Aircraft "unsure of position" over the Channel
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Aircraft "unsure of position" over the Channel
I'm currently listening to Manston Radar (126.35) on my scanner at home in Sandwich... there's an aircraft (callsign Golf Romeo Victor - I don't know the full reg) being brought back from the Calais area by the controller. Sounds like everything's under control, the pilot can currently see the Kent coast, apparently...
I thought I'd post this info - hopefully it might be useful to someone!
cbl.
I thought I'd post this info - hopefully it might be useful to someone!
cbl.
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Agreed, M.Mouse, I certainly didn't mean to imply any criticism.
Happy to report G-RV is now under his own navigation below cloud from Folkestone back to Biggin.
cbl.
Happy to report G-RV is now under his own navigation below cloud from Folkestone back to Biggin.
cbl.
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Without wishing to start up a debate this is the whole reason I believe all aircraft should carry some kind of GPS for back-up navigation. Those who haven't used them will never realise their usefulness.
The poor chap in G---RV would never had needed to make the call had he been able to switch on a GPS and get an "instant fix".
This is even more the case when flying over water (even a small stretch) on a day when visual references are few and far between due to haze etc. If a VOR/ADF is not available then surely you need SOMETHING to tell you your exact position?
We all know the wind/weather can vary a lot in that neck of the woods especially on the longer 60 mile water stretches. With the winds up as they were yesterday he probably got blown east of track and couldn't see what he was expecting to see. It could happen to anyone and that is why I invested in Mr Garmin's lifesaver!!
The poor chap in G---RV would never had needed to make the call had he been able to switch on a GPS and get an "instant fix".
This is even more the case when flying over water (even a small stretch) on a day when visual references are few and far between due to haze etc. If a VOR/ADF is not available then surely you need SOMETHING to tell you your exact position?
We all know the wind/weather can vary a lot in that neck of the woods especially on the longer 60 mile water stretches. With the winds up as they were yesterday he probably got blown east of track and couldn't see what he was expecting to see. It could happen to anyone and that is why I invested in Mr Garmin's lifesaver!!
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Monocock,
You may not have wanted the debate but.....lost in the channel?
Could the pilot not decide whether he wanted UK or France? Ok from Calais with a westerly you might miss the south coast but north for a while then left should bring you to England.
Are there not sufficient VOR's and NDB's in the south east UK or northern France?
OK, you mention the haze over the water. Do GPS's have artificial horizons now?
Sounds more like getting drawn into a situation you can't handle because you know where you are.
And you reckon all aircraft should carry a GPS?
Get real, please!
You may not have wanted the debate but.....lost in the channel?
Could the pilot not decide whether he wanted UK or France? Ok from Calais with a westerly you might miss the south coast but north for a while then left should bring you to England.
Are there not sufficient VOR's and NDB's in the south east UK or northern France?
OK, you mention the haze over the water. Do GPS's have artificial horizons now?
Sounds more like getting drawn into a situation you can't handle because you know where you are.
And you reckon all aircraft should carry a GPS?
Get real, please!
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Sorry Miserlou, I didn't realise that some clever people never find themelves temporarily unsure of position.
I was merely making a point that a GPS would have probably helped the pilot(s) achieve a quick position fix. You'd be surprised at how many people don't know how to use a VOR/ADF and I was only trying to be helpful with my suggestion.
As you correctly pointed out, maybe I should get real and start accepting that nobody ever gets lost up there.
I was merely making a point that a GPS would have probably helped the pilot(s) achieve a quick position fix. You'd be surprised at how many people don't know how to use a VOR/ADF and I was only trying to be helpful with my suggestion.
As you correctly pointed out, maybe I should get real and start accepting that nobody ever gets lost up there.
Mess Your Passage
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You really need to HUNT around to find out where you are and if you do find yourself in this position you should use all means at your disposal to find your position
Tip.
Lie........ Make it a training fix
Who would know?
Tip.
Lie........ Make it a training fix
Who would know?
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There may be some clever people out there who never get temporarily unsure of their position, Mono, but I don't think I know any.
From my soap box, I am trying to get across a message of basic common navigational sense. Plan A and plan B.
An example, Having worked out a lovely plan from Belgium to Denmark with all the VOR's I wanted and all the frequencies I could find I then made plan B. East for 10 minutes, north until I get to the blue bit and turn right. Plan B worked so well I didn't bother with plan A. This was a two and a half hour flight during which I tried a variety of techniques including using a map and calculating ground speed from abeam VOR's.
But the aircraft had a panel mounted GPS.........which was u/s because the rain had seeped in and shorted the antenna.
To be brutally frank, if some-one can't work an ADF they will have no hope of working a GPS.
When all has turned squirly for you there will always be one instrument which, at the selection of three numbers, will point you an arrow straight to a position on the ground.
I have tried a variety of ADF's and GPS's. All the ADF's worked exactly the same way but I can't always get the GPS's to tell me what I want to know.
Rant Over.
It woiuld be interesting to know where the pilot in the above case started from. I'm just assuming that he knew where he was before he got lost. So if you start where you knew where you were and then work out which direction you went and for approximately how long, then you're not quite as lost as you were when you found you were lost. And if you know which way you need to go to get to where you want to be you'll have it cracked.
From my soap box, I am trying to get across a message of basic common navigational sense. Plan A and plan B.
An example, Having worked out a lovely plan from Belgium to Denmark with all the VOR's I wanted and all the frequencies I could find I then made plan B. East for 10 minutes, north until I get to the blue bit and turn right. Plan B worked so well I didn't bother with plan A. This was a two and a half hour flight during which I tried a variety of techniques including using a map and calculating ground speed from abeam VOR's.
But the aircraft had a panel mounted GPS.........which was u/s because the rain had seeped in and shorted the antenna.
To be brutally frank, if some-one can't work an ADF they will have no hope of working a GPS.
When all has turned squirly for you there will always be one instrument which, at the selection of three numbers, will point you an arrow straight to a position on the ground.
I have tried a variety of ADF's and GPS's. All the ADF's worked exactly the same way but I can't always get the GPS's to tell me what I want to know.
Rant Over.
It woiuld be interesting to know where the pilot in the above case started from. I'm just assuming that he knew where he was before he got lost. So if you start where you knew where you were and then work out which direction you went and for approximately how long, then you're not quite as lost as you were when you found you were lost. And if you know which way you need to go to get to where you want to be you'll have it cracked.
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Gotta say I agree with Miserlou. GPS is like a PC, it'll do all sorts of wonderful things, but it needs a certain...dedication...to figuring out first how to use it. It took me a while to get to grips with my Garmin 295. I still have only the vaguest of ideas how to use my brother's 430.
Here's a story I got from Alexander Kent's biography. One of his squadrons (hurricanes) was being reviewed and the officer asked how they would find their way home if they were lost. The answer he got was "We put our squadron number on the compass and fly in that direction."
The officer was understandably confused, but figured it out when he realised that it was a Free Check unit, so communications were not easy, plus all of Kent's units were numbered between 330 and 360...The point being that if you were lost, heading North (or South) is probably enough to get you out of trouble. East and West would be bad. Might not get you to the correct airport, but it'll get you away from the water.
Just to even out my response...Do GPS units now have a horizon? Though I have yet to get one in my hot little hands, I think the 196 does.
Here's a story I got from Alexander Kent's biography. One of his squadrons (hurricanes) was being reviewed and the officer asked how they would find their way home if they were lost. The answer he got was "We put our squadron number on the compass and fly in that direction."
The officer was understandably confused, but figured it out when he realised that it was a Free Check unit, so communications were not easy, plus all of Kent's units were numbered between 330 and 360...The point being that if you were lost, heading North (or South) is probably enough to get you out of trouble. East and West would be bad. Might not get you to the correct airport, but it'll get you away from the water.
Just to even out my response...Do GPS units now have a horizon? Though I have yet to get one in my hot little hands, I think the 196 does.
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Flash 0710....
.......and hope we don't respond with "too busy to do trg fixes!"
There is nothing wrong with admitting you are lost - better do that than run out of fuel or stray into controlled airspace. As far as I am aware we don't charge for helping!!!
On a serious note, Thames and SVFR no longer have direction finding equipment now we are at the ATC Centre. As haven't Gatwick/Stansted/Luton etc.
121.5 is always the best bet.
Lie........ Make it a training fix
There is nothing wrong with admitting you are lost - better do that than run out of fuel or stray into controlled airspace. As far as I am aware we don't charge for helping!!!
On a serious note, Thames and SVFR no longer have direction finding equipment now we are at the ATC Centre. As haven't Gatwick/Stansted/Luton etc.
121.5 is always the best bet.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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All aircraft should have a GPS? The amount of debate on this one thread suggests GPS is not for everyone - and that's before you trawl through the archives to find all the other threads where we've discussed it! If you want GPS, that's fine, but please don't try to force it onto everyone else whether they want it or not.
Seems that the pilot in question handled the situation fine from what I've read. Must be pretty scary if the wind isn't as forecast and the land doesn't appear where you expect it to. I like the sound of Miserlou's Plan B. I suspect the pilot in question may use a similar plan next time he crosses the channel, too!
FFF
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Seems that the pilot in question handled the situation fine from what I've read. Must be pretty scary if the wind isn't as forecast and the land doesn't appear where you expect it to. I like the sound of Miserlou's Plan B. I suspect the pilot in question may use a similar plan next time he crosses the channel, too!
FFF
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