Does this aircraft exist?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: London
Does this aircraft exist?
Is there any airplane type which meets these criteria?
4 seat tourer
Single engine
Tricycle gear
135+kts normal cruise speed
600+nm range (plus reserve)
Can lift 4 with light baggage and fuel for 600nm
Aerobatic for basic aeros with pilot and at least 1 pax on board (and limited fuel presumably)
Prefer stick not yoke
Type certificate for CofA (any kind) not permit to fly
Used models with decent avionics available under £60k
Insurable at realistic rate (for aviation insurance anyway)
AF
4 seat tourer
Single engine
Tricycle gear
135+kts normal cruise speed
600+nm range (plus reserve)
Can lift 4 with light baggage and fuel for 600nm
Aerobatic for basic aeros with pilot and at least 1 pax on board (and limited fuel presumably)
Prefer stick not yoke
Type certificate for CofA (any kind) not permit to fly
Used models with decent avionics available under £60k
Insurable at realistic rate (for aviation insurance anyway)
AF
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 329
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From: Home
Doesn't it also need to be STOL and have good soaring performance with the engine off? 
Think the answer to your question is "no", though there does exist an aerobatic version of the Beech Bonanza which meets most of the criteria.
Think the answer to your question is "no", though there does exist an aerobatic version of the Beech Bonanza which meets most of the criteria.
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Europe
Bar the aerobatic requirement the bigger DR400's and the DR500 meet all the criteria.
You then also get good handling and exceptional view from the cockpit.
Pre-loved can be had easily for that sort of money.
FD
You then also get good handling and exceptional view from the cockpit.
Pre-loved can be had easily for that sort of money.
FD
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: S Warwickshire
Barring the tricycle gear (why is this important?), the Boelkow 208 pretty well fits the bill.
Seldom on the market, but at £25-30k leave plenty in the budget for avionics etc.
Oh, and as its wooden, a hangar is a good idea.
Seldom on the market, but at £25-30k leave plenty in the budget for avionics etc.
Oh, and as its wooden, a hangar is a good idea.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 279
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From: Ludlow, England
I think the Yak 18T would be the best bet. The UK-based ones now have full C of A on the Hungarian register with the CAA's blessing. Optional long range tanks can get you to Switzerland. Aerobatic two up. But a yoke instead of a stick.
New turbine powered version is going to be produced as well.
I've had a couple of flights in one. A very impressive beast indeed.
RD
New turbine powered version is going to be produced as well.
I've had a couple of flights in one. A very impressive beast indeed.
RD
Joined: May 2003
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From: Wild Blue Yonder
Aim Far,
I used to instruct on the SIAI MARCHETTI SF 260 while on contract to the Singapore Air Force. From what I remember of it, it would meet most of your requirements. I am not sure of its availability in the UK and I have no idea of its cost. It does have a stick, tricycle undercarriage, is fully aerobatic (although being carburated its negative G time is limited), and cruises at 145kts+ (indicated). If you want to, it can do a loop from the cruise. We used it only as a two seat trainer but I understand that it can take four. Not too sure about the range, but 600+ miles should easily be possible.
Hope this helps.
I used to instruct on the SIAI MARCHETTI SF 260 while on contract to the Singapore Air Force. From what I remember of it, it would meet most of your requirements. I am not sure of its availability in the UK and I have no idea of its cost. It does have a stick, tricycle undercarriage, is fully aerobatic (although being carburated its negative G time is limited), and cruises at 145kts+ (indicated). If you want to, it can do a loop from the cruise. We used it only as a two seat trainer but I understand that it can take four. Not too sure about the range, but 600+ miles should easily be possible.
Hope this helps.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Blighty
The SF260 is way over on the price bracket. It's an airborne Ferrari with the operating costs to match!
Your criteria will be very difficult to fill - I can't think of any aircraft which will do all this. Some will do most, but a lot are way over the 60K mark.
One aircraft which will fill a lot is the Aerospatiale Rallye - now built by PZL (I think) and marketed as the Koliber. If you buy an ST version (ST stood for sports touring) you will get a lot of your criteria except for the 135 knts cruise.
It seats four with ease and in comfort with some baggage, carries a lot of fuel (can't remember the range), has a stick, is aerobatic (and before anyone pooh poohs this - try it. It's a lot better for aeros than a C152 so called Aerobat), nice handling and unbelieveable STOL performance thanks to some massive leading edge flaps. Second hand aircraft aren't expensive.
The down side is that it isn't the best looking aircraft and is prone to corrosion. Check this carefully if buying - they prefer being hangared. It's also a bit of a drag master. There is a 235 hp version - all those extra horses give it even better takeoff and climb perf but don't add a great deal to the cruise.
It was built with a variety of engines ranging from the 0-200 to a PT6 turboprop. There's even a military version which can fire rockets and drop bombs! But don't consider less than 150HP
I don't know much about the Koliber except that it's cheap for a new aircraft. I'm sure it's corrosion proofed as it comes from Poland, don't know about aerobatics.
Your criteria will be very difficult to fill - I can't think of any aircraft which will do all this. Some will do most, but a lot are way over the 60K mark.
One aircraft which will fill a lot is the Aerospatiale Rallye - now built by PZL (I think) and marketed as the Koliber. If you buy an ST version (ST stood for sports touring) you will get a lot of your criteria except for the 135 knts cruise.
It seats four with ease and in comfort with some baggage, carries a lot of fuel (can't remember the range), has a stick, is aerobatic (and before anyone pooh poohs this - try it. It's a lot better for aeros than a C152 so called Aerobat), nice handling and unbelieveable STOL performance thanks to some massive leading edge flaps. Second hand aircraft aren't expensive.
The down side is that it isn't the best looking aircraft and is prone to corrosion. Check this carefully if buying - they prefer being hangared. It's also a bit of a drag master. There is a 235 hp version - all those extra horses give it even better takeoff and climb perf but don't add a great deal to the cruise.
It was built with a variety of engines ranging from the 0-200 to a PT6 turboprop. There's even a military version which can fire rockets and drop bombs! But don't consider less than 150HP
I don't know much about the Koliber except that it's cheap for a new aircraft. I'm sure it's corrosion proofed as it comes from Poland, don't know about aerobatics.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Home
Dan,
Don't quite agree about the Rallye. I regularly fly a 150ST, which I like a lot.
But.... it'll only take 3 people with full tanks (5 hours safe endurance, cruising at 90-95kts), is uncomfortable in the back due to the wing spar taking up all the foot space, has no baggage compartment, is limited to +3.8g and only has lap straps - which rules out aeros.
Don't quite agree about the Rallye. I regularly fly a 150ST, which I like a lot.
But.... it'll only take 3 people with full tanks (5 hours safe endurance, cruising at 90-95kts), is uncomfortable in the back due to the wing spar taking up all the foot space, has no baggage compartment, is limited to +3.8g and only has lap straps - which rules out aeros.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: London
Thanks for the replies folks. I am looking for a nice IFR capable reasonably speedy tourer but have been doing aeros lessons recently too. I think the answer is probably shares in two planes but I just wondered if there was something which satisfied both of those needs.
Tricycle gear because the taildraggers still scare me (though I will get used to them eventually no doubt), CofA so it is IFR capable, aeros with 2 up is fine. I looked at the Fuji but I think it is just a little too slow for touring. Will keep an eye out for the others
AF
PS - Kingy - that might wake up the controllers at Biggin - D**** is type Me108, Bremen to Biggin Hill, inbound for low approach...
Tricycle gear because the taildraggers still scare me (though I will get used to them eventually no doubt), CofA so it is IFR capable, aeros with 2 up is fine. I looked at the Fuji but I think it is just a little too slow for touring. Will keep an eye out for the others
AF
PS - Kingy - that might wake up the controllers at Biggin - D**** is type Me108, Bremen to Biggin Hill, inbound for low approach...
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bournemouth
Tricycle gear because the taildraggers still scare me (though I will get used to them eventually no doubt)
Although I do fly taildraggers reasonably regularly, and they still scare me. The only time I've ever not been scared by a taildragger was when I was hour-building, and flew one nearly every day. The more you fly them, the less scary they are. I would suggest the Bolkow, as recommended by Mark 1.
FFF
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
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From: Blighty
Aero Flyer,
It's a while since I flew a Rallye, I'd forgotten the details of the load capabilities, but I do remeber flying 4 up. Also, I remeber more than 95 knots. Maybe it was a 180.
If you can find one with 4 point harnesses, have a go at aeros - you will be pleasantly surpised. One thing though, the LE slats will pop out just when you don't need them to. We used to tape them shut! Just add 5 knots to all the speeds.
I seem to remeber it could go to 4.4g in the utility category. You need a g meter, but it's only capable of gentle aeros anyway.
A great aircraft all the same - very under rated. You can't appreciate it's performance until you have seen it operate in very tight spaces. I once got towed out of a very small field on an Alpine slope, in a glider by a 235 version. The Rallye was airborne before I was (in a Std Cirrus). Not many tugs could do that.
It's a while since I flew a Rallye, I'd forgotten the details of the load capabilities, but I do remeber flying 4 up. Also, I remeber more than 95 knots. Maybe it was a 180.
If you can find one with 4 point harnesses, have a go at aeros - you will be pleasantly surpised. One thing though, the LE slats will pop out just when you don't need them to. We used to tape them shut! Just add 5 knots to all the speeds.
I seem to remeber it could go to 4.4g in the utility category. You need a g meter, but it's only capable of gentle aeros anyway.
A great aircraft all the same - very under rated. You can't appreciate it's performance until you have seen it operate in very tight spaces. I once got towed out of a very small field on an Alpine slope, in a glider by a 235 version. The Rallye was airborne before I was (in a Std Cirrus). Not many tugs could do that.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Home
A great aircraft all the same - very under rated. You can't appreciate it's performance until you have seen it operate in very tight spaces.
I just wish it went a bit faster. I saw 54kts groundspeed on a windy day last week....
