The Quality of your Instruction…
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The Quality of your Instruction…
I am getting on with my PPL training (I have two Instructors at the club btw), but I have had several things happen which have made me wonder whether I am receiving the best tuition I could get. I thought I would share a couple of these with you folks to see whether this sits well with your own experiences.
1. My first solo was one circuit. My second solo a few days later was about 10 circuits. Then, I was sent out by Instructor #2 on a 50 mile solo navigation in what I now think was highly questionable weather. As I flew towards the first point, the weather closed in behind me and I could no longer see the airport. Ahead was appalling cloud and rain. So I aborted, couldn’t turn back and so headed towards the only clear bit of sky I could see, which was North of the area of the second navigation point. I had little idea of exactly where I was. I was getting quite a buffeting throughout too. I circled for about 15 minutes, hoping the weather would clear. It shifted slightly and I could then see the second town, and headed towards it. As I flew over it and then south, the weather became bad again, with rain, very low cloud, lightning flashes just above me and heavy thunder - in fact I had the distinct feeling the lightning was being aimed directly at me. As I got away from it I could just see where the airfield should be, headed towards it and landed. I was a little shaken inside.
2. I was recently sent on my XCQ. It was a very clear day, although with a strong cross-wind at my home runway which also meant a heavy cross-wind at the two away runways. I landed at the first airfield after making a silly mistake and turning onto base too soon (but then I was by then on a very extended downwind - traffic was heavy; also I am not sure they knew I was a Student Pilot (although they had been telephoned), not that that should necessarily have mattered of course). So I got ‘Satisfactory’ for airmanship; ‘Good’ for the landing. On my second leg, I got a little lost en route, but got back on track again; and by this time the runway in use at the second airfield had changed to the opposite direction as the wind had shifted. But I couldn’t find the airfield and flew past it. It would have helped if I had been taught how to use the ADF and the VOR/DME. But I had no knowledge of any navigation equipment at all. I was given a QDM by the ATC but at that time I had no idea what it meant. In the end, the ATC ended up saying things like ‘fly a heading of 3 o’clock’ and so eventually I got there and landed. I was given ‘Satisfactory’ for airmanship and ‘Good’ for the landing. So I passed; but hardly at the standard I would have liked. When I got back, the Instructor #2 who had sent me on the XCQ was very surprised to learn that I had never been on a fly-away before and so had never done a solo landing at another airfield. A week or so later, #1 was talking to me and was saying about how I must push on for the XCQ, and so was pretty surprised (and pleased, it’s true) to learn that I had done it already and got it.
I had not been told I should be getting the written exams under my belt during the flying training, and in fact was not directed to do any at all. I think this is a mistake; at least I would have known about some navigation equipment. I have, now, recently done two written exams, HPL and Air Law, and got 100% for both. I am not stupid, and actually can fly pretty satisfactorily I guess as students go; but I sort of approached this business of learning with the attitude of ‘they are the tutors, I am the student, I am totally under their wing/s, I trust them, they know what they are doing and I will follow and do what they guide me to do’. Well, with hindsight, I am not convinced this was smart. I don’t think I should ever have been sent up on that first short solo nav flight in those weather conditions; and I certainly think I shouldn’t have been sent on my solo XCQ - as a navigation flight - without a) having landed on my own at at least one other airfield, and b) without having been trained in the use of the navigation equipment on board.
There are a few other things as well which I won’t go into. But I wonder whether all this amounts to a high standard of tuition? Certainly #1 likes things done in a different way to #2. It seems to me that a bit of co-ordination between them as well might help.
Do you folks feel this is normal tuition and these things happen all the time? And, of course I would be very interested to hear of any of your own experiences about your tuition.
The Phoenix
1. My first solo was one circuit. My second solo a few days later was about 10 circuits. Then, I was sent out by Instructor #2 on a 50 mile solo navigation in what I now think was highly questionable weather. As I flew towards the first point, the weather closed in behind me and I could no longer see the airport. Ahead was appalling cloud and rain. So I aborted, couldn’t turn back and so headed towards the only clear bit of sky I could see, which was North of the area of the second navigation point. I had little idea of exactly where I was. I was getting quite a buffeting throughout too. I circled for about 15 minutes, hoping the weather would clear. It shifted slightly and I could then see the second town, and headed towards it. As I flew over it and then south, the weather became bad again, with rain, very low cloud, lightning flashes just above me and heavy thunder - in fact I had the distinct feeling the lightning was being aimed directly at me. As I got away from it I could just see where the airfield should be, headed towards it and landed. I was a little shaken inside.
2. I was recently sent on my XCQ. It was a very clear day, although with a strong cross-wind at my home runway which also meant a heavy cross-wind at the two away runways. I landed at the first airfield after making a silly mistake and turning onto base too soon (but then I was by then on a very extended downwind - traffic was heavy; also I am not sure they knew I was a Student Pilot (although they had been telephoned), not that that should necessarily have mattered of course). So I got ‘Satisfactory’ for airmanship; ‘Good’ for the landing. On my second leg, I got a little lost en route, but got back on track again; and by this time the runway in use at the second airfield had changed to the opposite direction as the wind had shifted. But I couldn’t find the airfield and flew past it. It would have helped if I had been taught how to use the ADF and the VOR/DME. But I had no knowledge of any navigation equipment at all. I was given a QDM by the ATC but at that time I had no idea what it meant. In the end, the ATC ended up saying things like ‘fly a heading of 3 o’clock’ and so eventually I got there and landed. I was given ‘Satisfactory’ for airmanship and ‘Good’ for the landing. So I passed; but hardly at the standard I would have liked. When I got back, the Instructor #2 who had sent me on the XCQ was very surprised to learn that I had never been on a fly-away before and so had never done a solo landing at another airfield. A week or so later, #1 was talking to me and was saying about how I must push on for the XCQ, and so was pretty surprised (and pleased, it’s true) to learn that I had done it already and got it.
I had not been told I should be getting the written exams under my belt during the flying training, and in fact was not directed to do any at all. I think this is a mistake; at least I would have known about some navigation equipment. I have, now, recently done two written exams, HPL and Air Law, and got 100% for both. I am not stupid, and actually can fly pretty satisfactorily I guess as students go; but I sort of approached this business of learning with the attitude of ‘they are the tutors, I am the student, I am totally under their wing/s, I trust them, they know what they are doing and I will follow and do what they guide me to do’. Well, with hindsight, I am not convinced this was smart. I don’t think I should ever have been sent up on that first short solo nav flight in those weather conditions; and I certainly think I shouldn’t have been sent on my solo XCQ - as a navigation flight - without a) having landed on my own at at least one other airfield, and b) without having been trained in the use of the navigation equipment on board.
There are a few other things as well which I won’t go into. But I wonder whether all this amounts to a high standard of tuition? Certainly #1 likes things done in a different way to #2. It seems to me that a bit of co-ordination between them as well might help.
Do you folks feel this is normal tuition and these things happen all the time? And, of course I would be very interested to hear of any of your own experiences about your tuition.
The Phoenix
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sounds to me like a couple of things have gone wrong here.
1/. A severe lack of quality, basic, instruction.
2/. No student notes kept for the instructors to refer to.
3/. Hour building instructors who just don't give a s**t maybe?
4/. Poor management by the CFI
Change schools and get what you're paying for! Don't accept second rate instruction.
Having read through this post twice now I get the feeling it's a wind-up but in reality, this kind of thing does go on. For people learning to fly, the instructor has to remember what he /she was like when first learning to fly. The instructor was right, whatever he said. At least that's what we all thought because we didn't know any different.
Get the exams done sooner rather than later.
Ask questions. Ask any other students. Do your homework or one day, the lightning might be real and the outcome not so pleasant.
1/. A severe lack of quality, basic, instruction.
2/. No student notes kept for the instructors to refer to.
3/. Hour building instructors who just don't give a s**t maybe?
4/. Poor management by the CFI
Change schools and get what you're paying for! Don't accept second rate instruction.
Having read through this post twice now I get the feeling it's a wind-up but in reality, this kind of thing does go on. For people learning to fly, the instructor has to remember what he /she was like when first learning to fly. The instructor was right, whatever he said. At least that's what we all thought because we didn't know any different.
Get the exams done sooner rather than later.
Ask questions. Ask any other students. Do your homework or one day, the lightning might be real and the outcome not so pleasant.
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Hi kissmysquirrel:
A wind-up? You mean you think this is a joke??!
No. It really isn't. And the lightning and thunder were very real.
I think that's the point, when you say "we didn't know any different". One doesn't, and it is all a bit mind boggling when you start to learn. So you trust your instructor/s. Your points 1, 3 and 4 would seem to be pretty much on the mark, I would think. There are notes, I have seen the cabinet, but one wonders whether they are ever consulted. As for changing schools, that would mean changing airports and so that would be more distance...
Thanks for your reply. I conclude you would describe this as 'second rate instruction' as you say. That's what I was thinking; but I had no terms of reference.
TP
PS: Looking at my own posting again I can see how you might have thought it was a joke. The Sourcerer's Apprentice rather springs to mind...
PPS: Looks like everyone else thinks this is a wind-up too...
A wind-up? You mean you think this is a joke??!
No. It really isn't. And the lightning and thunder were very real.
I think that's the point, when you say "we didn't know any different". One doesn't, and it is all a bit mind boggling when you start to learn. So you trust your instructor/s. Your points 1, 3 and 4 would seem to be pretty much on the mark, I would think. There are notes, I have seen the cabinet, but one wonders whether they are ever consulted. As for changing schools, that would mean changing airports and so that would be more distance...
Thanks for your reply. I conclude you would describe this as 'second rate instruction' as you say. That's what I was thinking; but I had no terms of reference.
TP
PS: Looking at my own posting again I can see how you might have thought it was a joke. The Sourcerer's Apprentice rather springs to mind...
PPS: Looks like everyone else thinks this is a wind-up too...
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The Phoenix Rises
What you describe is pretty normal and I've experienced much worse myself. The standard of instruction is even more variable than the standard of the aircraft.
It is also true that PPL-level navigation (reading ground features) is not actually much good for real getting about the UK. VOR/DME is necessary, and in practice most people use that with a GPS as primary nav.
But then you've got to remember that the school's interest is in getting money off you. The longer it takes you the better (I am not suggesting that instructors are deliberately stretching your hours to make more money although I have known a very obvious case of this with an instructor and some very gullible students, which half my airfield was aware of too) and once you get your PPL they really have no interest in you whatever, except possibly to take more money for a night or IMCR.
Unfortunately, the PPL training world is geared up for the great majority of people - who drop out of flying very quickly after they get their PPL.
Get your PPL, get your IMCR, get your own plane, perhaps later get an FAA PPL/IR and put the plane on the N register, and don't look back (I guarantee you won't)
What you describe is pretty normal and I've experienced much worse myself. The standard of instruction is even more variable than the standard of the aircraft.
It is also true that PPL-level navigation (reading ground features) is not actually much good for real getting about the UK. VOR/DME is necessary, and in practice most people use that with a GPS as primary nav.
But then you've got to remember that the school's interest is in getting money off you. The longer it takes you the better (I am not suggesting that instructors are deliberately stretching your hours to make more money although I have known a very obvious case of this with an instructor and some very gullible students, which half my airfield was aware of too) and once you get your PPL they really have no interest in you whatever, except possibly to take more money for a night or IMCR.
Unfortunately, the PPL training world is geared up for the great majority of people - who drop out of flying very quickly after they get their PPL.
Get your PPL, get your IMCR, get your own plane, perhaps later get an FAA PPL/IR and put the plane on the N register, and don't look back (I guarantee you won't)
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Switching between two instructors on a regular basis sounds like a bad idea to me. Continuity is key and you have obviously suffered from a lack of it. Flying with different instructors from time to time is generally a very good thing, because you will learn that there are different ways of doing things and you can pick the one that works best for you. You will have plenty of opportunity for this post-PPL (check rides etc).
It sounds like you flew solo before passing your Air Law exam. I think that is illegal (?).
I think you should either pick one of your instructors to complete the course or switch schools, if that is a viable option. You can search pprune for several debates about switching schools.
Atleast you survived your difficult flights and I am sure they were a useful learning experience.
TallGuy
It sounds like you flew solo before passing your Air Law exam. I think that is illegal (?).
I think you should either pick one of your instructors to complete the course or switch schools, if that is a viable option. You can search pprune for several debates about switching schools.
Atleast you survived your difficult flights and I am sure they were a useful learning experience.
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I'm amazed that you were allowed out of circuit without having passed Air Law, Nav and Met, let alone being sent on a cross country.
But... when you rang, you were given the destination weather (you did ask, right?). You then discussed the trip with your instructor and he checked your flight plan. If it was legal and your instructor thought you were up to it, it was your decision to go. However, ask yourself what you would have done if the weather had deteriorated further!!
Students on QXC should identify themselves as such to ATC when approaching their destination field. It lets ATC watch your approach and landing, it also means they can give you a slightly bigger hole in the circuit traffic, should you need it.
But... when you rang, you were given the destination weather (you did ask, right?). You then discussed the trip with your instructor and he checked your flight plan. If it was legal and your instructor thought you were up to it, it was your decision to go. However, ask yourself what you would have done if the weather had deteriorated further!!
Students on QXC should identify themselves as such to ATC when approaching their destination field. It lets ATC watch your approach and landing, it also means they can give you a slightly bigger hole in the circuit traffic, should you need it.
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Hi IO540:
Nice to hear from you!
Don't get me started on the aircraft they put me in...!
I appreciate the comments, and I do wonder about the money element... Remember my other thread about buying a plane, and the £3.5k finder's/checking fee?
I completely agree with your last para - here's to it!
TP
Nice to hear from you!
Don't get me started on the aircraft they put me in...!
I appreciate the comments, and I do wonder about the money element... Remember my other thread about buying a plane, and the £3.5k finder's/checking fee?
I completely agree with your last para - here's to it!
TP
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Sorry for thinking it was a wind-up but when you read about a solo student going off and flying in thunder/lightning etc you wonder if someone is just making stuff up to illicit a certain response. You were lucky. Next time, get the CFI to check the MET with you before any flight as the two instructors(hopefully one wasn't the CFI) you have flown with, obviously don't have any concerns for your safety.
You could always bring the old chestnut of "Duty of Care" up with them one day. Ask them if they are well insured for the day a students family sues them after a fatal accident.
I've probably opened a whole pot of eels here.
Fly safe and get the most from your training.
You could always bring the old chestnut of "Duty of Care" up with them one day. Ask them if they are well insured for the day a students family sues them after a fatal accident.
I've probably opened a whole pot of eels here.
Fly safe and get the most from your training.
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TPR,
I was saddened to read your post. I thought that kind of thing only happened to me during my so-called 'training'. I expect if you search the grimy bowels of PPRuNe you'll find several posts from me in a similar vein...
In the end I had to change school - and I can't tell you how big the difference was, and how quickly I was retrained and passed.
It continues to amaze me that the CAA don't chase up this kind of thing - it would do more to raise standards than any of their 'safety initiatives'.
You know, I've been through several Piper and Cessna POH's, and I still can't find the little box where we deposit our common-sense when we get the plane with an instructor
Take a step back - and sort it out. Remember, it's supposed to be fun and rewarding
Good Luck.
I was saddened to read your post. I thought that kind of thing only happened to me during my so-called 'training'. I expect if you search the grimy bowels of PPRuNe you'll find several posts from me in a similar vein...
In the end I had to change school - and I can't tell you how big the difference was, and how quickly I was retrained and passed.
It continues to amaze me that the CAA don't chase up this kind of thing - it would do more to raise standards than any of their 'safety initiatives'.
You know, I've been through several Piper and Cessna POH's, and I still can't find the little box where we deposit our common-sense when we get the plane with an instructor
Take a step back - and sort it out. Remember, it's supposed to be fun and rewarding
Good Luck.
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Hi Tall Guy:
Yes, I think that’s good advice, and I think I should do that. I certainly went solo before the Air Law, and also for my solo nav (#1 in my opening posting above). I did have Air Law and HPL by the time of the QXC. As I say, certainly not the Nav - I hadn't even read the book.
As for the learning experience - well, the up side is that I think I learned far more from the experiences I actually had than I would from all going very smoothly. It just didn’t feel so good at the time!
TP
Hi bar shaker:
For the short nav (#1 above) no phone calls were made. There were no landings and the Instructor did not suggest or make any calls. The best advice I got over if the weather deteriorated was “turn round and come back”. Well, of course when I turned behind, the weather had closed over the airfield, as I wrote.
On your last para, that’s a pretty sore point with me. I specifically asked my Instructor before I left for the flight should I not identify myself on R/T to the ATC as a Student Pilot on QXC, and I was told no, that they would know this from the prior tel call. It would appear that what happened, of course, was that the airfield was so busy just at the time I arrived that the ATC missed that I was an SP. He was tearing someone off a strip as I reached the VRP for not reading instructions back, and then later for 2 people (a/c) talking at the same time; I was asked how I would like to join, meaning I did not have to join overhead (which I had firmly planted in my mind as how I would do this) and I guess this threw me just a little too! But then, after my return, the Instructor said it was clear from the details of my flight that the ATC didn’t realise I was an SP and that - from now on - they would instruct all subsequent SPs on QXC to identify themselves on R/T as such to ATC. Great for others following. Pretty poor show for me, I think.
TP
Yes, I think that’s good advice, and I think I should do that. I certainly went solo before the Air Law, and also for my solo nav (#1 in my opening posting above). I did have Air Law and HPL by the time of the QXC. As I say, certainly not the Nav - I hadn't even read the book.
As for the learning experience - well, the up side is that I think I learned far more from the experiences I actually had than I would from all going very smoothly. It just didn’t feel so good at the time!
TP
Hi bar shaker:
For the short nav (#1 above) no phone calls were made. There were no landings and the Instructor did not suggest or make any calls. The best advice I got over if the weather deteriorated was “turn round and come back”. Well, of course when I turned behind, the weather had closed over the airfield, as I wrote.
On your last para, that’s a pretty sore point with me. I specifically asked my Instructor before I left for the flight should I not identify myself on R/T to the ATC as a Student Pilot on QXC, and I was told no, that they would know this from the prior tel call. It would appear that what happened, of course, was that the airfield was so busy just at the time I arrived that the ATC missed that I was an SP. He was tearing someone off a strip as I reached the VRP for not reading instructions back, and then later for 2 people (a/c) talking at the same time; I was asked how I would like to join, meaning I did not have to join overhead (which I had firmly planted in my mind as how I would do this) and I guess this threw me just a little too! But then, after my return, the Instructor said it was clear from the details of my flight that the ATC didn’t realise I was an SP and that - from now on - they would instruct all subsequent SPs on QXC to identify themselves on R/T as such to ATC. Great for others following. Pretty poor show for me, I think.
TP
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There is another side to this coin. I have been closely involved with a student learning over the last year, and he has been totally cossetted, told that he cannot fly when the cloud base is less than 3000' (despite the 2500' TMA round these parts) or when the wind is more than about 12kts.
The trouble is that he has now qualified, and can legally scud run through controlled airspace, having never done either in his training. He has a PPL, yet I have to take him in hand and teach him how to fly.
I do sympathise with the Phoenix (though he does have the advantage over the rest of us that if he does crash and burn he will rise again from the ashes
) that to be sent out as a very inexperienced tyro into CBs and TSs is criminal, but at least he now knows that adverse weather is survivable if you keep your cool (as he seems to have done admirably) and he will probably end up a more competent and safer pilot than one who has been wrapped in cotton wool for training and then suddenly kicked out of the nest.
W
The trouble is that he has now qualified, and can legally scud run through controlled airspace, having never done either in his training. He has a PPL, yet I have to take him in hand and teach him how to fly.
I do sympathise with the Phoenix (though he does have the advantage over the rest of us that if he does crash and burn he will rise again from the ashes
) that to be sent out as a very inexperienced tyro into CBs and TSs is criminal, but at least he now knows that adverse weather is survivable if you keep your cool (as he seems to have done admirably) and he will probably end up a more competent and safer pilot than one who has been wrapped in cotton wool for training and then suddenly kicked out of the nest.W
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You have my sympathies, I would suggest you change school, but as you seem to be quite near the end of your training, this may not be feasible.
When are schhols going to get a bit more businesslike and develope some customer care ! We all pay a lot to fly and I think we deserve a lot better service from FTO's.
On the other hand, I know some 'hours' building instructors who are a joy to fly with and their instruction is excellent and some schools re very good, so I don't want to be accused of tarring them all with same brush !
When are schhols going to get a bit more businesslike and develope some customer care ! We all pay a lot to fly and I think we deserve a lot better service from FTO's.
On the other hand, I know some 'hours' building instructors who are a joy to fly with and their instruction is excellent and some schools re very good, so I don't want to be accused of tarring them all with same brush !
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What appears to me the worst aspect of this is the apparent complete lack of communication between the two instructors, or incomplete student records, so that neither knew what you had or hadn't done. Even if the records are incomplete, it doesn't take a moment to ASK you if you've done the exams, how much solo flying you've done, etc. It sounds like total incompetence on that kind of level. Unfortunately it's not unusual. The PPL course tends to be a DIY course to a certain extent for many of us, and it shouldn't be!!! I'd suggest changing schools, but you sound as though you're so near finishing anyway that it's not worth it. So do some research yourself, find out what you don't know, and make sure you learn it. You sound like you're doing fine IN SPITE of poor instruction.
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Hi again kissmysquirrel:
No probs! I’m glad it seemed a pretty laughable experience, although as I’ve already said it wasn’t so at the time.
It was the #2 that sent me on these trips, not the CFI (my #1), but as I understand it is is his responsibility to oversee the other instructors, and the ultimate fault lies there. I think they don’t display enough concern for safety. I might take it up with them next time. On the other hand, who likes to make waves…
Hi Altissimus:
Gee, sorry you had similar experiences, and I will search and see what I can find in the archives. I don’t think I can change schools now, but sticking with one instructor seems the next best idea. Doesn’t the CAA have any monitoring of schools? They must do, surely…?
I bet the 2 PA28s that I fly at the school probably did each have a box… but that the bottoms have rotted away and fallen out with age, and all notes lost to the elements…(!)
Hi WCollins:
Excellent!! However, The Phoenix has just risen from the ashes (after the big D!) and so I have another 600 years or so to go before I get to do that again…!
Yes, your point about being cosseted is well made and well taken. And like I have said somewhere, I am sure the upside is that I have learned more this way…
TP
No probs! I’m glad it seemed a pretty laughable experience, although as I’ve already said it wasn’t so at the time.
It was the #2 that sent me on these trips, not the CFI (my #1), but as I understand it is is his responsibility to oversee the other instructors, and the ultimate fault lies there. I think they don’t display enough concern for safety. I might take it up with them next time. On the other hand, who likes to make waves…
Hi Altissimus:
Gee, sorry you had similar experiences, and I will search and see what I can find in the archives. I don’t think I can change schools now, but sticking with one instructor seems the next best idea. Doesn’t the CAA have any monitoring of schools? They must do, surely…?
I bet the 2 PA28s that I fly at the school probably did each have a box… but that the bottoms have rotted away and fallen out with age, and all notes lost to the elements…(!)
Hi WCollins:
Excellent!! However, The Phoenix has just risen from the ashes (after the big D!) and so I have another 600 years or so to go before I get to do that again…!
Yes, your point about being cosseted is well made and well taken. And like I have said somewhere, I am sure the upside is that I have learned more this way…
TP
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the Instructor #2 who had sent me on the XCQ was very surprised to learn that I had never been on a fly-away before and so had never done a solo landing at another airfield
For most people their first solo land-away is at the second airfield on the QXC. I'm sure the QXC is deliberately setup this way. It is a test to ensure that you can find the airfield without having an instructor on board. The fact you flew past the airfield is a proof that the test is a valid one! (BTW: I got lost coming back from my second airfield on my QXC - only the excellent visibility allowed me to locate myself again!). So don't get too hung up on the fact that you had not landed at a strange airfield on your own before the QCX; very few people do.
It does appear you have been subject to some very lack instructing. As well as the lack of communication between instructors already commented on by other, it is a significant failure that you have not been trained to use the Radio Navigation Equipment in the aircraft, and not to have been give guidance on how to obtain (and use) a QDM, prior to your QXC.
It is difficult for any school to standardise the approach taken by any two instructors, as teaching styles are bound to vary. But the school should be making an attempt at standardisation - it doesn't sound like your school is. This has to be a bad thing for student progress.
As Whirley says, it sounds like you are doing fine inspite of this school.
At least you will know what to say is someone asks you if you can recommend a flying school...
Last edited by tacpot; 7th Oct 2003 at 00:47.
I also thought this was a windup 
Can't remember all the points, but I've just passed my PPL, and I had 7 different instructors. The school asked me about this, and I said it wasn't a problem, because each had their own way of teaching things, and pointed things out that others didn't etc. This approach does not however suit everybody, infact, I'm probably in the minority, but I was given the choice of *trying* to get the same instructor (or two) for the duration or not caring. I did prefer some to others; and one (due to a later ground based incident) that I no longer wish to fly with.
I had to fly four hours worth of solo circuits before they let me move onto anything else.
I had two navigation trips with two different instructors before they let me out of the circuit on my own. I also had to show (in the air) that I could work the ADF and VOR before they cut me loose.
Any sign of dodgy weather put a stop to all solo proceedings, and one had to, again demonstrate, that you had the knowledge of weather and airfields before doing QXC.
As somebody else mentioned, you also had to pass some of the written exams, and know who to talk to en-route.
Golden rule was, if your not sure, get on the radio and talk to somebody !!!!
Just reading the first post..... I really can't believe that.
Can't remember all the points, but I've just passed my PPL, and I had 7 different instructors. The school asked me about this, and I said it wasn't a problem, because each had their own way of teaching things, and pointed things out that others didn't etc. This approach does not however suit everybody, infact, I'm probably in the minority, but I was given the choice of *trying* to get the same instructor (or two) for the duration or not caring. I did prefer some to others; and one (due to a later ground based incident) that I no longer wish to fly with.
I had to fly four hours worth of solo circuits before they let me move onto anything else.
I had two navigation trips with two different instructors before they let me out of the circuit on my own. I also had to show (in the air) that I could work the ADF and VOR before they cut me loose.
Any sign of dodgy weather put a stop to all solo proceedings, and one had to, again demonstrate, that you had the knowledge of weather and airfields before doing QXC.
As somebody else mentioned, you also had to pass some of the written exams, and know who to talk to en-route.
Golden rule was, if your not sure, get on the radio and talk to somebody !!!!
Just reading the first post..... I really can't believe that.
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I've just read the orginal Phoenix post and my jaw is still resting on the desk!
Personally I believe this school should be reported to the CAA. It is their responsibility AND they have a Duty of Care to safeguard, nurture and develop the student - not expose them to undue and unnecessary risk. Make no mistake - this could well of ended in !tragedy. I'm sure that Phoenix could think of one or two other students who if given the same circumstances might not of survived.
I like MikeeB had a good basis on which to venture forth on a QXC. Whilst the onus is on basic nav skills my training included getting QDM's if ever they were required and the use of a VOR.
Its to your credit in example 1 that you spotted some clear weather and circled (good reason to have your safety margin in your fuel calcs!).
Whilst a Put I to was told to go on a solo XC one day by a young newish instructor (covering for my usual Instructor), I looked around the sky line and thought ' I dont like the look of those big black clouds'. I questioned the wisdom of setting off in such conditions to be told that 'you can't always fly in sunny conditions you know'. I said 'b*gg*r off - its my neck on the line here, you'll be sat in the office with a cup of tea'. He indicatted that I was a Put and really couldn't understand weather yet, stommped off with a 'its up to you what you do then'. I stayed earth bound. Minutes later an instuctor friend of mine landed, how was it I asked? TERRIBLE he replies, that large cloud just fell on him, it was full of ice and hail, - so pleased to be on the ground etc etc. 15 minutes later heavy hail was falling on the airfield. I pointed this out to the eager new flying Instructor in no uncertain manner, reported him to the CFI and refused to be instucted by him ever again. (He was read the riot act by the CFI as the school were proud of there safty record and moved on some 4 weeks later after making a 1st lesson prospective student ill with tight turning).
After I passed my PPL I was doing a check out on a new type, all was going well. The instructor left me after a few ccts with the requirement being 'do 4 solo ccts, watch the weather but currently the wind will keep that big rain cloud away'. I did 1 cct quiet happly, however whilst starting down wind for number 2 I noted that the ATC gave note of a rapiddly changing wind direction and speed. It was now 90 degs to the runway 17kts - the limit of the aircraft!! Although I hadn't reached the full extent of the downwind leg I was already in rain with the vis dropping. Sod this I thought, told ATC I was executing an imediate base leg and why. The vis just dropped away, the ATC put the Rwy lights on as by now the rain was hammering down. By the time I could see the runway I was to high, I thought about going for it but the consequences of shooting off the end were to great. However I could see some light blue of to the NW - sanctury! Told ATC I was overshooting and would head for the NW. As I cleared the runway ATC gave me an option of doing a 180 turn to land on the opposite end. Looked back, the rain had just reached the opposite threshold. This I felt was on, executed a wing over 180 straight on to finals and landed. Half way down the runway I met the rain but who cared! I was on the ground. The ATC gave me a 'Well done and excellent landing' on the RT. My Instuctor came out to meet me, I can still visualise, in bright yellow waterproofs. I'm sure he was more relived than me, he appoligised several times for putting me in that postion. I pointed out that I was a PPL now and that the wind had changed dramatically in less than 2 minutes - but it was nice that he cared.
One final point, it appears to me that the QXC only matters on the circuit and landing. Whilst I was learning one student argued with a Manchester ATC as to her location within the low level route, she was just about to go blundering thru Liverpools Zone, although she was reported to the school, because she apparently met the critera of finding the required airfields and landing ok - she passed!
Gosh, just realised how I've rambled on - Sorry - just reminiscing on the early days
Personally I believe this school should be reported to the CAA. It is their responsibility AND they have a Duty of Care to safeguard, nurture and develop the student - not expose them to undue and unnecessary risk. Make no mistake - this could well of ended in !tragedy. I'm sure that Phoenix could think of one or two other students who if given the same circumstances might not of survived.
I like MikeeB had a good basis on which to venture forth on a QXC. Whilst the onus is on basic nav skills my training included getting QDM's if ever they were required and the use of a VOR.
Its to your credit in example 1 that you spotted some clear weather and circled (good reason to have your safety margin in your fuel calcs!).
Whilst a Put I to was told to go on a solo XC one day by a young newish instructor (covering for my usual Instructor), I looked around the sky line and thought ' I dont like the look of those big black clouds'. I questioned the wisdom of setting off in such conditions to be told that 'you can't always fly in sunny conditions you know'. I said 'b*gg*r off - its my neck on the line here, you'll be sat in the office with a cup of tea'. He indicatted that I was a Put and really couldn't understand weather yet, stommped off with a 'its up to you what you do then'. I stayed earth bound. Minutes later an instuctor friend of mine landed, how was it I asked? TERRIBLE he replies, that large cloud just fell on him, it was full of ice and hail, - so pleased to be on the ground etc etc. 15 minutes later heavy hail was falling on the airfield. I pointed this out to the eager new flying Instructor in no uncertain manner, reported him to the CFI and refused to be instucted by him ever again. (He was read the riot act by the CFI as the school were proud of there safty record and moved on some 4 weeks later after making a 1st lesson prospective student ill with tight turning).
After I passed my PPL I was doing a check out on a new type, all was going well. The instructor left me after a few ccts with the requirement being 'do 4 solo ccts, watch the weather but currently the wind will keep that big rain cloud away'. I did 1 cct quiet happly, however whilst starting down wind for number 2 I noted that the ATC gave note of a rapiddly changing wind direction and speed. It was now 90 degs to the runway 17kts - the limit of the aircraft!! Although I hadn't reached the full extent of the downwind leg I was already in rain with the vis dropping. Sod this I thought, told ATC I was executing an imediate base leg and why. The vis just dropped away, the ATC put the Rwy lights on as by now the rain was hammering down. By the time I could see the runway I was to high, I thought about going for it but the consequences of shooting off the end were to great. However I could see some light blue of to the NW - sanctury! Told ATC I was overshooting and would head for the NW. As I cleared the runway ATC gave me an option of doing a 180 turn to land on the opposite end. Looked back, the rain had just reached the opposite threshold. This I felt was on, executed a wing over 180 straight on to finals and landed. Half way down the runway I met the rain but who cared! I was on the ground. The ATC gave me a 'Well done and excellent landing' on the RT. My Instuctor came out to meet me, I can still visualise, in bright yellow waterproofs. I'm sure he was more relived than me, he appoligised several times for putting me in that postion. I pointed out that I was a PPL now and that the wind had changed dramatically in less than 2 minutes - but it was nice that he cared.
One final point, it appears to me that the QXC only matters on the circuit and landing. Whilst I was learning one student argued with a Manchester ATC as to her location within the low level route, she was just about to go blundering thru Liverpools Zone, although she was reported to the school, because she apparently met the critera of finding the required airfields and landing ok - she passed!
Gosh, just realised how I've rambled on - Sorry - just reminiscing on the early days
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I am amazed your instructor let you go up with "that big rain cloud" nearby - those are often thunderstorms and he ought to have known that one can get big wind changes near to those.
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Whilst the instructors were clearly remiss, did you not think to querstion any of this? Being sent off on a navex without having learnt anything about navigation? The forecast and visible poor weather?