What to do with BA miles as I wont fly with them again!
 

I was wondering what I can do with a not unsubstantial quantity of air miles I have accumulated with BA that I do not want.

I had intended to make some lovely holidays with them but have been treated so badly by BA recently that I will never step foot on one of their aircraft or part with another penny of my money again for their coffers.

Any suggestions?

Log on to your Executive Club "home page" and click on "spending BA Miles" for ideas.
P.S. I'm intrigued as to why you won't fly BA again. Please tell us!

It seems they are only useful to use for flights, I have always used them for F upgrades in the past, but anything that gives BA any revenue in the future frankly churns my stomach!

It is nothing too substantial, they have done things to irritate me over the years but recently I asked them to change a date on a flight because of a very valid reason and they refused to do it saying I would have to purchase another ticket and forego this one, bearing in mind it was a Sydney Club fare so not a cheap ticket ( second one this month too!).

Although I appreciate a non changeable fare is just that and they are within their rights, I feel that after spending in excess of 60K with them on fares in the past 3 years a little flexibility when ones Father has been given days to live was not too much to ask for! Apparently it is.. No more money for BA from me.


Nice seat number btw

I believe you can donate them to charity. Try this Donate Airmiles - LoveToKnow Charity or similar.

I feel the same about BA after they treated us with total contempt some years ago and compounded the situation by lying about what had actually happened when the dispute was escalated. I also had a lot of IB miles, and that's another airline I hope never to set foot on again. I was able to use my IB miles to send my mother in law on holiday!

Profot.
Easy this one: spend them on flights/upgrades on other one world airlines. If you are frequently going to Australia you can redeem on Qantas.

or transfer them to me so I can book my honeymoon next month :E

Try ebay, I think you will find that there is a market for them there.

I've just spent some BA miles on AA getting to and around the US.

Additionally miles in general usually go a lot further once inside the US as there is no silly tax to pay!

Smala01

Ah! So you believe because you bought some other tickets, you don't feel the ticket change regulations should apply to you? I see! It's OK it applies to everybody else, but not you, and that is your definition of being 'treated so badly'?

As an outsider, one thinks maybe BA is better off not having such a customer! Try that little one elsewhere and see how far you get!

Well, I bought the cheapest tickets I could get on Emirates, thought they were non-changeable, non-refundable etc. Fell ill in Oz and was medically unfit to fly back, rang Emirates, one free change of date (for both of us) and I was advised to keep the booking open until I was certain I could fly back as there was a (relatively small) charge if I wanted to change it again.

Don't see why other airlines don't do the same.

UFO

Clearly BA thinks so too - but it is commercially nonsensical (assuming Profot is giving us a fair account of the situation). Tossing away a big-paying J-class passenger, especially in the current business travel climate, is sheer unbridled lunacy. As has been noted, other airlines allow changes for genuine compassionate reasons - there may be hoops to jumps through (medical certificates, etc), but they do it - and even for ordinary Y class passengers.

Profot will be snapped up by CX (you can use your points on them, much better than QF in my experience), SQ, EK and others plying the Kangaroo Route. BA can ponder their empty Club World cabins, plummeting revenue, and wonder why.

And this is only one of several recent threads about BA customer relations decisions that defy any rational commercial explanation. What is going on?

I think you have to be pragmatic here and not do anything that might appear to be cutting your nose off to spite your face. If you refused to fly on an airline because they treated you with contempt then you would be going everywhere by train. You have paid for those miles and not 'spending' them on BA services instead of using hard cash is exactly what BA want you to do.

We are not great fans of BA at all, but we have >500k miles in our household account, and they are worth money. So we have started using them for late bookings within Europe. Even with their deceptive fuel surcharge they are now almost competitive with the Locos on last minute flights.

You can also put them in a household account so family members can use them if you don't want to. Or just use them to buy tickets for other people.

I certainly wouldn't throw them away.

Rainboe

I did mention that I understand they were well within their rights, I just thought that perhaps a good customer who has exceptional circumstances in the form of a dying father might show a little leeway on one occasion.

Perhaps I am wrong.

profot,

I am in no way doubting you when you say that your father was extremely ill, but the number of times that airlines are told such things has to be heard to be believed.

Take the situation that I had a while back, when the aircraft went tech. Another one of our A/C was due to leave for LHR in the 40 minutes or so and it had approximately 30 spare seats. One of the ground staff was heard to mention this by a passenger at the front, while we were trying to get as many passengers sorted as we could. It spread through the aircraft like wildfire and suddenly, it seemed that virtually every passenger onboard was going to a funeral/wedding/sick relative etc. I find it hard to believe that all those people were in fact, telling the truth.

In thread recently, someone mentioned that we should show more leeway, initiative and common sense. I personally, would love to, but experience has shown me that all three have a habit of coming back and biting you in the rear. Give an inch and many will insist on taking a mile.

I know this doesn't help you now, but hopefully, it may go some way to you understanding why such a stance may have been taken. It seems that you may have paid for the past behaviour of many selfish people. Fair? No. But then again, life never was fair.

UniFoxOs,

If you had been declared medically unfit to fly, along with all the relevant documentation, then that is a completely different scenario and I would have thought that most airlines would not charge to change the date of travel under those circumstances. No doubt, I will now be deluged by posts from all those that can't wait to prove me wrong! :rolleyes:

Jetsetlady,

The sensible thing to do, before saying 'No', is to look at the customer's profile. Has he/she flown a lot? Have they spent lots of dosh on Business/First recently? If you see a 'Yes', the start kicking in flexibility, even if it means bending the rules. Especially in today's climate, where you REALLY don't want to lose Business or First Class PAX to other airlines just because you followed the rules.

I had the situation last year where the last flight from Nice was cancelled. (and I'm on a 'No changes' 'D' class ticket). BA found me a hotel room, but on getting to the gate for the next morning's flight, my Club Europe aisle seat had turned into a Euro Traveller window seat - and there was no room in Club Europe all of a sudden. In spite of 5 years of holding a Gold Card. We did a deal where I took the next flight in Club Europe in 1D (which I was originally in) and BA paid for all the 'phone calls. And I got £50. But if I'd had an onwards flight to catch, it would have been my last flight on BA. Plus a compensation claim.

So flexibility is even more important today, As they say on American ' We know you have a choice when it comes to air travel'. P*ss off the customers and they (and the airline) will be gone tomorrow - like PanAm and Empire Airlines and BCal......(which last I don't miss at all!)

radeng,

And maybe flexibility would be more likely if people didn't take the proverbial quite so regularly! Take buggies on board as a pefect example. Technically, they are supposed to be in the hold. We don't often have room for them on shorthaul aircraft, but in the past, if we had a light load, I'd try to be helpful by accepting them on whilst reiterating that it was only because the aircraft was half empty. Most of my colleagues would do the same. Then it slowly dawned on me that I was spending more and more time arguing with parents who were still determined to bring their ridiculously oversized buggies onboard, despite it being obvious that the aircraft was full to overflowing. And their reasoning was always, "Well they let us on our last flight!" It seems I wasn't the only one, so guess what. Now we have a blanket ban. As usual, the idiots have ruined it for all.

Do you get what I'm trying to say here? Yes, profot was in an awful situation. One that I wouldn't wish upon anyone. And yes, he was obviously someone who had spent a lot of money with us. And yes, in an ideal world, his past history would have been looked at and the appropriate decision made. But repeated abuse of the system means that the ability to be flexible has now been taken from us.

As for your situation, I can't see what else BA could have done. They put you up in a hotel and, when there was no Club seat available for you on the flight out, probably because they were now trying to accomodate two passenger loads on one aircraft, they offered you either direct travel out in Euro Traveller or a Club seat on the next available flight. If you had have been connecting and needed to take the first flight, you would have been compensated for the fact that you had not got the Club seat you had paid for, as you would have been if your connection had been on the day of the original flight. That is standard. What more would you have expected them to do? Yes, the original flight was cancelled which was a pain for all involved, but I'm sorry, things go wrong in aviation, just as they do any other form of transport. We're not miracle workers and there's only so much we can do!

Jetset Lady, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be and I know customers continually take the p**s and want everything for nothing but in this case they were not even remotely interested.

I am not sure of the exact words but it went along the lines of is he actually dead yet? No? then in that case we cant help you you will have to purchase another ticket but try to look at it that you only paid GBP3k for this one so if you buy another one it will only seem like paying a little over a fully flexible fare!

I could have very easily emailed or posted them a copy of the surgeons prognosis for my Father and actually rather than trying to get a refund I thought the cheapest option for BA would be to give me a different date later in the year allowing them to re sell my ticket, I did this out of concern for them losing revenue in these tough times.

I know that everyone is at a scam, and i know that if I wanted to be able to change my ticket at will then I should have bought the fully flexible fare but these were exceptional circumstances and I just thought perhaps a little customer loyalty would have meant something, I do not expect anything above anyone else as Rainboe so abruptly suggested, I would like to think BA would have helped anyone else out too!

Anyway, I didn't really come on here to slag BA off, I was just trying to find a way to get rid of my miles.

Thanks for your input

profot,

You have me there. I admit to being BA crew and being the loyal type, I will try to defend the company wherever I feel it's justified, but the above is pretty hard to defend. Those questions were insensitive in the extreme and I can only say I'm sorry. Too late, I know. :(

Jetset Lady, you raise some good points and your tales of woe I think well illustrate the pitfalls involved in exercising discretion that may have led the industry to steadily withdraw discretionary authority (the story of the passengers who all suddenly remembered they were travelling to weddings, funerals and dying relatives really made me chuckle - I can just picture the scene...).

But it's important to remember that "discretion" here means (or should mean) discretion to make an on-the-spot decision in the best interests of the airline - which will not always be the same as the best interests of an individual customer. In other words, if some customers must be made unhappy, you should have the discretion to choose the ones whose unhappiness will cost the airline the least. This is a different calculation to deciding who will be most unhappy, or trying to judge the respective merits of competing sob stories.

And this is why profot's story, and the similar tales in other threads, puzzle me. They just make no sense, even when judged from the most hard-nosed mercenary perspective.

Let's take a closer look at this, going right back to basics. The purpose of an airline is to make a profit. The purpose of an airline's terms and conditions is to help it make a profit. They have no other purpose. If a situation should arise where rigid adherence to the terms and conditions will cost an airline more than making an exception to them, what is the point of not making the exception? Adhering to the terms and conditions is not an end in itself.

Now, looking at profot's case, we have:

1. A regular business-class passenger, who has racked up GBP 60,000 worth of travel in the past few months, who regularly travels on a long-haul route that is also served by many other airlines, several of which offer levels of comfort and service equal to or better than BA, at similar prices.

2. A request from this passenger essentially for a favour: to change a non-changeable ticket, valued at about GBP 3000. He has no history of asking for similar things, or otherwise being difficult or demanding.

Putting aside the reason for asking for the favour, and the associated compassionate considerations, here is the calculation:

1. If BA sticks to its guns and insists that the passenger buy another ticket, what are the chances that he will buy it from BA? Answer: zero. So no extra sale.

2. BA keeps the original GBP 3000, and has a chance (but no guarantee) of re-selling the seat. Possible gain here: between 0 and, say, GBP 6000.

3. Original passenger is annoyed and disappointed, and makes the not-very-painful decision to fly CX, SQ, EK, EY, etc, in future. Based on his past travel pattern, BA can expect to lose something in the vicinity of GBP 30000 per year.

Do the sums! Does it make the slightest sense? What do BA staff who are being asked to work for free or take unpaid leave think of business decisions like this?

"The answer is no, now what's the question?"
That is the disease running through so called UK customer services.

Get out of the UK and see how others deal with PR problems. It doesn't always work but at least someone will use initiative and try to find a way.

No-one cares in England anymore. It is a terrible state of affairs and just adds to the woes of the state of the country's finances and makes it the most frustrating place to live in the world! 'Glad I no longer do.

Continental at Houston. Biz class. Missed flight due to 5 hour i/b delay (on BA as it happens). Not a through ticket. Non Flex. Changed Wife and I tickets no problem.

Virgin. Missed flight Narita to LHR. Upper class. Non Flex ticket. My fault , got the wrong train. Put me on the next flight out no charge.

Virgin 2 non flex uclass tickets to Vegas to watch the boxing. Fight put back 2 weeks. I asked - no problem -we went 2 weeks later.

Air Canada. Exec First. Missed connector LHR to Toronto. Again not a through ticket, not flex. Again next flight no problem.

So the answer is, try it and in my experience you always get there (except on BA in this case).

Absolutely agree with "manintheback".

Personally done the same recently and often on several other airlines.

BA, or "Bad Attitude" as I like to call them seem to have the knack of indifference and customer contempt down to a fine art. The fact that the guy's father was ill just makes it unfortunately a very sad reinforcing proof of how pervasive the attitude is.

Prediction: KLM buys them out in a fire sale and shapes it up. They simply can't exist the way they treat customers. :D

This one of the reasons why I'm glad I'm not in customer relations anymore. A few years ago, I dealt with a lady who had booked two seats to SYD with miles a year in advance (the only way you can with miles) but during that year, she was diagnosed with cancer. Her doctor advised not to travel until after her treatment, which is understandable.

When she went to cancel her tickets, she was told that she would lose the miles. She wrote letters, supplied evidence but was told no refunds on miles, end of.

Her case sat in the BA system for 6 months until it was escalated to Willie Walsh - ie: Me. It took all of 30 seconds to re-credit her miles. I then wrote to her apologising for the treatment she had received - not one person expressed any concern for her health - wished her well with the treatment and sent her flowers.

It's a pity profot has to be the victim of a short sighted policy that doesn't account for the circumstances of its valued customers.

Jetsetlady,

In my case, my Club Class seat turned into a Economy seat between checking in and boarding. So they must have known at check in what the loading was likely to be.

I haven't had any other real problems with BA, I'm glad to say, although it does seem silly now that we have a policy of 2 + 2 seating in Club Europe to not have the wider seats on the A-C side of the aircraft as we used to do when it was 2+3. I know the 3 seat side isn't flexible, but the 2 seat side stil is....

I do find BA cabin crew and T5 and PHX check-in people the best of all the airlines I've flown, although the suggestion that one flies too much gets worrying when you walk into the lounge and they greet you by name before looking at your ticket! I do have grave doubts about the management that sets inflexible policies, though. So, I am led to understand, do many BA staff.....

Barstow, I had to grin at the idea of KLM (or Air France as we must now call them) teaching BA staff their customer service techniques. Repeat after me: "issh not possshible ..."
[With apologies in advance to my several Dutch friends and colleagues.]

radeng,

You know what? I'm giving up. I always try to defend BA, I really do. After all, I work for them and I'm nothing, if not loyal. And we do have a lot of very good staff. Time after time, someone will post, regarding a problem they've had. I'll be there, with my BA hat on, trying to come up with a reason as to why things have been done the way they have and then the person will add a little more to their story. Slowly, bit by bit, it'll dawn on me. The issue has got as far as, either, our bl**dy useless Customer Relations department or our reservations department and that's where it'll stay for the next decade or two....again!

I've spoken to many Pprune members behind the scenes, to see if I can help in anyway. I've been to Waterside, I've sent emails, I phoned the entire company directory. And what happens? Precisely nothing!

But you know the really stupid thing? I can't seem to stop! I keep on gathering up my examples and emailing them to whoever I can think of. They keep patting me on the head and telling me that they're grateful to me for bringing it to their attention and that'll they'll get onto it immediately. And I, in my seemingly everlasting naiviety, will trot off thinking I may, at last, have made a difference for at least one of our passengers. God, I must be really dense! :{

So for all those that have suffered at the hands of our CR dept, I'm sorry! I've tried. Many of us have tried and, more fool us, we'll probably carry on trying. They may not care, but we do!

As for the "fantastic" new CE seating arrangement, don't even get me started! :ugh:

A very tired and disillusioned JSL :(

P.S. Why do I get the feeling that I'm really going to regret posting this after a hard day and early start.....

Hmm, this thread's converging with the parallel FlyBE discussion, which also has its share of "customers" miffed at an airline's refusal to waive contractual provisions.

Somebody please enlighten me: Why would anybody buy a flexible ticket, if similar flexibility can be bargained into cheaper fares on production of a good story? I'm all ears - this could save my employer millions.

Im not sure sure I was looking for the same flexibility as a full flex fare, I was asking BA for a little leeway for an exceptional circumstance which frankly was not a 'good story' but in fact the death of my dear father rather than I fancied flying on a wednesday instead of a thursday.. quite a difference in my book

Profot, my condolences to you, with apologies for my insensitivity.

Sadly, not everybody is quite so honest when requesting changes from their airline. Without checks and balances, the case for flexible tickets is much diminished. My question, therefore, remains.

No problem at all, I know only too well what customers are like being in a service industry myself.

I think it is time to end this thread as it has become somewhat pointless. I had no intention of beating up BA or moaning about how hard done by i am, rather I was looking for some good ideas to spend my rather large quantities of air miles but I have successfully worked that out now as well

Legally BA was correct, morally wrong. That's why this organisation is in the mess that it is, needs a thorough clear out of dead wood, of which there is lots. I doubt they will ever be a propper airline again, would be a shame if GB lost a national carrier but that's the way it's going, fast.

Jetsetlady, I don't think it's fair to say that customer relations don't care (at least at Waterside) it's just like Radeng mentioned, many BA staff DO care but are bound by restrictive policies.

I can relate to what you say about helping out - I've been PM'd many times on here - to the point where you are genuinely saddened and frustrated by not being able to get anywhere.

A tip for those who are having troubles with BA customer relations - write to Willie Walsh directly. The letter goes to a specialised team. It may take longer to get a response but you should get a quicker resolution once your letter has been picked up.

Another tip is if you have had problems and a crew member, or ground staff member has tried to help but to no avail (ie wanted to but couldn't for the reasons above) it would help when you write in to name the person. A copy is sent to that person's manager which means another set of eyes is looking at your complaint letter. It may not help you in this instance but helps with the bigger picture.

JSL,

Maybe if they cleared out management (Ha!) from Waterside and promoted some check in staff and CC and even flying crew from the sharp end to run things, it would shake up the operation and be back to what those at the sharp end really want to see.

I wonder if they've started the 'empowerment' idea for staff, which usually gives responsibility without any power at all?

Of course, often in Europe, the 'sharp end' people aren't very good, and that's because although they have BA uniforms, they are Servisair or whoever, and BA is juts one of the airlines they deal with. Sad, because it gives the wrong impression when they're clueless or awkward - people who don't know think they are dealing with BA staff.

Still, I expect to be flying BA enough to renew the Gold card again next year - for year seven.

I hope it doesn't sound trite, or sarcastic, but it's actually quite nice to see there's at least 2 BA employees who are restoring my faith in BA's humanity - kudos to you! I didn't think that it was possible for 100% of an airline to be brainwashed into machine mentality...

Pax Vobiscum, I wholeheartedly agree - the tradition of Germanic service has always been a reputation based on tolerance-bordering-on-contempt, but has been rapidly changing over the last 10 years. I see the shape-up concept of a takeover solely based on a customer responsive group, which for survival AF/KLM has to be, and which BA never has been, nor required to be due to their "glass monopoly".

Crepello, a small amount of flexibility costs an airline in the big picture nothing. To lose a regular pax for saving the office work of verifying his "good story" (one phone call to his doctor with family's permission to disclose) and changing his booking vs. losing a customer is just bad business. Airlines run badly don't survive, especially in a competitive, and low margin environment. Simple as that, and at least 2 employees here understand their jobs rely on that fact.

radeng, It is immaterial if the personnel are Servisair under contract from BA. If BA aren't aware their contractors aren't performing to an acceptable standard, then they aren't getting value for their money (whatever it is).

You have never obviously run a business as a going concern.

We can observe in this example a high fare paying pax being peeved because the airline has followed the contract to the letter and now thinking they dont want to deal with the airline.

If you look at it from the other side, a business is run to make a profit - the contract is entered into on the basis of moneys paid for service offered. If you want to deviate from that contract you can either expect it to be cancelled and a new contract put in place or for penalties to be applied.

Business is business - life is life, if a member of your family is mortally ill it is a tough situation but should you really be expecting a business to finance your repatriation ?

No matter how you look at it a business there to provide a service for a profit to its shareholders.

We seem to forget that compassion of people within a business may gain some leeway, this is an exception to a rule not an obligation.

If you expect compassion on rebooking a flight then make sure that is written into the rules when booking the ticket. If you accept a contract on the terms given dont be so upset when entity you have the contract upholds the contract.

Not being funny but if the situations were reversed would you be happy if your flight was brought it forward a day because of personal issues with the flight crew ?

Flexibility in any contract is there when it suits both parties - if you want flexibilty for a flight then pay for it - whilst everyone within reason has compassion you cannot expect everyone else to underwrite your needs in exceptional circumstances regardless of what you have done previously.

I aplogise if I have offended but life is hard, business is hard and no business will succeed by writing off costs from being nice.

Jofm5

Business is hard. There are times when it's worth while taking a small loss to avoid a much bigger one from losing the repeat business. Sometimes, the loss is even bigger because there's no repeat business from that customer and he persuades others not to deal with you.

Jofm5 sums it up nicely. Sorry guys, but the bottom line is this: You can run a competitive, low margin, mass market business. Or you can pitch for service, catering to each customer's whim at a price that reflects the costs incurred. But you can't do full service at low price - not profitably, not sustainably.

Had my regular airline demonstrated such leniency, I could have saved over $10,000 from flexible fares - just this year, just for one pax. That scales up to a lot more than 'nothing' in the big picture.

Many service providers (utilities, banks, telecomms) ditch hundreds of 'nuisance' customers annually, precisely because they've become liabilities - the cost of their requests exceeds the profits they generate. It's nice to imagine an airline that's staffed to investigate every request, calling doctors, corroborating with family members, ensuring legal compliance and preparing all the documentation - but who would pay for this capability? Many airlines can barely afford even their current payrolls.

Three groups seem to be emerging from this discussion, namely (nay provocatively):

• True 'high roller' customers that airlines must - and do - bend over backwards to accommodate and delight.
• Regular travellers, who the airline may further assist out of goodwill, but who shouldn't take this as granted.
• Occasional customers, whose marginal value provides incremental gains but whom, come next year's holiday, will continue to favour the cheapest provider.

Maybe some on this thread aspire to the first group, but are piqued to be stuck a little lower down the table! :E

Crepello and Jofm5:

You may be right in general, but in this case - as I pointed out at length in my post #19 - the decision made no commercial sense. Clearly you can't regularly grant such requests, otherwise (as you rightly argue) nobody would ever buy a flexible ticket. But this was a first request from a regular business-class traveller (let's put him in your second category, Crepello) who has many alternative service providers.

It simply isn't worth saying no. And that is a purely commercial calculation, quite apart from the humanity and common decency angle. As Jofm5 said:

This was such a case: BA just failed to recognise their own commercial interest. And consquently they've lost revenue to the competition.

Of course companies can show "compassion" (whatever that is), but only if the directors decide to. The amount of "Compassion" is shown by the policies the directors dictate and the managers implement. The minions do what they are told.

And thats how it should be.

This is when frequent flier status should be taken into account. Some airlines have good frequent flier schemes, some don't. You need to know about this before you decide to spend serious coin with any airline. Who knows whether BA made the right commercial call on this occasion, I don't and I don't think anybody here does either.