Yes Lotpax I agree with your last posting._ But everyone has a different vista of the World._ I am limited by my view that within every individual is the wish for good for neighbours and strangers - but this wish coexists with an opportunist potential that results in the exploitation of others._ Most people will completely disagree and will helpfully explain that they themselves happen to be altruistic in nature (what a pity that do-gooder has become word of insult).

The quote from Mrs Justice Cox was to highlight that the fault was Unite and not BASSA._ This time last year Unite and BASSA were singing from the same page in the hymn book._ Since then, there was a sermon._ BASSA did not listen to the sermon._ But if the window-blind episode is anything to go by, Unite have understood the words and taken them back to their Chapel._ IMO 2011 will be a watershed for BASSA cabin crew - and non-BASSA cabin crew members need to be understanding and helpful.

As 'self loading freight', customer, passanger - in fact whatever you like to call me I have been reading this thread for what seems like forever.

I appreciate that the current 'dispute' affects many people differently - so let me tell you as one who is COMPLETELY outside of these events apart from being a potential customer how it affects me and my thoughts and opinions.

I travel a lot by air within Europe and I will NEVER use BA unless forced ever again. Over a longish period of time I have found the cabin crew to be arrogant and dismissive, to do the least required and to treat the customers as a 'have to be endured nuisance'.

I don't care whether they are members of BASSA, UNITE or the local church wives/husbands group, on our last 4 flights my wife and me have been made to feel as if we (and the other passangers) are merely an inconvenient annoyance.

I would not like to have to think of any crew member having to work in an unpleasant atmosphere - whatever their views, but perhaps some of them deserve it.

I look forward to the day when I can use BA again without wondering how unpleasant the experience will be.

Brocstar

Paranoid? I know exactly what I am talking about. My name was mentioned, from what I can remember, twice in one of your previous messages. There's no need for you to claim otherwise.

Why should I leave BA? Because I happen to be unsatisfied with our present management who are wanting to get rid of us because we are too expensive? Perhaps if you were in my situation you would might feel the same way.

MissM has advise me that:No, MissM, quite the opposite.

If I was in your situation I would consider my personal situation, the general state of my health, the deleterious effects of the strain caused by the events at my place of work during the last couple of years, and the consequent effects of all this on the people closest to me.

If I was in your situation I would also consider the fact that the leadership of the trade union that I had so passionately supported, and to which I had faithfully contributed to every month, had clearly not acted in my best interests.

If I was in your situation I would ask the leadership of that union why, after more than a year and a half of dealing with my employer, it had not managed to reach any sort of equable solution to its original grievance.

If I was in your situation I would further ask the leadership of my union just why it made braggart declarations that misled its members. The return of staff travel privileges "within five minutes" is but one of those foolish assertions. You, of all people, will no doubt remember (and cringe at the memory of) many, many more of those bombastic statements.

If I was in your situation I would ask myself just what future I have with an employer who has cleverly side-stepped my trade union and its inept leadership, which has made a considered decision to push on with its business plan without further reference to diehard strikers and bovine dissenters.

If I was in your situation, having taken all of the above into consideration, I would ask myself if it would be worth my while to risk being shunted into a dead-end position with my employer (do you really want to stay as a purser until SOSR, compulsory redundancy or retirement catch up with you?). After all, it is you who has admitted that your costs of employment by British Airways are expensive, not me.

If I was in your situation, and having been let down by my bumbling and incompetent union branch secretary and my self-serving union representatives, I would consider my job-related assets and skills and seek more congenial employment.

There is a whole world and possibly a better life outside British Airways' world-wide fleet, you know. No getting out of the country every week or so to far-flung and (possibly) exotic places, and no strutting and preening on airport concourses so that all and sundry can see you in your BA uniform, that much is true, but meaningful and satisfying work nevertheless that would benefit both you and the community at large.

As for your assertion that your so what? Those who live by the pen must be prepared to . . .

Puzzled
 

Wasn't the original dispute about 'imposition', regarding removal of one position per crew (or getting the nco's to chip in with the general effort) ? Where did the 'want to get rid of us' bit come from, a compulsory redundancy exercise I haven't heard about ? Mind you, wouldn't doubt that things have changed and that perhaps now it is possible that many do in fact want a clean start without you.

My health is excellent, thank you. My personal situation is fine too.

BASSA are trying their very best to protect our interests including our terms and conditions. As an outside I can understand if this is difficult to acknowledge and understand.

Blame it on the union. Surely our management could never be responsible for not reaching an agreement with us.

Be rest assured that ST will be returned sooner or later. Personally I don't need it but many of our commuting crew do. Surprisingly there was a huge amount of commuters on strike which would indicate that the threat of removal of ST which BA made did not work. It would, on the other hand, indicate that they are worried about their careers.

As long as BA are in dispute with us there will never be any peace. It should also be in WW's best and personal interest to sort it out before he can actually move on to become the leader of IAG.

Strangely SOSR is something which has been rumoured for a very long time and has yet not been issued. Last time this rumour circulated was back in May during the strike. Personally I don't think they will ever issue it because otherwise it would have been.

I don't feel let down by my union. Of course there's a world outside BA but what if you happen to like your job? Has that ever crossed your mind?

So what? Maybe you don't understand but perhaps it was given to you in confidence, something which you don't seem to appreciate, as I never expected you to tattle it all over a public forum. Thanks a lot. I realise I never should have given it to you, but hey, we all make mistakes.

I suppose we must assume that the Moderator is satisfied that 'MissM' is real?

Glad you agree with +/- 90% of the readers of this thread MissM

Thirty pieces of silver?
 

MissM has reproved me, saying;

No, it may not. But how about the voluntary redundancy package that you seem to be so greedy and willing to accept - if its terms satisfy your requirements. See your post #62, 6 October 2010, at 17:45:Funny how even the most rabid union supporter has her (or his) price. Or is it possibly rodents desperately seeking to disembark from a vessel in distress?

I was being sarcastic...

I have only said that I have no intention of leaving BA. I would, however, consider leaving should they offer another round of a VR package. Why? Because our days are definitely counted in this company. Call me 'so greedy' if you wish but that's certainly not the case. If I could stay in BA until I retire I would.

Desperately seeking to disembark? Not at all.

And, please leave out '(or his)' in the future.

I see the bassa website is up to three x's!

You stick to your prose style, MissM, and I will stick to mine.

The same could be asked of you?

MissM
 

I would just like to say that you are holding yourself in a very professional manner. There are probably many things that we don't agree on, with the dispute in question, but I have complete respect in the way that you put your point.

However, my opinion doesn't really count for too much on pprune!

I fail to see how Miss M can be accused of being greedy for mentioning VR on the one hand, then be told she should leave BA on the other.

Doesn't make any sense to me and any reasonable person would consider a VR offer, before deciding whether it suited their needs or not.

I do not support BASSA's cause, but Miss M should not be pilloried for doing so.

Litebulbs

Thank you! The same could be said for you. And, your opinion does count. :)

Lotpax

The only person accusing me of being greedy is Chuchinchow who appears to have taken a hostile stance on me. I do agree with you that any reasonable person would consider leaving if VR is being offered. There's nothing wrong with it and certainly not a greedy behaviour. It would have been a greedy behaviour if I had expected or even demanded BA to offer it. That's not the case.

Thanks to you too :)

A hostile stance to me, perhaps, but still wrong.

And do not try to wriggle out of or to disavow statements you so clearly made here, in writing. Everybody has her (or his) price; in this case it is merely a question of when and how much MissM would accept.

It's only polite
 

...to drop the '(or his)' qualifier since this is implies some doubt over bona fides for which I see no cause.

Wasn't it proven in court that it was the unions fault an agreement wasn't reached due to the different parts of the union not even willing to be in the same room as each other?

An interesting refresher -

Malone & Ors v British Airways Plc [2010] EWHC 302 (QB) (19 February 2010)

The way I see the thrust of this, is that the contract was not linked clearly to industrial agreements. I am presuming that the appeal will be trying to prove the link.

Today is X/X/MMX (or X/X/X)
at 10 a.m. it will be X/X/X/X

Look out, the Normans are coming !
 

:} Give or take a millenium

On 17 December 2009, Mrs Justice Cox said
UNITE have found a crude way of preventing a reoccurrence of this error

Miss M
I am struggling to understand your attitude in this whole saga as you seem to contradict yourself a lot as evidenced by the following statements posted by yourself on this thread and on the other pprune threads.

Quote:

---

Quote from Chuchinchow to Miss M:
If I was in your situation I would ask the leadership of that union why, after more than a year and a half of dealing with my employer, it had not managed to reach any sort of equable solution to its original grievance.
Answer from Miss M: Blame it on the union (sarcastic). Surely our management could never be responsible for not reaching an agreement with us.

---

However, on 18th June 2010 you posted this response in another thread:
</B>So you know fully well that BA has tried to put in a reasonable proposal at least once by your standard, but your union chose to say no without consulting members, so don't say that BA is responsible for not reaching an agreement with you. You also recently said on 7th Oct. 2010:
</B>and on 9th October you said:

Quote:

---

.The Flying Nunn, Do you really have to ask this question again? I was asked it only a couple of days ago. Why did I go on strike? Because of imposition! Not due to the practical fact that crewing levels were changed but because they were changed without any negotiation.

---

But again, in earlier threads you admitted this:

Quote:

---

.Eddy, The strikes were not needed. They were never needed. They never should have taken place

---

Why then do you find it so difficult to understand that other crew chose not to strike with you when you yourself realised long ago that the strikes were not needed, never been needed and should never have taken place? Why do you despise them so much for arriving at the same conclusion as you had? Was it because you chose the wrong decision, i.e. back your union thinking that it will win the argument anyway by striking and when it didn't produce the result you were expecting, you begrudge those who didn't support the strike for getting it right? Do you really hate your non-striking colleagues so much for not being in the same hopeless situation as you are?
You keep saying that those who signed the last BA offer sold themselves down the river. You seem to forget that those lucky enough to sign the last BA offer are on a win-win situation as not only did they made sure that their contract will no longer deteriorate (at least for the time stated in the contract) but also, in the unlikely event that Bassa secure a better contract than the recent BA offer, they (the 1000 who signed) will also be entitled to the same better contract. So indeed, there is no reason imho, why non-strikers should now join you in your hopeless and ill-thought-of fight, although I can understand why you would want some company.
And now, I would like to echo the following question directed to you ages ago by Bridchen on the other thread, in reaction to your admission that the strike was never necessary.
Quote from Bridchen on 18 June 2010:

Quote:

---

.MissM, I'm almost lost for words. The same proposal that BASSA, according to your logic, rejected as they found it lacking, is now on reflection, a proposal you would wish to accept, if your ST was reinstated with DOJ. Your ST would have been intact with DOJ at the time of the proposal, before you went on strike, so then why aren't you asking what the union found so lacking about it? And to outright turn it down, instead of ironing out the details.
Yes, indeed, the strikes never needed to take place, therefore, why are you so willing to ride the open-top bus?

---

I, however would like to rephrase the last sentence: Yes, indeed, the strikes never needed to take place therefore why are you so willing to do it again and entice your colleagues to join you in your doomed plight?

I can not imagine BA negotiating for the removal of Mixed Fleet. MF is the “Crown Jewel” and the future for BA. By including “performance bonuses” in the MF package of benefits pay scale can always be tweaked in a way that rewards the best. Recruiting could be enhanced with first year bonus guarantees if it was appropriate or needed. Senior BASSA leadership do not care about MF as it does not affect them. Long term cost savings with MF are very, very significant not to mention the issues of management. I think ST is the issue which could be negotiated by BA. TW is quoted as saying (I have no knowledge of the authenticity of the quote) it was now about an exit strategy and getting members their travel privileges back. The question is what will BA receive in exchange for the reinstatement of ST to strikers? WW must maintain credibility with the other 30,000 BA employees.

Maybe there is no progress at all and Unite merely told BASSA there would be no ballot.

Is there any need for that? Bassa is not a person, so a sweeping generalisation will no doubt be insulting to quite a few people.

MissM, pontificating on the "other channel", advises us: Is that so, MissM?

Clearly you have worked for British Airways for so many years now that you have conveniently forgotten what it was like to be a novice stewardess.

C'mon [name deleted], you can do better than that!

Thanks for the lesson.:rolleyes: You missed the point. The personal attacks were/are getting out of hand. Mostly from people giving off a holier than thou attitude.
You failing to see why it would even up the playing field bothers me not....I would not expect anything else.

If I was a cynic I would think that BA had yet another invented persona on the forum of late, to make attacks. However, I am trying not to be cynical these days so maybe I won't think it...:hmm:

Call100:

If you have been reading any of the public forums you would realize that BA hardly need to "invent" a persona...the vast majority of individuals simply do not support BASSA's conduct or their position....whatever that may be from day to day.

The fact that BASSA is unaware of the status of present negotiations says much.

nononsense frank

A strike should always be taken as a last resort. Many of us felt that we were not getting anywhere with our management. Proposal after proposal was put forward to our management who declined every single one of them. Management in return presented proposals which included sanctions not considered to be fair. I don't believe that I took the wrong decision for going on strike. I chose to back my union who is responsible for our terms and conditions. If everyone who voted for industrial action had supported their vote as well VCC not interfearing in our dispute we never would have been here today. They are responsible for us being here today with a dispute still to be solved. Not us.

Personally I don't think that those who signed the individual offer this summer should be entitled to take advantage of our future proposal. They are clearly not willing to fight for our terms and conditions but instead relying on some of us fighting on their behalf.

meanwhile back in the real world..............

What will be interesting, is if the sacked workers reinstatement is part of the process being discussed. I doubt very much if BA will accept any re-engagement as a settlement, but do you think that BA should enter into an arbitration agreement and look at each case individually?

MissM:

BASSA's actions ARE the business of each and every BA employee. No division operates in a vacuum.

As for being upset regarding non-striking crew gaining the benefit of BASSA's actions....I would have to say that most are waiting for BASSA to actually gain anything in this dispute. So far its been a series of own goals.

Litebulbs:

I don't believe BA should, but it wouldn't shock me to see some sort of movement for purposes of settlement.

MissM wrote

Firstly Miss M I will be gobsmacked if Bassa get a better deal than was offered in June. It just wont happen. Also Its NOT upto YOU to say who is entitled to what. I mean if you honestly think any of the Bassa hierachy listen or better still actually act on what their members want then you must have been reading something differant to me in the last 18 months.

Finally I and many others would have HAPPILY fought to save our T/C's IF only Bassa had put realistic proposals to BA. How many times have it been said on here that Bassa's savings didn't add up. They were independently audited by PWC, but of course the Bassa reps didnt believe them!! I am frankly sick and tired of being told its OUR fault. Remember Bassa is NOT a closed shop anymore and its members pay £17/month for the 'priviledge' of being in Bassa. The members are supposed to be Bassa , but as MOST of us know Bassa is in reality DH and the rest of the top brass. Try saying ANYTHING to them that doesn't get their approval and the result is simply abuse

Litebulbs wrote


Quite simply why should they. I see another longhaul CSD got the sack this week. When I heard their name I wasn't surprised one iota. Another 'troublemaker'

Now it will be interesting to see how Unite and BA see the recognition agreement. It is my understanding that it is agreement with the union in question, with the employer, not the branch or membership. I would imagine that some pressure would be put onto the Bassa branch to accept, or face notice on the current agreement, by Unite. But that will be a gamble, if you believe the PCCC releases, on its growing membership.

Why wouldn't they? If the case was justified, then the dismissal would stand.

What unfair sanctions were there in BA's original offer to remove 1 crew member and offer VR - rejected out of hand by BASSA following their "no negotiation" vote?

Which "future proposal" will that be, MissM?

Who is going to put forward this "future proposal", MissM?

Will it be Liz Malone, the world famous authority on labour law, whose "advice" cost her BASSA followers dear?

Or will it be Duncan Holley, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, copywriter and agronome?

More to the point, of what might this "future proposal" consist,MissM?

Precis five of those proposals please, MissM.

No, that's too difficult a demand to make of a BASSA member; name three.

On 11 October 2010 MissM said
On 19 February 2010, Sir Christopher Holland (Sitting as a Judge of the High Court) said
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