GPS Down?
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 2
From: Europe
GPS is actually allowed to be used for IFR en route navigation providing your unit is BRNAV approved.
The main difference between those (panel mounted) units and the hand helds is that they have a RAIM warning which basically alerts you that the signal is not useable for navigation (bit like a flag on the VOR indicators)
HTH
FD
The main difference between those (panel mounted) units and the hand helds is that they have a RAIM warning which basically alerts you that the signal is not useable for navigation (bit like a flag on the VOR indicators)
HTH
FD
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,415
Likes: 90
Fact - GPS is approved as a primary means IFR navigation aid for en-route, terminal and non-precision approach aid all over the world (which actaully extends beyond the continental boundaries of Europe
)
Fact - GPS will never be approved as a primary means VFR navigation aid, but is another useful supplementary aid (as are NDBs,VORs, DMEs etc ....
A hand-held type GPS and an IFR approved receiver are very different animals.
In general, GPS jamming is a bigger problem in Europe than elsewhere due to the overcrowded frequency spectrums - GPS can be affected by harmonics.
The ground navigation aid infrastructure and radar coverage in Europe means that GPS is not as operationally important as in other parts of the blue marble...
)Fact - GPS will never be approved as a primary means VFR navigation aid, but is another useful supplementary aid (as are NDBs,VORs, DMEs etc ....
A hand-held type GPS and an IFR approved receiver are very different animals.
In general, GPS jamming is a bigger problem in Europe than elsewhere due to the overcrowded frequency spectrums - GPS can be affected by harmonics.
The ground navigation aid infrastructure and radar coverage in Europe means that GPS is not as operationally important as in other parts of the blue marble...
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
Barnaby the Bear
Selective availability (degrading of the GPS signal) is only of the order of 200m which is still highly accurate for en-route navigation.
Bose-x
I agree entirely but it will never happen (GPS in the basic PPL). Can't be done, due to backward attitudes, lack of money to equip planes, lack of time in the 45-hour syllabus... It might happen as an add-on module.
Selective availability (degrading of the GPS signal) is only of the order of 200m which is still highly accurate for en-route navigation.
Bose-x
I agree entirely but it will never happen (GPS in the basic PPL). Can't be done, due to backward attitudes, lack of money to equip planes, lack of time in the 45-hour syllabus... It might happen as an add-on module.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
From: South East
Ludwig,
You mention 'Stupid position' reports. But if you are trying to give a FIS or joining instructions, VRP's etc are extremely useful.
I am not against GPS by any means. So long as it doesn't stop pilots flying VFR, from looking out of the window. And that pilots using GPS are fully aware of ATZ's or danger areas marked on maps but not always clearly marked on some models of GPS.
I am sorry if this has deviated from the original thread.
You mention 'Stupid position' reports. But if you are trying to give a FIS or joining instructions, VRP's etc are extremely useful.
I am not against GPS by any means. So long as it doesn't stop pilots flying VFR, from looking out of the window. And that pilots using GPS are fully aware of ATZ's or danger areas marked on maps but not always clearly marked on some models of GPS.
I am sorry if this has deviated from the original thread.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
Barnaby the Bear
Most of us have probably deviated from the original thread
My question is this: is there a LAW which says a PPL must navigate using visual navigation? He can LEGALLY navigate with any method that works. This includes IFR navigation (any or all of GPS, VOR, DME, ADF or radar vectors).
A PPL who competently navigates using IFR may have difficulty spotting some VRPs. I have certainly found that some VRPs are far from obvious even when you know exactly where they are, or there is a similar looking object/feature a mile or two away!
Most of us have probably deviated from the original thread
My question is this: is there a LAW which says a PPL must navigate using visual navigation? He can LEGALLY navigate with any method that works. This includes IFR navigation (any or all of GPS, VOR, DME, ADF or radar vectors).
A PPL who competently navigates using IFR may have difficulty spotting some VRPs. I have certainly found that some VRPs are far from obvious even when you know exactly where they are, or there is a similar looking object/feature a mile or two away!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
From: South East
IO540,
I am just going by my own experience's as an ATCO, and am interested to hear from a pilots point of view.
Its just that on one occassion, a VFR pilot asked by me to report passing a certain VRP,( which keeps them clear of a busy ATZ) had no idea about the VRP and from the response given, had no map to refer to either.
But was on GPS.
This meant alot of R/T for no good reason, on a busy frequency.
That is just one example of quite a few similar occurrences.
Unfortunately I have only limited flying experience, so I don't get to see things from your side of things as much as I would like to.
I am just going by my own experience's as an ATCO, and am interested to hear from a pilots point of view.
Its just that on one occassion, a VFR pilot asked by me to report passing a certain VRP,( which keeps them clear of a busy ATZ) had no idea about the VRP and from the response given, had no map to refer to either.
But was on GPS.
This meant alot of R/T for no good reason, on a busy frequency.
That is just one example of quite a few similar occurrences.
Unfortunately I have only limited flying experience, so I don't get to see things from your side of things as much as I would like to.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
B2B
The man you describe was an idiot if he didn't have a chart with him. Whether the presence of a GPS made him less safe is a matter of debate; I am sure that if you raised it in a CAA Safety Seminar you would get the "right" answer
But VRPs are often hard to spot; that's a fact. Personally, I fly "VFR" whenever there's a nice view to be had out of the window, but I always navigate fully IFR, and it's a lot easier to do that. I also get the impression that ATC much prefer people knowing where they are relative to navaids.
I've had several cases of ATC (RIS) telling me I am breaching some airspace; I knew I was 1-2 miles outside it (GPS, DME, radar fix etc) and a subsequent phone call to the ATCU revealed that they were telling me I was breaching "just in case I was" because "they get a lot of VFR pilots breaching their zone". One such place reportedly had 30 breaches of their Class A CTA the previous day ...
So perhaps VRPs don't always work when it comes to CAS avoidance.
The man you describe was an idiot if he didn't have a chart with him. Whether the presence of a GPS made him less safe is a matter of debate; I am sure that if you raised it in a CAA Safety Seminar you would get the "right" answer
But VRPs are often hard to spot; that's a fact. Personally, I fly "VFR" whenever there's a nice view to be had out of the window, but I always navigate fully IFR, and it's a lot easier to do that. I also get the impression that ATC much prefer people knowing where they are relative to navaids.
I've had several cases of ATC (RIS) telling me I am breaching some airspace; I knew I was 1-2 miles outside it (GPS, DME, radar fix etc) and a subsequent phone call to the ATCU revealed that they were telling me I was breaching "just in case I was" because "they get a lot of VFR pilots breaching their zone". One such place reportedly had 30 breaches of their Class A CTA the previous day ...
So perhaps VRPs don't always work when it comes to CAS avoidance.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
From: South East
I do agree with you. VRP's (when locatable) are an aid to help navigation.
Actually quite good GA Safety Sense Leaflet (25). has just made a timely appearence from the CAA. Worth a read if anybody can get a look.
It answers the original question to the thread, and gives guidance for GPS usage.
Actually quite good GA Safety Sense Leaflet (25). has just made a timely appearence from the CAA. Worth a read if anybody can get a look.
It answers the original question to the thread, and gives guidance for GPS usage.
