SLF avoid travel on 737 max
 

As SLF, how can I best avoid future travel on 737 max?
There are some obvious ways, like book on an airline that doesn't have 737 max. Then could finish up on code share 737 max . Or in the event of overbooking or unserviceability etc, I am asked to travel with another operator who does have 737 max. Will an insurance company provide a policy that guarantees no financial loss if I have to refuse unplanned 737 max travel?
And will life insurance companies ask if I intend to travel on a 737 max when determining my premium? Will travel agents charge more if they guarantee no 737 max travel and will travel insurance companies then charge less?
All of this assumes that this grandfather will be permitted to fly again.

I'll be avoiding anyone who flies the plane and, if that isn't possible, then checking routes to see if they fly the Max on it. That doesn't help when/if the Max is switched on to the route at late notice; and I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it. After a good three/four years of trouble-free service I'll change my mind - but wild horses wouldn't drag me onto one in the near future!

Hi

The max will fly again and at least you will know its safe, there could be other manufacturers planes flying around with yet to be known issues so there is no guarantee in any plane or even life for that matter,you have a much greater chance of being killed some other way. If you do refuse to fly the max simply check what equipment they use when booking

Wayne

That is part of the problem though - as SLF I really don't trust the FAA on this matter. If it was given a full top to bottom sign-off by EASA or an independent regulator, as if it were an entirely new plane, then I would have more comfort. But FAA have shown themselves to be in Boeing's pocket so I will need experience of lots of them flying around without incident before I will trust it.

Yes thats fair enough but makes you wonder what other shortcuts were taken with other models or manufacturers also, merry christmas

Wayne

Noting that the type did have nearly two years of "trouble free service" prior to the first accident.

Can you tell us who an independent regulator is please?

As far as I know all of the regulators are owned and operated by the governments of sovereign states and as such are an instrument of government policy. Separating politics from this is impossible.

Don't worry, the airlines are already taking the necessary steps to ensure that you'll never even know you're flying on it :ok:
https://simpleflying.com/vietjet-boeing-737-max/amp/

I have over 10,000 hours flying the B737. I would fly on a Max in a heartbeat. I would let my family fly on a Max in a heartbeat.
What has been lost in the billions of words that have been written since the Max accidents is that you need 3 simultaneous events;
1. An angle of attack sensor failure
2. An inappropriate ( I’m being sensitive here) response by the flight crew.
3. Flight crew allowing the scenario to develop beyond the point where it was recoverable.
Since the events , every B737 pilot on the planet has been briefed on the failure mode and the correct response.
Most will , if they work for a reputable carrier , have already conducted simulator training.
In short , it won’t happen again.
Whats way more important is choosing which carrier you fly on.
Boeing is in a world of pain but the anxiety that prompts the posters question is panic , pure and simple.
Whether or not the Max is recoverable is debatable . But hysteria has taken over. Very sad.

Well said!

autoflight and James 1077

Your concerns are an over reaction

George Glass hit the nail on the head when he said

• Whats way more important is choosing which carrier you fly on.

Whatever the issues with the Max I'd spend more time worrying about the drive to the airport - that's much more likely to kill you.

Forget the aircraft. Be picky with the operator.

I think its all very well for experienced crew and engineers to comment about the Max but we live in an age of hysterical mass media which often panics politians. Not helped by Boeings dodgy business culture and the FAA becomeing a tool of the industry it reglates,gosh whoever thought that regualtors might be honest or impartial?

But give a dog a bad name these days and it sticks for along time and lets face it the poor old Max is just that -old, it is like derivate number 10 of the stubby little thing I first saw land at LHR in Lufthansa colours close on 50 years ago. the Max seems like a digital version of the Beech 1900 which had about 8 extra aerofoil surfaces to cancel out what were no doubt all kinds of aerdynamic puzzles that arose from turning a little King Air into a mini airliner

Not that any paintwork is visibly by SLF from the boarding tunnels and in any event by that time it is too late as your baggage is already loaded and refusing to follow it would cause all sorts of issues. Much better to check at the time of booking.

Maybe they should rebrand it the "Mad Max"?

And; What every pax, etc.particularly those wishing to peddle anti Boeing propaganda need to ask themselves is:

Have they checked to see if their motor vehicle is subject to any recalls and if so. have they ensured they have done something about it?
Do they actually have their vehicle regularly serviced according to the manufactures laid down procedures by an approved manufacturers service organisation?
Do the drive their vehicle exactly a laid down by the manufacturer?
Do they fully obey the laws and rules of the road?

When booking an airline ticket is price the primary consideration?
Do they check the world airline accident and incident statistics of airlines chosen to fly with prior to purchasing their ticket?
Does the choice of airline include the airlines accident/incident history?

How do they know whether the quality of the airline training or quality of it's pilots is of a continuous world high standard?

Are they able to fully identify which aircraft they have flown in or will fly in?
What will they do if the airline changes the aircraft type after booking or prior to boarding? And will they know what type has been substituted?

Many more questions should be asked however, if the SLF and others promoting anti Boeing propaganda cannot at least answer all of the above perhaps they require a substantial rethink of their personal safety!

Personally, I'd rather wait a couple of years to see how the Max goes. I'd happily fly any other Boeing plane, but I can wait a few years before I entrust my life to it.

All the reasons given to fly it when it enters service are logical just as they were before each of those two planes crashed. I'm happy to wait for a bit of real world evidence.

A man moves into an apartment next to you. You see him load a dead body into his trunk. He asks you to help him move a large box in the basement. And it's 3am. Makes you wonder what Mrs.Morrison from the third floor could do with her knitting kit. Merry Christmas to you, too!

Where's the Like button when you need one! :)

I'm with you! You need a change every once in a while.

Nope.

(10 characters)

Nope what?

Getting back to the OP's original questions, or some of them, Wikipedia is a pretty good source of identifying, not just the current and forthcoming types they operate but also, their codeshare partners, then a further Wikipedia search identifies the types that codeshare partner operates etc.

EASA are going to hold Boeing 'to the fire' in this but the company will survive.

How the Max makes it through is still a case of wait and see. But, I think, it will survive.

This may be one of the most important topics in aviation history - so please reply thoughtfully. From Day 1, PPRuNe has had the rule, 'Play the Ball - not the Player'.

avoid default 737 max travel
 

All genuine responses have been “on message”, particularly those from James 1077, Jetman346, wheels down, Luke SkyToddler, Stickshift3000, Gliderman2 and Preemo.

My post was never intended to develop into accusations of anti Boeing propaganda, but to explore the alternatives to default 737 max travel. It is more than the company deserves, but any current anti 737 max sentiment is suppressed in this thread, and for the moment, I travel on 787, 777 and other 737 models without special concern.

I also continue to carefully drive my diligently maintained car in accordance with the law (allowing adequate time for traffic etc), trust my chosen family doctor (to a degree) and keep a good eye on those airlines with multiple serious incidents and accidents. In a life before retirement from airlines, free worldwide travel was offered by a flag carrier. I did not take up the offer due their poor safety history. Airlines that unsafely fly over warlike missile equipped areas, due to laziness, lack of research or for fuel savings are permanently on my no-fly list. So are those with ultra cheap fares that, IMHO, cannot support quality staff and robust safety.

I have considered the issue of renaming MCAS equipped 737 to avoid ready recognition by pax. While I am confident that I can personally see through such smokescreens, most SLF will not be able to do so. Without publicity, of those who last minute realise their mistake, there will only be the occasional failure to board.

Geoge Glass, rude stuff, 27/09 and Dark Knight 19 will have a lot of humble pie to consume if there is another 737 max flight control system related accident. Any surviving passengers and the relatives of the deceased will be possibly a little more upset?

On the other hand, those who inconveniently make the hard decision to avoid 737 max will sit down to Christmas dinner with their loved ones, year after year. Their only regret will be that a handful of 737 pilots had to retire early and perhaps drive a taxi at 2 am in pouring rain with drunk and vomiting passengers. I suggest that some those 737 max advocates face humiliation and financial loss. Otherwise why would they jump into propaganda mode on a thread that just seeks reasonable personal solutions. They are not simple solution seekers.

auto flight , what is driving your anxiety ? Do you fully understand what happened in those accidents ? My informed position is based on almost 40 years in aviation and than 15,000 hours flying Boeing aircraft.

autoflight
No.
Both this thread and a previous one in the forum, have allowed plangent criticism and that will continue to be allowed. What is not allowed, is wild speculation, unfounded criticism and personal attacks on others posting.

First, it's NOT "propaganda". This word is so overused and even more misunderstood. "Propaganda" against something that kills people is FINE. Even more so against the company that manufactures something knowing that it will kill people. It's called caution and it should be appreciated.

Second, max sentiment is NOT suppressed here, I assure you. I've only been here for a few a months and I honestly don't know what kind of people local admins are. But I've just come from a.nother forum where I got a 3-month ban for saying that Airbus sells more planes than Boeing. Admins there REALLY suppress anything that even hints that their beloved Boeing isn't the "greatest planemaker in the world". THAT's bad. And I don't really see this here. Yet?

Third, and maybe foremost, OF COURSE there are people here who love Boeing. And OF COURSE you got some knee-jerk reaction. Some of the people here flew or fly Boeing. Some of them LOVE the company. For some what's happening to it is a personal tragedy. Of course they are angry at you for saying you won't fly "the Max". Just calm down and fly Airbus. :)

PS How, in the name of everything that's holy, did you manage to only write 300 posts in TWENTY years!? :)

autoflight

I think you miss the point I made.

While no one can say any aircraft will not crash for any particular reason, however with the changes to the 737 Max system and the training that will most definitely be mandated there are other factors that are significantly more likley to cause an accident on Air Transport jet aircaft in the future than a control problem on a 737 Max.

The MAX name is tainted, and I doubt any UK/Euro airline will ever use that tag again, if and when at the RTS of the aircraft.

The OP states he does not wish to fly in a MAX and lives in OZ - A fair few OZ, Pacific and Asian airlines have or (edit) will have the aircraft so he if wants to avoid booking on one then he needs to research his booking and airline options.

TUI UK have removed any reference in their online holiday and flight brochures (and also the Our Fleet section) that they have the MAX...
TUI's CEO has already said to the Press they are mooting a name change.
TUI's social media erupted in March after the 2nd crash with 1000's of it's UK customers demanding to cancel/amend their Hols, and vociferous demands that TUI voluntarily grounded the plane.
Customers are now ''informed'' so don't be fooled that airlines will not have an issue when they do reintroduce their fleets.
This is not 1979, we had no social media at the time of the DC-10 groundings 40 years ago, and the fleet then re-entered venerable service.
The MAX debacle coverage in the Press and SM now means the public are hearing in real-time the trials and tribulations within Boeing, the aviation and regulatory authorities, and also what is playing out in the Senate and in the Courts.

Ryanair CEO MOL has already crassly stated 'no refunds' if you are booked on a MAX with them.
FR have now painted out the word ''MAX'' off the noses of their new aircraft sitting at Boeing awaiting delivery.
FR have ordered a unique version known as the 737 MAX 8 -200.
Their planes now have just Boeing 737 8-200 on their noses - Pax will only know from the differing seat map when booking, but not all pax pay to reserve a seat.

I personally (in the UK) would not go on a MAX in a hurry, I am only likely ever to see one if I booked a TUI package holiday (or take a Ryanair flight and that is not likely lol)
I am not in the market to book West jet, AC or Norwegian for my travel plans (all of whom have the type)
BA Comair I do use, and they have a sole example for now.

Maybe not since 1952 with de Havilland DH 106 Comet 1 have we seen such a major aviation story with design flaws.
The Comet 1 was in airline service for just under two years before grounding, the same as the MAX.
In that time it killed 110 souls, compared with the MAX's 346.
Much smaller aircraft but the seriousness of design flaws does not outweigh that.
The Comet 1 was redesigned, reappearing 4 years later as the Comet 4.

MCAS seems so deeply rooted in the 737 MAX's flight control systems is that why Boeing still cannot fathom out a safe fix to ensure the aircraft's stability in all flight envelopes.
Also seem that no MCAS = no type approval using the 1967 737-100/200 type approval Grandfather rights.
To now re-design the air frame to remove the need for MCAS will surely mean a new type approval needed.
The MAX production is now to be halted after almost a year's grounding so we remain to see how the MAX's future will play out.

Virgin Australia

I was inferring to who has them, or who has ordered them....Sorry I thought my scribe was pretty fulfilling and obviously general, but I have made an edit

Virgin Oz have deferred/delayed their large order until 2021.

Australian regulators will want their own approval if and when the MAX is said to be safe to RTS.

No, at the time you book, an airline is obliged to tell you if the flight is operated by another carrier and, if so, which one.

I'm pretty sure that all Max variants have/will have MCAS.

What's your source for the statement that the Max 10 won't ?