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Unions are mutual traders, ie, they only have income from their own members, which they spend for those members benefit. There is no profit element involved, hence no tax is due and there is no requirement to submit accounts to the Revenue.
However, this does not mean that no accounts are prepared at all, a statement of income and what it is spent on can/should be prepared and supplied to members. |
Verryyy Interesing - - -
Looking in on the Cabin Crew forum to read the "BA Crew ONLY" thread and I find it is dead. But the very interestin thing is another thread below the "crew ONLY" thread titled "BA LHR Mixed Fleet". This thread has been LOCKED! Read the entire thread and can see NO REASON for it being locked. No attacks of any kind - no playing the person rather than the ball!! All in all, a very harmless thread full of polite posts.
Is it now the rule of the "flying dragonS" that there can only be ONE thread in the CC forum about BA CC - in ANY form? Are we allowed to post in this thread using the words - "BA" or "CC" or "cabin crew"? Only time will tell. . . . Mystified in Texas . . . :sad: |
AASLF, it isn't dead, it is bedtime in the UK. But I too am mystified why the MF thread was closed with no explanation. From what I read it was quite informative. Maybe there were subsequent removed posts that caused it to be locked.
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Tax
LD & Observer
Thanks for the response - if I have this correctly ..... The only requirement for accounts, is that which an individual union decides it wants, (if any), for internal purposes and maybe to show its membership where their money goes ......... So, any taxes payable are those due as personal tax, from any individuals who are in receipt of money from the union, for any purpose to do with carrying out union duties in some fashion, be it attendance money for reps or full blown salary for union officials, such as Branch Secretary, Chairman, etc.. For example, as CC, this would of course be in addition to their normal employment income, for which BA supply details to HMRC. Presumably therefore, there is a requirement upon the union as an employer, to provide details of payments made to individuals, in which case I would presume there to be normal employment and accounting records and of course those covering overheads - or is there some loophole whereby this can be avoided - do HMRC only look at the individuals declarations ? In theory, this seems to be a decent sized black hole, which money can be poured into and vanish. I find it hard to believe in this day and age, that there are not any other checks and balances. |
The MLF thread was closed for good reason
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Unite the union would have a PAYE scheme in operation for its salaried staff either full or part time.
I do not know whether attendance money paid to reps who lose money as they are 'off work' is taxed at the time of payment by the union, but it would be taxable on the individual who should declare it to HMRC by self assessment if it is not taxed, or taxed at the wrong rate. The Union would have to declare any untaxed payments made, and there is a form to be submitted to HMRC to do this, it is sent along with the normal end of tax year payroll documentation. Some payments made to reps etc might be classed as expenses, and as the union has a PAYE scheme with the Revenue, HMRC may have been involved in determining what they can class as expenses and pay tax free (just as they have with CC and pilot allowances) I do not know if BASSA have any directly paid employees, they may all be paid by Unite, rather than locally, but if paid by BASSA, they would also have a PAYE scheme, and the same rules would apply. |
Just to add a bit of clarity to this. BASSA is not a union. It is a branch of a union, Unite, therefore it escapes a lot of bothersome interference by accountants, Certification office, HMRC etc.
The main union UNITE has to provide details of its finances, administration costs, payments to General Secretary etc. each year and publish it to members. The tax man has shown interest in BASSA in the past and I think an investigation may still be ongoing. The fact that BASSA never tells its members anything about the finances means they tend never to feature on the members list of priorities. One day a group of brave souls will go to a members meeting and demand to see the books as is their right under rule, but I wont hold my breath! |
Why would they have to be brave? There is no irregularity.
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Come now Litebulbs. Irregularity or no irregularity we have seen what happens to individuals who question any action on the part of BASSA leadership. It would take someone brave or reckless to openly question any of the BASSA leadership nest.
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Diplome
Oh to be the brave and reckless at Bedfont. I would see it as a personal responsibility to open my mouth, if I did not believe or trust my leaders. I am sure I could muster up more than a few friends to protect me from a cabin crew mob.
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I would count those at Bedfont as reckless, but hardly brave.
..and I believe you underestimate just how spiteful BASSA leadership can be when dealing with dissent. This is not a "normal" union we are speaking of...its something quite different. |
I was rather of your view Litebulbs, I failed to understand what could be feared from a CC mob, what where they going to do, break into your home and criticise your curtains?
However, the peer pressure and pack mentality in play is actually a lot more real than you might imagine if you haven’t been exposed to it. |
Fair points, but it would not be the individual against the mob, if you believe the figures on 'ere. It is easy not to feel threatened sitting in front of a monitor typing, but I am a rep and like most reps outside of BASSA, I am the one getting it in the neck, from faceless people on a keyboards or standing up at meetings telling employees their jobs are at risk. As I hope you can imagine, that is not all hamburgers, ribbons, xxxx's and yellow pens.
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Just to add a bit of clarity to this. BASSA is not a union. It is a branch of a union, Unite, therefore it escapes a lot of bothersome interference by accountants, Certification office, HMRC etc. However, payments of out of pocket expenses could be made without HMRC involvement, if that was all that was paid. Generally, any organisation/club which collects subscriptions from members, prepares accounts to present to members showing how their money has been spent. These accounts are usually available to members to approve at an AGM. This has nothing to do with HMRC requirements. Mutual trading organisations can be expected to make Returns to HMRC in certain circumstances, see this link HM Revenue & Customs: Unincorporated organisations and Corporation Tax |
Originally Posted by just an observer
(Post 6045332)
If BASSA make payments of salary to any officials, they would be required to have a PAYE scheme. Whether or not they were a union, or a branch of one, would not matter, only if said salary were paid from their own funds.
However, payments of out of pocket expenses could be made without HMRC involvement, if that was all that was paid. Generally, any organisation/club which collects subscriptions from members, prepares accounts to present to members showing how their money has been spent. These accounts are usually available to members to approve at an AGM. This has nothing to do with HMRC requirements. Mutual trading organisations can be expected to make Returns to HMRC in certain circumstances, see this link HM Revenue & Customs: Unincorporated organisations and Corporation Tax Amicus CC89 reps get £60 per day less tax and NI which can mean taxation at 40% for most. This goes back to the formation of CC89 when a deal was struck with HM Revenue at their request (HMRC). The TGWU has avoided such arrangements for years despite attempts by HMRC to tax these sums that is why I say I believe the investigation is 'ongoing'. It is absolutely correct that accounts must be kept and should be available for inspection by any member at the monthly branch meeting that is in the Unite rule book and BASSA branch consitution - but it just NEVER happens. |
Well join BASSA and go and ask.
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Originally Posted by Litebulbs
(Post 6045385)
Well join BASSA and go and ask.
Thanks but no thanks! If people who do have their money taken from their salary each month and are completely unaware of what happens to it then good luck to them. I'll keep mine safely away.:hmm: |
Well as treasurer of my club I pay 'out of pocket' expenses - they give me a receipt and I repay them what they have expended (out of their own pocket) on the club's behalf.
That is not the same as a flat rate amount. A flat amount, especially if it is to recompense for reduced income while you are rostered off duty, would be taxable, somewhere, and I can't see why HMRC haven't enforced this with BASSA reps, or any ex T&GW members, if they have already done so with CC89/Amicus. It wouldn't take years. A 'back years' investigation may take time, but not enforcing correct compliance from a given date. Maybe they have, but you are not privy to any evidence to that effect. And if you are not a member of that union, you should not be privy to that evidence. All you can do is persuade someone who is to find out. Or what Litebulbs said. |
Litebulbs
Oh to be the brave and reckless at Bedfont. I would see it as a personal responsibility to open my mouth, if I did not believe or trust my leaders. I am sure I could muster up more than a few friends to protect me from a cabin crew mob. 1. You would feel the need for protection if you were to open your mouth. 2. You have absolutely no idea of the state of BASSA's accounts. Both of which are deplorable, more so for a 'rep.' |
Rex,
A lovely bit of spin. Why should I have any idea of BASSA accounts? I doubt very much if I would need any protection. Neither deplorable. |
Well join BASSA and go and ask.
Thanks LB - but I'm just a chicken livered coward of impeccable breeding.
However, the image that comes to mind immediately following the question, must equal 'the King has no clothes on', before the world descends upon the luckless questioner. A large part of the conumdrum here would appear to revolve around the statement that BASSA is not a union, but just a branch of Unite. The problem with this, is that BASSA seem to have sucessfully changed their own rules and regulations, such that they seem to have almost complete autonomy in the way in which they operate. Mind you that could just be a sweeping generalisation!! ;) |
From this post on the CC thread, it seems that DH does not intend on going anywhere soon:
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/429...ml#post6044063 Wow xxxxxx what a really unpleasant post. So unpleasant in fact I was tempted not to respond but because of my professional duty I will try to explain - Firstly I am not saying mistakes have not been made along this very long road, that would have been an impossible task to deliver. No one - even you - can surely claim to be 100% perfect. But since we released news of Columbus I think our successes have outweighed our minuses. My conscience is very clean on that score. But for many reasons (some of them impossible to be 100% public about) I believe this recent decision taken to be another plus in the overall bigger picture. Read on As I have said many times this dispute is just not about BASSA v BA. We have to factor in a third very important party and that is Unite - and that is a political minefield that has to be "played" "nurtured" and "manipulated". No, that is not an ideal situation - I would much rather we were the master of our own destiny (and maybe we will be one day) - but for the duration of this dispute, at least, we have to make do with what we have got. Quite a few reps wanted to reject the deal, myself and Lizanne included, but weighing up the practicalities and the fact Woodley would have been reluctant to give us an IA ballot without taking the deal to the membership, we all agreed after a long debate and vote to remain neutral to enable a consultative process to take place - in contrast to 2007. Walsh would not have that. We could have then told him where to stick it, but - and this is crucial - in the end the importance of letting YOU tell him where to stick it (if that was what you wanted) swayed the argument and we very reluctantly let the ballot progress with a red ringed "recommendation". We were confident the membership would see why we were doing what we were. We would get to where we want to be albeit it taking a little longer. Now to answer the nasty bit As for developing some balls - not a phrase I particulary like using but let me tell you something. I have known Lizanne for 35 years, and no stewardess has "bigger balls" - in fact no person I know is as loyal, straight-talking, unafraid and unflinching against all odds. She is plain talking, fearless and probabably the most unselfish, generous person I have ever known. Your post is incredibly insulting and totally unwarranted. You should have been around on the day the Daily Mail plastered her face all over their front page in an attempt to turn the general public against her. She caught the tube to London that day - she had a duty to represent you. That xxxxxx took balls! As for myself - well I'll just give you facts. I have participated in every strike in BA over the last 35 years and been on every picket line. I have been suspended 4 times, faced three gross misconduct charges - 2 of which I survived. Last time I was not so lucky but I knew what was right and what was wrong and gritted my teeth. So sticking up for my union rights I got dismissed. I knew all along that was my likely fate but because I believed I was in the right and could not let BA dictate to me how and when to conduct my union responsibilties I made the stand. I sacrificed a career because, for the future branch secretaries of BASSA and the future reps - it was the right thing to do and I would do it again tomorrow. And you want me to grow some balls? You do? Well xxxxxx, the good news for you is that come Dec 2011 - 13 months time - you will be able to display how big your balls are and stand for either Chairman or Branch Secretary because I am not standing and I believe Lizanne too is stepping down. Outsiders ie non reps are quite entitled to step in and stand for the 2 leadership positions, so I will look forward to receiving nominations from those of you who think you could do a better job. Seriously xxxxxxx you seem quite a warrior so give serious consideration to putting your name forward. |
Duncan's 'take' from BASSA subs
on the other forum, there is a calculation that puts this at circa £60,000 pa in addition to his BA salary, allowances etc.
surely the Revenue cannot be ignoring that sort of additional income -assuming of course the calculation is close to the truth? this really does all come back to the membership: only they can remedy this situation. 'the price of freedom is eternal vigilance' and 'a sick society will look to sick leadership' are two phrases that come to mind. ultimately, the members must act - even if that 'act' is continuing acquiescence. |
BASSA 2011 officer nominations
"Outsiders ie non reps are quite entitled to step in and stand for the 2 leadership positions, so I will look forward to receiving nominations from those of you who think you could do a better job."
Is this an indication that the current holders, DH & Lizanne, are going to select the nominees to recommend to the members!! Does anyone know the current actual rules that would apply to these elections? |
so I will look forward to receiving nominations from those of you who think you could do a better job." |
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Notlangley
ahhh. I see you have found another nugget of journalism in the mould of Woodward and Bernstein. Interestingly, the Grauniad article fails singulary to produce any evidence. It has all the hallmarks of a conversation with a bloke in the pub. Once again we are treated to tales of shadowy groups who are alleged to have spied on BA staff. Interesting that even Unite, when asked, refrained from comment. Maybe the upper echelons of the union are in cahoots with BA management:hmm: I'm not sure what the Guardian is seeking to achieve by publishing this article. It sounds as if the paper wishes to whip up enthusiasm amongst crew for a rejection of the offer put forward. I just hope that the paper will be on hand to provide assistance to cabin crew who might be out of pocket as a consequence. It's very easy to be an armchair Trot, especially when it's not your job on the line. |
Originally Posted by Colonel White
(Post 6046302)
fails singulary to produce any evidence.
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The Guardian Article
Now I should support it and say "look at nasty BA", but it doesn't feel right at all. Imagine the first time it was challenged in court and the damage it would do.
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I apologise Colonel White and to all others._ It was bad judgement on my part to point at this particular newspaper article._ The anonymous person who gave this malevolent material to the reporter is clearly a member of BASSA or similar whose motive is to destroy with lies and bent words._ I should have had the maturity to ignore this newspaper article.
Apologies again. Notlangley |
NotLangley
No reason to apologize. Though I agree with others about the lack of facts to give more depth to the story, it is out there and knowing that BASSA is this thin re complaints is interesting in itself. And to members of the forum my apologies in advance for any particulary bad typing today. Injured my arm yesterday andtrying to do most computer work with one hand. |
PPrune
I hope that you are going to provide a counselling service for when the BA industrial dispute ends. There will be a large hole in the lives of some posters :E |
There will be a large hole in the lives of some posters This hanging-on-to-the-past can be a serious impairment._ It does make sense of the point in the letter that said that relations between Union and BA must improve._ I wonder if this means that the three year period before the restoration of privileges will be extended to five years, ten years, unless and until relations do improve. |
Joao da Silva:
A bit amusing that you make such a comment while referring to critical observations regarding Mr. Holley as "character assassination". The situation between BA and BASSA has many individuals interested, though a full life is possible while remaining informed. Many on this board can also walk and chew gum at the same time. :) |
Ah, but the difference is, Diplome, that I have not named any particular individuals, nor have I suggested that my comments apply to all here.
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From the latest Holleygram on that other thread:
It would appear Unite and BA agreed these on Friday, and Saturday lunchtime the senior BASSA reps saw the appendix containing the litigation details for the first time. |
In amongst Mr Holley’s latest ranting he does actually make an interesting point, in that those that have been dismissed don’t get to vote on an offer which would remove their ability to be represented, and funded, by Unite should they take court action over their dismissal.
I hadn’t considered that side effect and it’s an interesting situation. That aside he does seem to be pushing the bounds of the agreement when it comes to recommending the offer, if his words collapse it and the offer is pulled (which I don’t personally think BA will do) he will have then unilaterally have decided the result for all members. |
those that have been dismissed don’t get to vote on an offer he will have then unilaterally have decided the result for all members. the senior BASSA reps saw the appendix containing the litigation details for the first time |
Joao is so right
Joao is so right...............
"There will be a large hole in the lives of some posters" Those of us who have observed this dispute for the last couple of years will obviously have no life left if the dispute is ever resolved. My immediate thought was to raise a subscription fund for bassa so that it could afford to continue to fight the good fight against BA and those others of a capitalist persuasion, who were repressing the working class CSDs with their continued accumulation of previously expropriated surplus wage labour, but then I realised that all the combatants, from the bassa branch sec and his Heritage CSDs through to the monumentally incompetent BA management shower were all very much better paid than me. But maybe Joao has identified a new business opportunity for me. I should set up as a pprune counsellor, to counsel and give advice to those poor folk who become alienated from society and who suffer from anomie (Durkheim) if this dispute is ever resolved. (Thinks - I'll only charge 300 UKP/hour plus expenses. bassa and BA can afford that) However, as baggersup has reminded us - follow the money. There is not much chance of my new business taking off, as the dispute will not end while the Branch sec is raking in between 5% and 8% of about 2 million UKP of subs. Remind me when it does end. Counselling services - guaranteed outcomes, only 300 UKP /hour, and the first session at a special introductory offer of UKP 500/hour. |
Snas:
It is an interesting issue but one that would be of concern only if the vote was close enough for those few militants who have been dismissed to have had their votes capable of making a difference in the outcome. Otherwise its a moot point. Right now I don't think that Holley is thinking of what BA will do as much as he has been trying to manipulate around Unite. It is obvious that BASSA's conduct has been the subject of some discussion among the big guys and BASSA has received some rather firm instructions regarding their communications. Unfortunately for Unite, Holley just can't help himself. Its almost laughable how little restraint this man has in the face of any critical commentary. Perhaps Holley is hoping that the General Secretary election will go his way and a new, more militant Unite, will sweep in and save BASSA from this travesty of their own making. I remain surprised that the BASSA membership can read these messages of disorganization and not demand improved representation. Ancient Observer: Good luck with the counseling career. Keep office hours in a good sushi establishment and I might even spring for a session just for the fun of it. ...and I agree. There is a possibility that with Mr. Holley at the head there is simply no negotiated conclusion possible. Fascinating set of circumstances for BASSA and its members. |
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