vote that we have a complete ban on stupid position reports. " G-PS is nine point seven two three miles south of whereever, heading two three six point eight degrees, estimate your overhead in sixteen minutes thirty eight seconds"