night flying
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,092
Likes: 10
From: uk
Going back to where to land at night in a emergency going for the big black area may be a lake or a mountain.
Some years ago i spent many a happy hour or ten flying all night out of HG (WBAnot) around the Uk to clock up some night hours for the ATPL.
In England there was about six airfields to land at after about 9pm so most of my x/c was routed close to these airfields. This gave me alot of time to study the ground.
I often felt you could do no worse in the event of engine failure to turn into wind (usually non at the surface at night) set up low RofD and dodge whatever the landing light picked out at the last moment. Alternatively aim for the car headlights in the hope that alongside will be a field.
Even the countryside at 2am in the morning is criss crossed with car headlights or farm building lights.
I always enjoyed this time of year when night training started.
When everyone else is getting depressed of the thoughts of long winter nights, as pilots we can look forward to some of the most rewarding flying experiences.
Some years ago i spent many a happy hour or ten flying all night out of HG (WBAnot) around the Uk to clock up some night hours for the ATPL.
In England there was about six airfields to land at after about 9pm so most of my x/c was routed close to these airfields. This gave me alot of time to study the ground.
I often felt you could do no worse in the event of engine failure to turn into wind (usually non at the surface at night) set up low RofD and dodge whatever the landing light picked out at the last moment. Alternatively aim for the car headlights in the hope that alongside will be a field.
Even the countryside at 2am in the morning is criss crossed with car headlights or farm building lights.
I always enjoyed this time of year when night training started.
When everyone else is getting depressed of the thoughts of long winter nights, as pilots we can look forward to some of the most rewarding flying experiences.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 960
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From: Somewhere In The South China Sea
is it not sensible to obtain an IMC before doing the night rating? or is it a requirement? I know my flying club wont let me do a night rating without an IMC but obviously that could be just their 'requirement', do you need so many hours as PIC before doing the night rating as with the IMC?
happy flying
Dean
happy flying
Dean
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 743
Likes: 1
From: Kilmacolm
Hi Dean,
It isn't necessary to obtain an IMC before a Night Qualification, I had a Night Rating (as it was called) before obtaining an IMC rating.
However back in the good old days you required to have a certain amount of instrument time - 5 hours if I remember correctly. Quite sensible as you're flying without a horizon at night where you could end up in clouds that you can't see as easily as in the day time.
Also if youi're flying out of a Class D airport at night without an IMC rating you will need to take a Special VFR clearance out which a PPL/Night will legally need 10 kilometres visibility. With an IMC rating you could take it down to 3Km or if you have a suitably equipped plane fly an IAP with 1800 metre vis.
At night, as the atmosphere cools down, the chances of the visibility reducing to under 10km is quite possible. So what would happen for a PPL/Night flying around the local area finds that the visibility has reduced to below the 10km requirement for the Special VFR? Hmmm... not many airports outside controlled airspace are open at night.
So I would most definately say it is very wise and sensible to obtain an IMC rating before a Night Qualification.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
It isn't necessary to obtain an IMC before a Night Qualification, I had a Night Rating (as it was called) before obtaining an IMC rating.
However back in the good old days you required to have a certain amount of instrument time - 5 hours if I remember correctly. Quite sensible as you're flying without a horizon at night where you could end up in clouds that you can't see as easily as in the day time.
Also if youi're flying out of a Class D airport at night without an IMC rating you will need to take a Special VFR clearance out which a PPL/Night will legally need 10 kilometres visibility. With an IMC rating you could take it down to 3Km or if you have a suitably equipped plane fly an IAP with 1800 metre vis.
At night, as the atmosphere cools down, the chances of the visibility reducing to under 10km is quite possible. So what would happen for a PPL/Night flying around the local area finds that the visibility has reduced to below the 10km requirement for the Special VFR? Hmmm... not many airports outside controlled airspace are open at night.
So I would most definately say it is very wise and sensible to obtain an IMC rating before a Night Qualification.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
Suave yet Shallow
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
From: half way between the gutter and the stars.
It was a good question about the 3 clicks on the mic to operate the lights.
Does anyone know why this isn't used more often in the UK? It would be damned handy for anyone that can fly at night as the no. if airfields available rapidly dissappears at sunset.
Does anyone know why this isn't used more often in the UK? It would be damned handy for anyone that can fly at night as the no. if airfields available rapidly dissappears at sunset.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
From: Home
Does anyone know why this isn't used more often in the UK? It would be damned handy for anyone that can fly at night as the no. if airfields available rapidly dissappears at sunset.
Unfortunately I'm not qualified to use it at night....
Which brings me to a question. Can I be taught night flying by a French JAA instructor, given that I have a UK CAA PPL - but live in France? I don't want the hassle of converting my CAA licence, and can't spare the time to come back to the UK to train there.
Thanks, AF.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
There are a number of pilot operated lighting strips in the UK, Spanhoe is one that comes straight to mind. they are mostly on the small strips and are unsurprisingly popular on farm strips.
I have used them a number of times, 7 clicks on the POL frequency and the lights come on for 30 minutes.
It is a shame some of the bigger airfields don't have them. But I guess if there is no one there to operate the lights then there is no one there to collect the landing fee!!!
I agree that an IMC is a benefit for XC flying at night but for local flight just experiancing the sheer fun of being airborne at night the basic 5 hour hourse is enough When I did my rating orginally I did the night first and enjoyed many hours of cruising around the local area. Having flown a good number of landaway cross countries I have encountered cloud on many occassions in which case being able to instrument fly proves invaluable.
I have used them a number of times, 7 clicks on the POL frequency and the lights come on for 30 minutes.
It is a shame some of the bigger airfields don't have them. But I guess if there is no one there to operate the lights then there is no one there to collect the landing fee!!!
I agree that an IMC is a benefit for XC flying at night but for local flight just experiancing the sheer fun of being airborne at night the basic 5 hour hourse is enough When I did my rating orginally I did the night first and enjoyed many hours of cruising around the local area. Having flown a good number of landaway cross countries I have encountered cloud on many occassions in which case being able to instrument fly proves invaluable.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 960
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From: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Hi CZ
Thanks for the reply mate, do you need a certain number of hrs before commencing the night rating as with the 70 hrs needed PIC to start the IMC? I have a PPL and have 60 hrs TT but whilst I am still consolidating everything I have learnt in my training I would like to move onto other things when I feel the time is right.
I havent got a copy of LAZORS to hand so I thought someone would know this without looking it up
Thanks
Dean.
Thanks for the reply mate, do you need a certain number of hrs before commencing the night rating as with the 70 hrs needed PIC to start the IMC? I have a PPL and have 60 hrs TT but whilst I am still consolidating everything I have learnt in my training I would like to move onto other things when I feel the time is right.
I havent got a copy of LAZORS to hand so I thought someone would know this without looking it up
Thanks
Dean.
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
From: London
Deano777,
Good news - LASORS Section E is online!
No - you can do the night qualification as part of your initial 45 hours training.
You don't need 70 hours PIC to start the IMC training! All you need is 25 hours after licence issue, which can include the 15 hours (or however long it takes you) for the IMC course itself. This is also in Section E.
Good news - LASORS Section E is online!
do you need a certain number of hrs before commencing the night rating
as with the 70 hrs needed PIC to start the IMC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
From: UK
Nope, there are no minimum hours now
Its all here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_E.pdf
Where did you get the 70 hours PIC from before starting the IMC.
On application you just need 25 hours post PPL to include 10 hours PIC. The balance can be the IMC training course itself. Its all in the above link.
Its all here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_E.pdf
Where did you get the 70 hours PIC from before starting the IMC.
On application you just need 25 hours post PPL to include 10 hours PIC. The balance can be the IMC training course itself. Its all in the above link.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 960
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From: Somewhere In The South China Sea
my CFI told me, when I passed my skills test I asked him my next steps (which I knew, I just wanted some good advice) he said to hr build in the states, I said what about my IMC and he replied you need 70 hrs PIC, I questioned him as to whether this meant 70 hrs TT and he said no it must be PIC, I was a tad disappointed to hear this but I am now so very glad you cleared that up for me 
, I have bought all my IMC books in preperation so it looks like full steam ahead
Cheers guys
Dean
, I have bought all my IMC books in preperation so it looks like full steam ahead Cheers guys
Dean
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
From: London
Some CFIs do say the strangest things! 
Perhaps he just meant that it would be a good idea to build up some general flying and handling experience before starting the IMC. That's not bad advice at all, but there is no legal requirement to wait until any particular number of hours.
Perhaps he just meant that it would be a good idea to build up some general flying and handling experience before starting the IMC. That's not bad advice at all, but there is no legal requirement to wait until any particular number of hours.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,102
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From: E Anglia
I did the IMC very soon after acquiring my PPL and frankly, although I did it in the UK many years ago in a concentrated course over 9 days I found it quite taxing.
I would agree that a sound flying ability is essential before attempting the IMC: my problem was altitude keeping, while bouncing aroung in genuine IMC in a particularyl !!!!!ty March many years ago.
However I was pretty old when I took up flying so perhaps you youngsters wouldn't have such trouble!
Bose-x.
You've got me thinking about lights at strips: Do you or any ppruners have a contact number for Spanhoe or indeed any outfit in UK which has (recently) installed Pilot operated lights?
TIA
Safe flying
Cusco.
I would agree that a sound flying ability is essential before attempting the IMC: my problem was altitude keeping, while bouncing aroung in genuine IMC in a particularyl !!!!!ty March many years ago.
However I was pretty old when I took up flying so perhaps you youngsters wouldn't have such trouble!
Bose-x.
You've got me thinking about lights at strips: Do you or any ppruners have a contact number for Spanhoe or indeed any outfit in UK which has (recently) installed Pilot operated lights?
TIA
Safe flying
Cusco.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 743
Likes: 1
From: Kilmacolm
Hi Dean,
As Fly Stimulator says you can obtain Night Qualification at the same time as your JAA PPL so yes you can obtain it before your IMC Rating.
Incidentially we're lucky we've got the option to do the Night Qualification at the same time as the JAA PPL or not. The Americans, unless they live in Alaska (FAR 61.110), have to do the night flight training before they can even take their PPL Checkride.
Anyway we're talking about the JAA system here.
As for the 70 Hours PIC before the IMC, that isn't the case. You require 10 Hours PIC which has been gained since the date of application for your PPL. However this 10 Hour PIC can be gained before, after or during IMC training. You will not however be able to have the IMC Rating issued by the CAA until you have the 10 Hours PIC.
The 70 Hours PIC requirement is for the Multi Engine Rating. If you were to go for a Multi Engine Rating, it maybe a good idea to do some flying in a complex single during those 70 Hours PIC. It'll make life a little easier when it comes to the Multi Engine flight training course.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
As Fly Stimulator says you can obtain Night Qualification at the same time as your JAA PPL so yes you can obtain it before your IMC Rating.
Incidentially we're lucky we've got the option to do the Night Qualification at the same time as the JAA PPL or not. The Americans, unless they live in Alaska (FAR 61.110), have to do the night flight training before they can even take their PPL Checkride.
Anyway we're talking about the JAA system here.
As for the 70 Hours PIC before the IMC, that isn't the case. You require 10 Hours PIC which has been gained since the date of application for your PPL. However this 10 Hour PIC can be gained before, after or during IMC training. You will not however be able to have the IMC Rating issued by the CAA until you have the 10 Hours PIC.
The 70 Hours PIC requirement is for the Multi Engine Rating. If you were to go for a Multi Engine Rating, it maybe a good idea to do some flying in a complex single during those 70 Hours PIC. It'll make life a little easier when it comes to the Multi Engine flight training course.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Hi CZ
In some ways I wish the CAA adopted the JAA system which makes it madatory to do the night training before issue of the PPL, the CFI did say it would be better to do the IMC on a more complex single to make conversion easier as you stated, they have just bought an Arrow III Turbo so this maybe an option, he said it would be more stable than the Warriors currently used which would be good, I am dying to do the night rating, but if only my FTO would let me do it before issue of the IMC
Anyway thanks a million for the advice etc
Dean
In some ways I wish the CAA adopted the JAA system which makes it madatory to do the night training before issue of the PPL, the CFI did say it would be better to do the IMC on a more complex single to make conversion easier as you stated, they have just bought an Arrow III Turbo so this maybe an option, he said it would be more stable than the Warriors currently used which would be good, I am dying to do the night rating, but if only my FTO would let me do it before issue of the IMC
Anyway thanks a million for the advice etc
Dean
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,914
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
Night flying is great fun. Radio is usually a lot quieter and generally it's much smoother.
A couple of things to remember/consider. Take a bit more time out to look at the forecast and Metars. Note if the temperatures quoted are the same or close together. This means that there is a very good chance of the vis falling. Note when the tempo's are for and add a decent buffer to them. The vis can be hampered at dawn/dusk when there's just enough light to see but it can mask the runway lights if it's a bit misty/foggy. (That has happened to me).
Make sure you do carry enough fuel to go to an alternate as well. (I know legally you have to but keep an eye on it as that field may go "under" regarding the wx too).
If you have a spare moment when you are flying, listen out on the atis's and volmets to keep yourself in the picture as to how the wx is going.
Carry a spare torch and make sure it's working too.
Enjoy.
A couple of things to remember/consider. Take a bit more time out to look at the forecast and Metars. Note if the temperatures quoted are the same or close together. This means that there is a very good chance of the vis falling. Note when the tempo's are for and add a decent buffer to them. The vis can be hampered at dawn/dusk when there's just enough light to see but it can mask the runway lights if it's a bit misty/foggy. (That has happened to me).
Make sure you do carry enough fuel to go to an alternate as well. (I know legally you have to but keep an eye on it as that field may go "under" regarding the wx too).
If you have a spare moment when you are flying, listen out on the atis's and volmets to keep yourself in the picture as to how the wx is going.
Carry a spare torch and make sure it's working too.
Enjoy.
