Thanks not langley,
I don't know that jargon either, think it must be Qantas lingo. They probably would not understand ours either. Anyway thanks for the info very interesting. I think Bassa have become a bit of a cult, some crew feeling very let down by BA and trying to cling to something. Even those of us that did not strike feel very unappreciated by a company that many of us spent our working lives serving. I know there are some bad eggs but most crew are very loyal and dedicated.

Betty Girl:

Out of curiosity, why do you feel let down by BA?

I know the frustration regarding the development of Mixed Fleet exists, but from a business perspective it makes sense.

It seems to me that BA has made a relative earnest effort to provide protections for legacy Crew, they simply keep being told "No".

Diplome,
I think the strikers feel very let down mostly because they feel an injustice has been done to them in their staff travel being taken away. Now I know they were warned but working with them, you can feel the resentment they all feel and how let down by BA, by people like me that worked, particularly by other staff who worked as VCCs and most of all by pilots that worked as VCCs. They blame us all and not Bassa for the mess they have found themselves in. In their eyes it is all of us that caused their strike to fail.

The rest of us like me, that worked, do feel better about things but there is real fear in all crew that our working agreements will go in the future too. Although BA are saying they have no plans to change the way we work, we all feel like we are just numbers not people now. Mr. Walsh has managed to create a feeling among all crew that all he cares about is getting the cheapest crew possible. No longer do we feel valued as professional crew, we are now just any old crew, the cheaper the better. There has always been great pride in crew that we will go the extra mile for our customers and I think most still do but we don't feel appreciated by our employer any more. For the last year we have been publicly criticised for being paid the wage that BA agreed to pay us and humiliated in the media by our own employer and openly told that he thinks we are overpaid. So that is why even non strikers feel unappreciated and scared about the future. Unfortunately we have been led by a completely useless union that has made everything much worse.
The strange thing about all this is that the most demotivated crew on line at the moment are the Temporary crew. They have been badly treated by BA over the last 6 months and it is those crew, that are moving to Mixed fleet!!

Another interesting fact that you may not be aware of is that Iberia crew are paid a lot more that BA cabin crew, so too are their pilots. They also work to far more expensive and more restrictive agreements than BA cabin crew, who are in fact, when compared to most other Flag carriers in western Europe, the cheapest. So it is going to be interesting to see what happens when Mr. Walsh is in charge of Iberia as well as us.

Hope that explains what I meant.

If this is in fact true why have Cabin Crew, both CC89 and BASSA, consistently refused to a "Benchmarking Exercise" that the pilots went through a decade ago. Surely if the statement is true, CC would have gained from such an execise?

(The exercise took into account everything from pay to allowances, to local cost of living, to taxes, to exchange rates etc.)

Fred

Betty Girl, do you have a source for this statement?

The strikers feel let down!!!! What about the rest of us that took pay cuts and increased productivity only to watch a strike waste it all because crew were too precious to do the same?

Let's remember this is not a first, there was an aborted strike in 2007 over what exactly? 12 bizarre points.
That cost the company a fortune and arguably lost us all the full 10% bonus that year.

The following year BASSA threatened another ballot.

2009 saw another huge waste of money with the snow disruption, it was BASSA that refused an alleviation and once again cost the company a fortune.

I won't even go down the hot towel route again.

The rest of us feel let down by BASSA and it's devoted followers, we have had enough.

If staff travel was returned then the whole dispute would have been pointless and we will not doubt be back in dispute in a year or two.

Can people not see that this can't go on year after year?

Personally, I would like to see staff travel offered back in full in exchange for a £150million cost saving program from current crew.
Could be something like £30m per year for five years and easily be achieved through productivity changes.

That would be fair to all. Anyone prepared to work harder to get their collegue's concessions back?

Look, please don't take snippets of what I said and then have a go.

I was just explaining HOW strikers seem to FEEL and also how unappreciated other crew feel as well. The views of the strikers are NOT mine just feelings I get from them on line, so please don't attack my post.

Don't have a go as tho they were my feelings or that I am saying what they did was right because anyone who knows me, knows I was against the strike.

BA don't negotiate about BA cabin crew salaries and compared them to other European Airlines although the union have always tried, the airlines they have used to compare us to, in more recent times, are Easyjet, Ryanair and Virgin.

Believe me or don't about the salaries of people like Air France and Iberia it matters not to me.

It wasn't a go at you, that's why I left the author out of the quote.

It's a go at the fact that strikers feel let down just because they didn't get their way for the first time in their life.

They didn't have to go on strike. It is a dispute and there are many ways to progress a dispute. The THREAT of a strike is a powerful weapon, if you just jump straight in an actually strike you had better be damn sure you have the support and a good chance of having the desired effect.
(The Christmas strike was short notice and ruthless, there were no VCC's. It had the best chance of sucess, shame Ms Malone blew it)

After that it was clear to everyone that support was limited and loss of staff travel would result. They also knew then about the third party airlines that were covering and the army of VCC's.
A responsible union would have stopped and reassesed the situation.

To feel let down afterwards is.... well words fail me.

Betty Girl said:

It's not a question of believing you Betty Girl, otherwise I'd accuse you of making it up. I simply asked where you got this information.

Well I don't have a source for the salaries but my french chiropractor's sister works for Air France and their hours are very restrictive compared to ours and her pay is also more than mine (for a lot less less hours).

Just ask any pilot and he will confirm that Iberia pilots earn more than them and it is a well known fact that it is the same for cabin crew.

Just take a look at how much Spanish air traffic controllers earn ( it was recently in the papers) and you will see, just how large the wages are of ex state owned companies in Spain.

Please just remember I did not strike and I don't agree with how our union handled this and I do think further savings could have been negotiated for crew. Having said, that I feel the professionalism and dedication will be lost in time on new Mixed fleet because high calibre candidates wont want to work for these low wages or stay long and also be able to live in the London area, unless living at home with Mum and Dad.

Iberia I think is public knowledge, but you have one reference for an Air France CC member which is not really representative, is it?

I mean be fair, BG, that hardly correlates to

does it?

Bit of an exaggeration, won't you agree?

BG....Don't worry. There are a lot of people on here who won't be satisfied until you are on minimum wage...It's just a mind set...;):}

I think what Iberia Cabin Crew make is pretty irrelevant to the argument. The fact is that there will always be individuals making more than others. It does not mean either are undercompensated or that the higher level should be the appropriate benchmark with regards to the success of a business.

As for the Mixed Fleet crews performance, they will have an opportunity to prove themselves. None of us, including legacy Crew, know definitively what their compensation will be because of that elephant in the room issue referred to by another forum member...performance pay.

The repeated tone of many present Cabin Crew which seems to belittle them before they have been given a chance to prove exactly what is going to make them "special" gives proof to the wise decision of BA to insulate them from the attitude of Legacy Crew. The vast majority of BA patrons I speak to are enthused and will judge them only on their service level.

Of course BASSA members that went on strike are going to be feeling "let down". They lost. I truly do believe that BASSA did not prepare its members properly regarding the realities and risks involved in IA. It was a treated as more of a "We'll show them..let's party" event rather than the serious and dangerous process it can be. That being said, we are speaking of adults here, they had the ability to explore the situation fully, and made their decision. To demand that there be no consequences for their actions is a continuation of their rather immature attitude.

You may be worried about your future terms and conditions but I would state that there is hardly an individual in the U.K. right now that isn't in the same position. BA has gone out of its way to try to preserve those..but the fact of the matter is that the majority of Cabin Crew members choose to be represented by BASSA and BA must deal with BASSA. BA, in my opinion, has gone out of their way to save Legacy Crew in spite of themselves, BASSA simply makes that a very difficult task.

Betty Girl has a point when she says it's not just the strikers that feel unappreciated. It's difficult to explain and I can't talk salary as I am not LHR based so don't know what the salaries are up there. But there is no human touch at BA. I know it's a huge company and I know that they are in business to make money for the shareholders but everything is very rigid, not just on BASSA's side of things.

The best way I can explain is from my past and current experiences. In my last company, also a very large airline, we all pitched in when things went wrong. Within legal limits, we'd help out doing the flights that were outside of our agreements to get people home and planes to where they needed to be. But we also knew that when we needed help, the company would do their best, whether it be altering our rosters or offering other possible solutions. If they couldn't help, we knew it was because there was nothing they could do, not because they didn't try. It was a two way street and benefited both parties!

But it's not like that at BA. It's not just BASSA that are rigid when it comes to agreements. We are expected to help out in times of disruption and I always did. I brought my previous experiences with me. Over the years, during the start up of Single Fleet at LGW/snow problems/strikes/volcanic ash etc I agreed to work random rosters, fill in where needed, work outside of my agreements. For years, I've "helped out". But when I needed help with a huge upheaval recently, I was refused because I couldn't provide written proof of why I needed the help within the BA deadline. "Rules is rules", I was told. And when I attempted to very politely query that with Mr Francis, I was given extremely short shrift. I now find myself very reluctant to help out in times of trouble. I come in, do the job to the best of my ability and go home. No more, no less. As the man in scheduling said, rules is rules!

As someone who has come into BA from another airline, I find myself wondering if British Airways themselves have bred the culture of complete inflexibility that now exists. I suppose it's a case of what came first. Inflexibility from the crew or inflexibility from the company? The chicken or the egg?

Miss M has emerged from the long grass to suggest she is confident that ST will be restored for commuters (just commuters?) by the courts. Quite which court and when is not clear. However didn't I read that WW agreed to restore ST for commuters as part of the last deal? Perhaps I am mistaken, but I understood that deal was turned away by the union.

@ Betty Girl
You really shouldn't speak for everyone, when everyone includes the loonies who asked for two days off concerning the diversion to Prestwick/Glasgow and the transfer of passengers to another flight ( if exact details incorrect, please excuse, ) a year or two ago as just one example.

Honestly, be realistic. How else is it going to be in a company of 40,000 people, anywhere ? You really need to sit down and think about the reality of a company the size you work for.

Some average hourly cost numbers being discussed here regarding cabin crew costs pertinent to BA were made available by the High Court last February.

BA LHR Worldwide: £60
Eurofleet: £58

By way of comparison:

Longhaul
Emirates: £27
Virgin: £20-27
BA Gatwick: £37

Shorthaul
BMI: £33
Easy Jet: £20
BA Gatwick: £37

Cheerz.

p.s. These numbers and just about anything else you want to know about UK airline personnel costs and general operations are available through the CAA. I use them all the time when preparing consultancy proposals. Their information is invaluable.

baggersup:

Thank you for that reference.

You are welcome, Diplome. (Though come November with MF in the mix, no pun intended, these number will change and be lower.)

If I may interject, from a management point of view, a tidbit about the a management's reaction to "rules is rules."

When a company knows it is dealing with an especially litigious minded workforce or militant union (or any workforce in which rules must be applied consistently and within legal limits like requiring written proof, etc.), any manager knows that the minute you break your own rules and guidelines, no matter how valid the reason, you are left open to problems.

Managers all have to struggle with these difficult decisions, denying worthy people of something you know they need but you cannot allow due to the company's policies.

This is what managers open themselves up to, if they break their own personnel guidelines and rules: The next person who comes along and needs an exception may not receive it. If they are a different gender or race from the previous recipient of the broken rule, then they can take you to the cleaners in court on charges that you are treating someone of a different race or gender differently.

This is what "modern" business is like, lamentable but it's reality.

Factor in BA dealing with a union that is the poster child for collective personality disorder, and they are going to toe the line probably even more so when it comes to trying to follow their own policies.

It's the sad reality of business today. Speaking from experience as someone who remembers the "good old days" when companies and personnel staff had leeway in exercising their own judgment on the ground when helping employees through tough experiences.

Having worked for BA for over 22 years, often long hours, unsociable hours and often away from my family, not to mention working at Christmas and other family occasions that others take for granted, I can assure you it can be a lonely and strange existence at times. It is obviously going to be very hard for any of you to understand the job or how any of us feel but I can tell you that a feeling of pride in your employer makes for a happy work force. Up until recently I have always had great pride and been proud to say I worked for BA but now I don't tell people I work for BA. All the pride I once had has been sucked out of me.

A very good example of a premium company that pays it's staff well and looks after them is John Lewis and as such their customer service is second to none. This is how BA has until recently been. Now of course JL has hundreds of people wanting to work for it and could easily just pay minimum wages but would it be the same company I wonder.

Just trust me when I tell you that no one likes Willie Walsh and he does not inspire any of his workforce to be the best. We are products of a previous chief executive Colin Marshall who inspired us all to be the best and it is his legacy of customer service that runs through many of us. This is all being eroded by Willie Walsh and it is a shame that we can't have the cost savings combined with an inspirational boss instead of someone that does not really care what his crew are like, as long as they are the cheapest!!

Now I expect many of you will disagree but that's life. Only time will tell.