Why no website for flight plan filing?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why no website for flight plan filing?
Presently one needs to fax them, or use a terminal connected to ATC upstairs. Why is there no website?
I suppose one reason is fear of pranksters entering bogus plans, but one could always have a registration/password system to keep anonymous people out of it.
I suppose one reason is fear of pranksters entering bogus plans, but one could always have a registration/password system to keep anonymous people out of it.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Far East
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps its becuase the ATCO has to open your plan when they see you depart. If you hadn't filed the plan with your ATCO, how would they know you had one at all? Unless you always want to open it on the radio?
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dude~,
I almost never file my flight plans with the ATCO. If I'm departing from a farm strip there isn't one of course, but even when I'm going from a controller-equipped field I normally just fax the plan to Heathrow, often the day before the flight.
They have computers and faxes and clever things like that and propagate the plan to whoever needs to see it. After all, you don't fax your plan to your destination airfield, and yet they magically know about your arrival.
A web-based system would seem like a useful improvement, especially as it could validate a lot of the information as you entered it, thereby avoiding many of the errors which must crop up on a lot of flight plans at the moment.
I almost never file my flight plans with the ATCO. If I'm departing from a farm strip there isn't one of course, but even when I'm going from a controller-equipped field I normally just fax the plan to Heathrow, often the day before the flight.
They have computers and faxes and clever things like that and propagate the plan to whoever needs to see it. After all, you don't fax your plan to your destination airfield, and yet they magically know about your arrival.
A web-based system would seem like a useful improvement, especially as it could validate a lot of the information as you entered it, thereby avoiding many of the errors which must crop up on a lot of flight plans at the moment.
It would be quite easy of-course to make an MS Word or Excel flightplan template (somebody may have one already) and then fax it from your PC. Since they probably receive onto a PC at LHR that would be straightforward enough and effectively eliminate paper from the loop.
Bristol Flying Centre used to operate a commercial online flight plan filing service, I think that they charged a pound, what happened to that?
G
Bristol Flying Centre used to operate a commercial online flight plan filing service, I think that they charged a pound, what happened to that?
G
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is certainly possible to fax e.g. from a laptop with a GSM modem (e.g. a mobile phone with a fax-transmit-capable SIM card, most PAYT SIMs don't support fax) attached to it with a cable, IR or B/tooth.
On e.g. Navbox (www.navbox.nl) you can go click-click-click to generate the route, and then it generates the whole ICAO FP, which you can fax straight out with a PC fax program e.g. Winfax. Very neat.
But one needs to carry a laptop, whose batteries are likely to be flat when you really need it.
One could fax out of a GSM-capable PDA and AFAIK one can run Navbox on a Pocket/PC PDA. That's probably the most portable way of filing flight plans right now.
BUT a website would be great, especially ............ as there could be software behind it which would tell you if you are going to go into CAS, breach danger areas, etc!! Could also check Notams. No, that would be too good so it can't be done
The Bristol thing has gone, I last heard.
On e.g. Navbox (www.navbox.nl) you can go click-click-click to generate the route, and then it generates the whole ICAO FP, which you can fax straight out with a PC fax program e.g. Winfax. Very neat.
But one needs to carry a laptop, whose batteries are likely to be flat when you really need it.
One could fax out of a GSM-capable PDA and AFAIK one can run Navbox on a Pocket/PC PDA. That's probably the most portable way of filing flight plans right now.
BUT a website would be great, especially ............ as there could be software behind it which would tell you if you are going to go into CAS, breach danger areas, etc!! Could also check Notams. No, that would be too good so it can't be done
The Bristol thing has gone, I last heard.
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are pretty backward in Europe when it comes to pre-flight stuff. I subscribe to aeroplanner.com, mainly for when I fly in the USA. For $100 per year I get access to weather / radar / charts / GPS waypoint download / flight planner etc... I can create a route on the Flight Planner, download the GPS waypoints, file the flight plan, and print out a Trip Kit which is a document containing stuff like airfield info, notams, weather, charts, approach plates etc....
I would be happy to pay >100 GBP per year for a complete flight planning service for the UK and Europe which allowed similar stuff to aeroplanner, but taylored to Europe.
EA
I would be happy to pay >100 GBP per year for a complete flight planning service for the UK and Europe which allowed similar stuff to aeroplanner, but taylored to Europe.
EA
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same here!
AvBrief has some of the services that you describe but not all.
They are very receptive to constructive criticism so I will send them an email and ask them to look at this thread.
FD
AvBrief has some of the services that you describe but not all.
They are very receptive to constructive criticism so I will send them an email and ask them to look at this thread.
FD
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Devon
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wearing my AvBrief hat with thanks for the mention from the Dutchman, this is something that we have been dealing with for some time. The issue is regulatory in that NATS's licence does not allow for other service providers. WSI and AirData who do act as service providers to the big boys get round the issue by taking their AFTN feed from the US.
Having said all that we are hopeful that there will be progress although predicting dates is still rather difficult. We would be very keen to provide a virtual AFTN connection for such things as filing flight plans.
Paul.
Having said all that we are hopeful that there will be progress although predicting dates is still rather difficult. We would be very keen to provide a virtual AFTN connection for such things as filing flight plans.
Paul.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Cheshire, England
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CFMU IFPUV
If you want to check that a flight plan is acceptable you can use the CFMU flight plan validator here. This DOES NOT submit the flight plan but does check it for validity against the latest route database.
At least then you know the flight plan isnt going to be rejected because you have chosen some obscure airway that doesn't exist any more!
I agree also that Navbox does it quite nicely...just produce the plan and fax via your PC's fax/modem. Easy!
Fly safe...
Paul
At least then you know the flight plan isnt going to be rejected because you have chosen some obscure airway that doesn't exist any more!
I agree also that Navbox does it quite nicely...just produce the plan and fax via your PC's fax/modem. Easy!
Fly safe...
Paul
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot Paul
I don't think that URL will check a VFR flight plan against anything. I can see it might check an IFR (airways) flight plan against airways, but anything else is going to be a lot more complicated.
I don't think that URL will check a VFR flight plan against anything. I can see it might check an IFR (airways) flight plan against airways, but anything else is going to be a lot more complicated.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540 said
Watch out! The much reviled AIS website uses software known as Aeronautical e-Services (AES) from Thales Information Systems of France. This was specifically designed to allow filing of flight plans, althought the feature has not been implemented in the UK.
This accounts for some of the funnies that users complain about, like the date format and the fact that you can't include an airfield in a route (both of these in accordance with ICAO Flight Plan format).
I suspect that part of the reason it has not been implemented is that FP's are routed differently depending on whether they are VFR or IFR. (Couldn't be anything to do with Eurocontrol wanting to charge Rustle for flying his C310 IFR could it?
- no I thought not
)
Mike
BUT a website would be great, especially ............ as there could be software behind it which would tell you if you are going to go into CAS, breach danger areas, etc!! Could also check Notams. No, that would be too good so it can't be done
This accounts for some of the funnies that users complain about, like the date format and the fact that you can't include an airfield in a route (both of these in accordance with ICAO Flight Plan format).
I suspect that part of the reason it has not been implemented is that FP's are routed differently depending on whether they are VFR or IFR. (Couldn't be anything to do with Eurocontrol wanting to charge Rustle for flying his C310 IFR could it?
- no I thought not )Mike
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Cheshire, England
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540 is right - I have should have said the CFMU validator is only really of use for checking an IFR airways flight plan, although to be fair I think it would also check for dodgy syntax regardless of whether the plan is VFR or IFR (try entering some incorrect field values and see what happens...). VFR route checking is always likely to remain the job of the pilot or operator submitting the plan...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike Cross
This accounts for some of the funnies that users complain about, like the date format and the fact that you can't include an airfield in a route (both of these in accordance with ICAO Flight Plan format).
I don't know the full ins and outs of flight plan syntax but isn't there a way to specify a waypoint as coordinates? If so, then entering an airfield name (e.g. EGHI) as a waypoint could be automatically translated into the appropriate format.
Same goes for date specification - it is easy enough to have a pulldown calendar, etc.
This accounts for some of the funnies that users complain about, like the date format and the fact that you can't include an airfield in a route (both of these in accordance with ICAO Flight Plan format).
I don't know the full ins and outs of flight plan syntax but isn't there a way to specify a waypoint as coordinates? If so, then entering an airfield name (e.g. EGHI) as a waypoint could be automatically translated into the appropriate format.
Same goes for date specification - it is easy enough to have a pulldown calendar, etc.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah would it not be lovely if you could have a service which allows you do tell them where you want to go on what day and time and all the necessary would be sorted:
Weather, Customs, SB, FPL, Notams, PPR, Transport and Hotel at the other end.
Or any combination of the above.
Would have my vote, and money.
FD
Weather, Customs, SB, FPL, Notams, PPR, Transport and Hotel at the other end.
Or any combination of the above.
Would have my vote, and money.
FD
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540
You're quite right, you can specify co-ordinates or bearing and distance from a navaid but not an aerodrome indicator. In a lot of cases there is a way round it, SAM would do for EGHI and COM for EGHA for instance because they are located on the fields.
FD
How about the NavBox interface?
It can already do:-
A map of your route
Weight and Balance
Flight Plan
Calculate fuel burn
Calculate wind and produce your PLOG
Upload the route to your GPS
and produce a list of en-route frequencies along your track.
Wouldn't it be nice if it also looked up the NOTAM along your track?
NOTAM - Notices to Airmen.
Except that we don't get NOTAM
Oh no, we who have trained, been examined and licensed are clearly far too irresponsible to be given NOTAM. Instead we get a Pre-Flight Information Bulletin (PIB) that is not in any ICAO defined format and lacks the coding required to enable a software program to reliably select those NOTAM which might affect our intended flight.
If you are a commercial briefing service, an airline, and ATC unit or anyone else with an AFTN feed you get NOTAM.
But not if you are a pilot!
Mike
You're quite right, you can specify co-ordinates or bearing and distance from a navaid but not an aerodrome indicator. In a lot of cases there is a way round it, SAM would do for EGHI and COM for EGHA for instance because they are located on the fields.
FD
How about the NavBox interface?
It can already do:-
A map of your route
Weight and Balance
Flight Plan
Calculate fuel burn
Calculate wind and produce your PLOG
Upload the route to your GPS
and produce a list of en-route frequencies along your track.
Wouldn't it be nice if it also looked up the NOTAM along your track?
NOTAM - Notices to Airmen.
Except that we don't get NOTAM
Oh no, we who have trained, been examined and licensed are clearly far too irresponsible to be given NOTAM. Instead we get a Pre-Flight Information Bulletin (PIB) that is not in any ICAO defined format and lacks the coding required to enable a software program to reliably select those NOTAM which might affect our intended flight.
If you are a commercial briefing service, an airline, and ATC unit or anyone else with an AFTN feed you get NOTAM.
But not if you are a pilot!
Mike
Aha, look what I just found...
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/CA48.htm
Leading to
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/image/CA48.pdf
Not quite perfect, but you can edit your flightplan on screen with this then just fax direct from the PC. Better than nothing!
G
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/CA48.htm
Leading to
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/image/CA48.pdf
Not quite perfect, but you can edit your flightplan on screen with this then just fax direct from the PC. Better than nothing!
G
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is needed is a [only moderately] imaginative person running a commercial flight briefing outfit (Avbrief?) who already has your credit card details (to pay for the fax transmission) and who could do the same thing.
Getting onto a website in an internet cafe is a lot easier than sitting in a hotel in the middle of nowhere trying to fax a FP to Heathrow out of one's laptop with Winfax via a GSM phone..... especially as one needs to go to the said cafe to get onto Avbrief to get the weather, and onto the AIS site to get the Notams.
The other day I was explaining this system to an intelligent but non-flying woman; her first comment was "why isn't there a website where you could enter your route, it checks it for danger areas, restricted areas, stuff like that, then it files the flight plan for you?" Oh well.
Getting onto a website in an internet cafe is a lot easier than sitting in a hotel in the middle of nowhere trying to fax a FP to Heathrow out of one's laptop with Winfax via a GSM phone..... especially as one needs to go to the said cafe to get onto Avbrief to get the weather, and onto the AIS site to get the Notams.
The other day I was explaining this system to an intelligent but non-flying woman; her first comment was "why isn't there a website where you could enter your route, it checks it for danger areas, restricted areas, stuff like that, then it files the flight plan for you?" Oh well.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A sort of 0800 WXBRIEF
I'd pay 100-150 GBP per year for unlimited use with a freephone number (so you can call from a call box), but what really puts me off are one off 20 quid charges per call. It'd be nice if you could talk to a pre-flight briefer who could remind you of Notams, weather etc., and then go ahead and file your flight plan for you.
EA
I'd pay 100-150 GBP per year for unlimited use with a freephone number (so you can call from a call box), but what really puts me off are one off 20 quid charges per call. It'd be nice if you could talk to a pre-flight briefer who could remind you of Notams, weather etc., and then go ahead and file your flight plan for you.
EA