IMC question
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IMC question
Non pilot question here, be gentle!
I am a bit confused by the privaliges of the PPL, Night, IMC and IR ratings.
A PPL allows you to fly VFR and IFR (but not in IMC) in all airspace apart from A, as long as you are in constant sight with the ground? What happens with a night rating then??? I take it with a PPL you can't fly above cloud?
With an IMC rating this allows you to fly IMC in all airspace apart from A? Can you fly above cloud with an IMC?
What specific privaliges does an IR give you?
Thanks for any help.
I am a bit confused by the privaliges of the PPL, Night, IMC and IR ratings.
A PPL allows you to fly VFR and IFR (but not in IMC) in all airspace apart from A, as long as you are in constant sight with the ground? What happens with a night rating then??? I take it with a PPL you can't fly above cloud?
With an IMC rating this allows you to fly IMC in all airspace apart from A? Can you fly above cloud with an IMC?
What specific privaliges does an IR give you?
Thanks for any help.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Yep, that's pretty much it.
All of this is specific to the UK, but to clarify a bit, in the UK:
- A PPL will let you fly almost anywhere at all, but only in VMC, and in sight of the surface, and only during the day (we'll leave the definition of "day" for another thread!)
You can fly in Class A, but only Special VFR. And Special VFR only exists in a Control Zone. There are two Class A control zones in the UK where this is useful, London and the Channel Islands. Any other Class A, you won't be able to fly in with a vanilla PPL.
- A Night Qualification extends these priveleges to the night time. Note that there is no such thing as VFR at night in the UK, all flights must be IFR. But if you just have a vanilla PPL/Night then you are still restricted to VMC, even though IFR.
- An IMC rating lets you fly in Class D airspace and below in IMC, or out of sight of the surface (i.e. above the clouds). It is only valid in the UK. Since Class C isn't used in the UK, and class B is only used for the upper airspace, for all practical purposes you are correct in saying that it is valid in all airspace except class A, but that's not how it's actually defined. (And I suppose, theoretically, you might one day fly something which is capable of reaching Class B, in which case there is a practical difference.)
In addition to this, IMC holders have recommended minima for instrument approaches which are much higher than those for an IR. Although these limits are just recommendations, I don't think you'll find any non-IR holders who will ever go below these limits.
- An IR lets you fly in IMC in all airspace. It is recognised internationally. The recommended limits on approaches are also removed, so you can fly the approach to the limits of that particular approach.
That's a brief summary, lots of details missing, but should be enough for most practical purposes. Hope it helps.
FFF
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All of this is specific to the UK, but to clarify a bit, in the UK:
- A PPL will let you fly almost anywhere at all, but only in VMC, and in sight of the surface, and only during the day (we'll leave the definition of "day" for another thread!)
You can fly in Class A, but only Special VFR. And Special VFR only exists in a Control Zone. There are two Class A control zones in the UK where this is useful, London and the Channel Islands. Any other Class A, you won't be able to fly in with a vanilla PPL.
- A Night Qualification extends these priveleges to the night time. Note that there is no such thing as VFR at night in the UK, all flights must be IFR. But if you just have a vanilla PPL/Night then you are still restricted to VMC, even though IFR.
- An IMC rating lets you fly in Class D airspace and below in IMC, or out of sight of the surface (i.e. above the clouds). It is only valid in the UK. Since Class C isn't used in the UK, and class B is only used for the upper airspace, for all practical purposes you are correct in saying that it is valid in all airspace except class A, but that's not how it's actually defined. (And I suppose, theoretically, you might one day fly something which is capable of reaching Class B, in which case there is a practical difference.)
In addition to this, IMC holders have recommended minima for instrument approaches which are much higher than those for an IR. Although these limits are just recommendations, I don't think you'll find any non-IR holders who will ever go below these limits.
- An IR lets you fly in IMC in all airspace. It is recognised internationally. The recommended limits on approaches are also removed, so you can fly the approach to the limits of that particular approach.
That's a brief summary, lots of details missing, but should be enough for most practical purposes. Hope it helps.
FFF
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FFF,
you're always a source of interesting and worthwhile information and very helpful to people who ask questions on this forum - but please stop using the word vanilla.
(Unless of course somebody starts a thread about soft-scoop Cornish ice cream).
you're always a source of interesting and worthwhile information and very helpful to people who ask questions on this forum - but please stop using the word vanilla.
(Unless of course somebody starts a thread about soft-scoop Cornish ice cream).
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That may be a bit of confusion caused by the fact that holders of the old Night Rating "may be exempt from 3 hours of the flying instruction" according to LASORS. I believe that this is because the Night Rating included instrument training which is not part of today's Night Qualification syllabus.
So, it is a potential concession, rather than a pre-requisite, but not even that for Night Qualification holders.
So, it is a potential concession, rather than a pre-requisite, but not even that for Night Qualification holders.
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A different IMC question...
On a slightly different topic does anyone know what minimum level of equipment is needed in an aircraft do an IMC?
I believe there's no need for a Public C of A to do this rating in your own aircraft?
I believe there's no need for a Public C of A to do this rating in your own aircraft?
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I believe that there is no restriction on what you can train in (although, for example, if you trained in a permit aeroplane you would have to remain in VMC at all times) - however, there is a minimum equipment list required for the test itself (it's in Standards Document 25, notes for the IMC skills test, in LASORS).
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Strafer, I agree that I'm always a source of information, although I'm not so sure that it's necessarilly interesting or worthwhile! 
However, point taken about the use of the word "vanilla" - I think it comes from having been working in banking for far too long. From now on, a PPL with no other ratings will be known as "strawberry". And, especially for shortstripper, we'll call it "rum & raisin" once you add ratings to it. Everyone happy now?
FFF
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However, point taken about the use of the word "vanilla" - I think it comes from having been working in banking for far too long. From now on, a PPL with no other ratings will be known as "strawberry". And, especially for shortstripper, we'll call it "rum & raisin" once you add ratings to it. Everyone happy now?
FFF
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FFF quote: << . . . However, point taken about the use of the word "vanilla" - I think it comes from having been working in banking for far too long.>>
What is the connection between banking and vanilla? Just curious.
And yes, your comments are always interesting and worthwhile. (grovel, grovel )
What is the connection between banking and vanilla? Just curious.
And yes, your comments are always interesting and worthwhile. (grovel, grovel
)
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Scottish PPL
There are regulations relating to the aircraft used for training: it has to be on a Public Transport C of A, or you have to be the sole owner if it's on a Private Cat.
It's different again, I understand, for NPPL and microlights but I don't know the rules for those.
For IMC training, it has to have at least a basic IFR fit - see LASORS for details.
I've always been in groups with "airways equipped" aircraft, and wouldn't seriously consider IFR flight with anything less (although the 75 MHz marker receiver doesn't get a lot of use in this country these days).
There are regulations relating to the aircraft used for training: it has to be on a Public Transport C of A, or you have to be the sole owner if it's on a Private Cat.
It's different again, I understand, for NPPL and microlights but I don't know the rules for those.
For IMC training, it has to have at least a basic IFR fit - see LASORS for details.
I've always been in groups with "airways equipped" aircraft, and wouldn't seriously consider IFR flight with anything less (although the 75 MHz marker receiver doesn't get a lot of use in this country these days).
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On a slightly different topic does anyone know what minimum level of equipment is needed in an aircraft do an IMC?
To use the privileges of the rating you need an ILS to do an instrument approach(fairly obviously); if you are in controlled airspace you must have all the above, and they must be FM immune. This means that outside of class D you can fly IFR and do instrument approaches using non FM immune kit. To fly IFR outside controlled airspace you do not need ADF/DME etc but it would be sensible to have it. You must carry Turn and Slip, AI. DI, VSI, Altimeter and a clock with second hand.
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Pianorak - thanks!
The banking connection is to do with the complexity of a trade. A "vanilla" trade is a very basic trade where a client might buy some options. The client will phone the trader, and the trader will read the price off a computer screen. As opposed to an "exotic" trade where they might do a deal involving options in a number of different stocks with some complex interaction between them. For this type of deal, the complexities need to be analyzed and a price calculated based on how much risk is involved. At least I think that's how it works - to an IT person like me it just means I have more numbers to look after for an exotic trade than I do for a vanilla one!
I used to hate the word "vanilla" when I first came across it. Now I find myself using it without even thinking about it.
FFF
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The banking connection is to do with the complexity of a trade. A "vanilla" trade is a very basic trade where a client might buy some options. The client will phone the trader, and the trader will read the price off a computer screen. As opposed to an "exotic" trade where they might do a deal involving options in a number of different stocks with some complex interaction between them. For this type of deal, the complexities need to be analyzed and a price calculated based on how much risk is involved. At least I think that's how it works - to an IT person like me it just means I have more numbers to look after for an exotic trade than I do for a vanilla one!
I used to hate the word "vanilla" when I first came across it. Now I find myself using it without even thinking about it.
FFF
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Justiciar
Well, not if it's an NDB, VOR, VDF, SRA, PAR or (do they really exist?) MLS approach, obviously...
Tim
To use the privileges of the rating you need an ILS to do an instrument approach(fairly obviously)
Tim
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Justiciar - to get an IMC you have to demonstrate two approaches, one of which must use a pilot-interpreted aid (i.e you cannot do both a SRA and PAR approach). You don't have to do an ILS approach to get an IMC. The minimum radio-nav fit is in effect one VOR or ADF.
Last edited by Evo; 3rd Oct 2003 at 22:08.