PCCC
 

this is a welcome development.

to prevent it becoming another BASSA it is essential that ordinary members do read and challenge everything put before them. and, you the ordinary member, must be prepared to take office. ideally, no one should remain in office for more than say 3 years. ( is there i wonder a limit as to how many of each CC grade can serve on the executive?)

remember 'all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely' and 'all that it needs for evil to flourish is for good men (and women) to do nothing'

i do wish PCCC good fortune.

Congrats to pccc
 

Congrats to pccc.

I am impressed that some one has the courage and sense to look for a better way forward. Let us hope that they can get more and more members.

Joao - the creation of DH and LaLa et al is completely down to BA managers in the past. I've been going on about this for a couple of years. BA has moved on, bassa has not.

However, approx 4,000 BA CC will probably take part in Industrial action of some sort. DH can't be a "leader" without those followers.

It remains in the hands of BA managers to get out and about, where the crew are, (not in HQ) to find and solve problems, and to talk face to face to their staff.

I would fire any crew manager who had more than, say, 25% of their staff take part in IA.

AO
 

Blunt as ever, but some fair points. I am sure Bassa would love so see an amount of managers dismissed, but at what level? Starting at the top?

If all that BA promise is true, then any manager should be able to walk up to a group of crew and defend all of the current proposed protections on offer. This is what the best managers do at times like this. Not one to ones, but a sizable group.

Maybe this is what the PCCC will do too. This may seem harsh to some, but this new fleet has appeared under Unites watch, on terrible T&C's in comparison to existing employees. You cannot deny that.

There is an arguement that if all crew had stayed in Bassa and Unite had served notice on both agreements prior to this whole process and come back with a single recognition arrangement, then things may have been different. But that is hindsight again which serves no purpose today.

The PCCC have been threatening to come out for well over a year now. Had they come to the fore and began recruiting openly some months back they would be in a position to have some influence. No doubt they have their reasons for staying under cover. Should a figure head at the very least be brave enough to stand up and be counted? Would that aid the recruitment process and make things a lot easier in the long run?
No doubt they will have no recognition problems within BA. If they are run properly I wish them all the success they will deserve. I do envisage a split within BA between those who will see it as a management tool (whether or not it is justified) and those who see it as a new TU. As they have said little I'll keep any judgement until they show what they are about.
I am not a fan of Unite. It was pretty obvious from the start that the main problem was always going to come from the ex T&G branches. The set up for negotiations seems to be unique within BA and that is a weakness for both the TU and the Company. It's time all of that was also addressed.

Indeed, if you look at the front page of the Bassa website (as slf I can't go any further) you will see that they say they are the largest branch of the T&GW.

Personally, as SLF, I'm delighted to see the PCCC coming to the fore. Fresh thinking, honesty and a willingness to discuss the issues.

Good luck to you all ... I'd make a donation to funds, but I couldn't see a way.

MPN 11
 

Re PCCC, I've emailed them to ask that very question. If I receive a reply I'll forward it. Anything to put an end to Bassa & it's awful heritage.

If that is what they represent great...Problem is nobody knows anything about their policies or structures. So you are only guessing they are honest and willing.
I hope you are right by the way..

call100:

True..we will wait to see what the PCCC represents. Your cautionary comments regarding their policies, procedures are taken...but in the face of BASSA's policies of outing disagreeing members, blatant misrepresenting of facts ( planes parked at Cardiff, etc.) and their constant and agressive insistence on smearing other Union members who disagree with their stance, forgive us for hoping for something better for not only BA but Cabin Crew.

Truly, how could they do worse than BASSA in this situation? If a representative body emerges that will be a strong advocate for its members with a real world sensibility who could object to the progress?

Cabin Crew deserve more than missives regarding tomatoes and alcohol intake. How wonderful if they could regain not only their employer's, but the public's respect in how they approach their position.

I'd write a check in support.

The people usually get the representation they deserve. That aside I hope all the expectation morphs into action. Rather than give them support just because they are an alternative, I'll wait until they prove to be a viable alternative.
I know BASSA won't be a hard act to follow and the PCCC may be the answer. However, I'll hold onto my money for the time being thank you very much...

call100
 

Interesting. How would you quantify the ability of the PCCC?

Diplome
 

I think your last post is a bit political (not a criticism,but an observation)l. I do not think the PCCC will be forging many policies for some time. Hopefully they will just be doing what they believe is right for their membership.

Unite champion equality, working time and health and safety etc. All just and sound causes. The PCCC will mainly be about a fresh perspective in this current dispute.

They have obviously done their homework and are now a certified TU. If they take on Unite and existing agreements, they will loose. If they are going to go anywhere, then a mixed fleet recognition agreement will be the first step.

Now feel free to comment on this, but it is a discussion point not a view. BA have now got complete control of the cabin crew community. Unite will be United soon, but there is now the "Third Man' in the equation.

I have no way of judging. The lack of information or indeed personalities inhibits anyone forming any worthwhile opinion of ability or capability.

A union or a works council should be about the members not the personalities at the top. Hasn't alot of the past few years been more to do with the egos of the Bassa head table rather than the need to move forward.
So does it matter who is at the top of the PCCC as long as they exsist for the members not their own egos.

Call100

You make a very good point.

As long as the leaders of PCCC remain anonymous, it is difficult to form an opinion of their capabilities and attitudes.

Writing a cheque to an an known organization may be cathartic, but the halo effect may have more to do with this feeling that any other factor.

A bit of leadership is required, if PCCC shows this, there is a great opportunity to breathe fresh air into the arena.

Joao de Silva
 

I quite agree. However, harking back to the early days of the PCCC, the instigators, Hi Flyer etc, were living in fear of intimidation by the more militant members of Bassa.

I assume that they are still fearful of possible recriminations, hence their reticence to step into the spotlight of full disclosure. Obviously this will hinder their potential to gain members.

There is no doubt the formation of PCCC is a very good one. It is just what BA want - they might not think that now but they will. There are clearly some very fine, good cabin staff working for BA and they deserve to have an honest body represent them - no leaders or reps who think the union belongs to them. There is no room for that.

The rules for running it have to be crystal clear so that everyone can trust everyone else.

Congratulations to the those who set this up. But please get it under way very soon. I will happily donate to it.

I am not sure I agree about an announcement on the PCCC executive. If I went into my workplace and asked a union member who his officer was, I am confident there would be a don't know response. I would also be surprised if more than a handful knew the name of the General Secretary either.

It would be enough for me just to see the effort that a group of workers have put into setting this listed union up.

Would I leave Unite to join an association like the PCCC? Not a chance. The funding and support that Unite offer me and the people I work with, will not be matched by a free association. However, if I had left Bassa because of the direction it had taken, then what would I have to loose by joining the PCCC? A potential voice is better than none. However, I would look at what the JGS's secured as an offer and if I felt that it was acceptable to me, I would rejoin Unite for the member benefits.

The website looks slick and the words it contains sound reasoned and balanced.

I know this post is a bit disjointed and it is my 3rd attempt too!

Thanks, Finky ... appreciate that. :ok:

Isn't it interesting? ... the poor, battered, SLF talking about donating funds to a CC union!! :cool:

LB
I agree there is more to a TU than a current dispute and making a decision to leave one for another would not be an easy one or one taken in haste.
That is why I think someone should be putting the PCCC out there as a viable alternative rather than relying on people to join just because it's not BASSA. I don't know if they are going to be any good for the members or just good for the Daily Mailites. Either way the people need to know.
As for who leads it, normally I would agree with your view about members not knowing who leads nationally. It is all usually about local representation. In this case though the PCCC is being formed locally within one company. So who leads and voices the policies may be important this time around.
None of this would be the way I would have dealt with the whole situation, it is, unfortunately the way that BA CC find themselves heading. Ultimately it is they who will make the decisions. I can't help thinking that the camp will be divided for a long time to come...

Litebulbs
The BASSA Branch Secretary has been widely blamed for this dispute. He has been painted as some sort of messianic demi-god whose rhetoric and oratory skills have lead his adoring, unthinking followers to the abyss. However, those who know him will agree that if his IQ was as big as his ego he would have outsmarted BA and negotiated a tremendous deal for crew whilst producing the cost savings required. His incoherent newsletters are hardly inspirational or revolutionary and those who have heard him address an audience realise he is no Churchill. The PCCC are being hailed as the new broom that will sweep BASSA away.
What will remain however, are the 5751 crew who voted ‘Yes’.
I flew to South America over the festive season and was looked after by a truly excellent steward. He was warm and friendly, personable, efficient, humorous and charming, not just to my wife and I but to the rest of the passengers in the cabin. He told me quite candidly that he had voted for the strikes and would vote ‘Yes’ again. However, he would not go on strike as he couldn’t afford to lose his ST as he commuted from France. Nonetheless, he spent his days off on the picket line to show solidarity with his colleagues. His arguments for strike action are eerily similar to ‘Crewfriend’ who posts on the other thread.

He told me he never reads anything from BA, considers he does not have a manager, regards ‘the office’ as somewhere you have to go when you are in trouble and spends as little time in CRC as possible. He comes to work, does a good job and flies home immediately afterwards. How do you manage an employee like that when he’s 7 miles above the earth and you’re in your office at Waterside? He is not part of an absentee workforce; it's his management that's absent. There are many inspirational, charismatic, competent CSDs who would regard this guy as a model crew member.

What will the PCCC have to do to tempt him and his 'good solid comrades' away from BASSA?

call100
 

Will one of the founder members of PCCC be an official of the union, or a representative of the union? In my experience, when things get to be a bit spicy, you get the FTO involved. That way, there is no potential recriminations against an employee. If this set up gains momentum, it will only be employees who are both officers and reps.

This goes back to my question, what is a union and where does the PCCC sit within current legislation?

I suppose all it takes is a partner of an employee to take the General Secretary role....

Paddy
 

I would not suggest any ideas to tempt a member of my union, to leave and join another one.

I personally thing that it would have been better for the PCCC to be a movement within Bassa. All the facilities to negotiate are currently in place. If the individuals who set up the PCCC were willing to stand, then the change would have come from within, IF their fellow workers wanted the change of direction, but 6000 don't seem to see it that way.

Those that have left and accepted the new contract, are accepting a deal negotiated by Unite at the highest level.

However, I am still nervous on the direction of my union under its new leadership. I still could be making a choice between the trade union movement/service provider.

p.s. I still am impressed with the PCCC however. It must have taken a huge amount of time and effort to get where it is today.

PCCC within BASSA
 

Point well made, Litebulbs.
However, even if the PCCC were able to have themselves elected to the leadership of BASSA, perhaps on a ticket of providing their members with a service there would still be those BASSAites like 'Crewfriend' who see the function of their union as a stick with which to beat their employer.

Litebulbs:

I agree that it would been a good thing for a movement such as PCCC to function within BASSA. Unfortunately the leadership of BASSA make that impossible. Mr. Holley's commentary on the BASSA forum seems to allow no dissent with some serious repurcussions for challenging him openly.

Comments on the CC thread seem to indicate that we will soon see the "face" of the PCCC. I'm sure that they realize that their chance of success will require more than just the website.

Like you I'm impressed with what they have accomplished. It seems that while I was assuming they were simply inactive they have been busy behind the scenes. Well done them.

Paddy
 

You could equally say Bassa is a buffer from an employers strong arm tactics.

To me it is still about the fact that as a rep you are an employee first. However, as you move more into the day to day running of a branch, you will definitely have two hats.

I don't have any questions.
IF the cabin crew desire to make complete fools of themselves by walking out, it's no skin off my nose.
It would appear that some BA cabin crew have lost sight of the fact that times are tough in the airline industry, and airline companies need to make healthy profits to make up for the hefty losses experienced from time to time.

BA will survive, with or without their malcontent cabin crew...I fully expect without.

Who will mostly benefit?
Other airlines.

Two Hats
 

Well, if the PCCC have people like some of the reasonable crew who post on here then there is every hope that PCCC/BASSA/Unite will work together and alongside BA to achieve a profitable, well-managed, customer focused airline at last. Worker representation at board level would be a good start.......as long as you don't have to wear a hat in the board room, that is... ;)

Take cover 411A has entered the room, with his centre left views:E

Yer avin' a laugh!

As if any responsible Board of Directors is going to discuss commercially confidential business in the presence of a 'worker' who could not read a balance sheet, is going to report back to the likes of DH and McClunky, then have the proceedings spun beyond belief in the meeja to the amusement and gain of Beardie et al.

Get real!

Is there any news from the BASSA camp yet as it seams they have gone all quiet.

Is it 7 or 28 days that they need to advise BA of their first strike dates.

They have 28 days in which to announce strike dates VCC, so plenty of time for them yet. Its in Duncan's interests to string this saga along for as long as possible, and the later they leave it, the warmer it'll be at Bedfont* :rolleyes:

*A thought has just occured to me - won't Bedfont FC actually need use of their pitch during the football season?

Question for those that know:

In a protected strike, is the 12 week period from the strike ballot result, or from when the strikes are announced?

Or to phrase it another way - is the protected period (if the strike is protected) already running, and so by waiting, are they reducing the period they can actually strike for?

Taken to extreme (if this were the case) - call the strike after 28 days(4 weeks), and give the 1 week notice, means you reduce the protected period to 7 weeks. Is this the case? In which case, it isn't in the unions interest to wait, as they reduce the length and impact of any strike.

Of course if it is from the announcement of the strikes, then it makes sense to wait, as you disrupt BA bookings for 5 weeks + 12 weeks.

The action must start in 28 days.

They must announce 7 days before so must be announced by Friday fortnight (21days from ballot)

The protected period starts from first strike.

BA will almost certainly say there isnt a protected period as its a continuation of the existing dispute. BA probably wont announce their intentions until after strike dates are announced. Unite may want to take this to court before any strike, so the longer they leave it the greater the risk of the ballot timing out.

On the other forum there is debate whether PCCC reps/officers should be paid.

I was a rep in the old Apex union in the eighties for almost seven years and along with three colleagues were never paid for any work/time spent on union business. It didn't even occur to us to expect it.. We all took on the role, because we wanted to represent the views of our colleagues (not always the same as our own) to the best of our ability. BA gave us a limited amount of time for union business even when we were in dispute, however much of the time was during our days off.

It seems extraordinary to me that the BASSA hierarchy could be creaming off a percentage of their colleagues subs to line their own pockets. That is NOT what unionism should be about. It is not unreasonable for them to claim out of pocket expenses and for the full time Unite officials to be paid a decent salary, but to me the role of the lay rep should be on a purely voluntary unremunirated basis. I hope that the PCCC reps will take the same view.

Litebulbs, I would be particularly interested in your views on this.

Of course your post shows how much above that 'worker' you float. It actually shows your total ignorance of the level of partnership working there is and the level of education of a lot of reps.
No doubt you will carry on in your misguided irrelevant beliefs, however, now you can't claim you didn't know....

Completely agree with your post. In 33 years of representing people I never got paid. Working on shifts often meant that everything was on your days off.
Expenses were even something I only claimed when travelling nationally.
I've never quite believed the BASSA 'pay scale' for it's officials. I certainly don't agree with it if it's true....The PCCC should certainly not pay any reps in my view.

gr8tballsoffire
 

Do I think reps should be paid? Hmm, I would love to be. I claim payment if I have a meeting on a day off, if it is a company called meeting. Union business, never. My company foot the bill for travel for their meetings and my union do, if it is theirs.

However, if you start paying reps, you get reps who may be in it for the buck, rather than the role. You would also loose all credibility. I probably do more unpaid work than anybody else in my company (as I am not employed as a rep so the home hours put in are not because of my employed role), but that is my choice. I also can be voted out every two years.

So, no, I don't think you should be paid for the role of a rep, but I do think you should be paid for working a day off.

EDIT - Apology for the bit in red, right up my own bot bot and disrespectful to all that work in their own time.

'E's not a "messianic demi-god"; 'e's a very naughty shop steward!


[A 'demagogue', perhaps?]

Very good, CCC :ok: