T5 - Conformance ( a rant)
 

BA Putting the con in performance!

After at least two trips per week through LHR domestic for the 7-8 years, mainly with BA, I was so insensed with the cock up that call itself T5 that, since opening I have pretty much been able to give it a wide berth.

The first time I arrived at T5 we had to wait 25minutes for ground crew to open the gate, 20 minutes for someone to open the door before we could get off a flight that had already been delayed for an hour on the ground before departure.

My outbound experience was no better. As usual,end of day late inbound A/C resulted in a lengthy wait etc.

Having allowed the obligatory 12 months to elapse to let the Blindingly Arrogant team iron out initial teething I decided to have another go . OH NO!

For a 1930 departure I arrived at T5 at just before 1900hrs and was at Security at 1857. But then.... NONE shall pass... you have failed CONformance. What I didn't spot nor remember was this ludicrous requirement to clear secuirty 35 mins before departure!

No matter said the nice lady at Security go around the the corner and the folk from BA ( as they are not the same) will re-issue your boarding card - Uh, Uh!

Now I have a few questions?

The gates close 20 mins pre departure and so 15 mins for Security ( 10 used to be a BAA target) is not unrealsitic. So this is a reasonalbe requirement - when the airport is busy. But the airport was not busy - is 35 minutes still reasonable?

At 1900hrs on Saturday night T5 was like a catherdral for the living dead. I could have skipped through Security with my meagre baggage (NONE) in 3 mins flat. As I had done that very morning at a very busy regional airport. At T5 there were more staff than pax. Why is there NO leeway.

But No, no, no. I was two minutes late. By 1857 I had already been off loaded and my seat reallocated THIS IS Irreversible - impossible for me to board due to my failing Conformance i.e. I could not POSSIBLY get through security and get to the gate prior to 1910 for the 1930 departure ( incidentaly the records show that the flight left late due to ATC! (But that's not a recognised BA delay, nor is weather, or techincal problems with the Aircraft. A BA delay is caused either by pax not turning up or ..... well I'm not sure what because when one of the crews had to be changed when they went out of hours we were told that wasn't a delay so, I guess delays are caused by pax. Hence, Conformance!)

Now, here's the interesting bit. IF, I had until 1855 to get to security it follows that I could not be offloaded until after 1855. Lets say 1855 and 1 second. Making the changes and printing the boarding card, etc. let's allow a full 59 seconds making it 1856. That's when I arrived at Departures 1856 and 14 seconds by T5's own digital timepiece. SO, me and my replacement are both making a B line to security. I have my internet printed B card and he/she has a flash new pass courtesy of some polite but essentially useless Passenger services operative. But WAIT.... we're both late! We have both failed the conformance test . Neither of us has made security by the witching hour of 1855 OMG No!

But , instead of my comfortable window seat and reheated chicken ( smells like curry, but its not) etc. ( or dry sandwich and pretzels) I get a £250 hotel bill and and a £129 ticket with another carrier - because , quite frankly - life is too short for F...ffing conformance. Great Idea but...keep it simple stupid.

I'm sorry, but T5 is a temple to stupidity. In the past 7 years I can count on the fingers of my left hand those flights that have actually left on time. OK they all say they do , but they don't or they do then you Q for hours behind everyone else and 'make up a bit of time'. Well of course they make up a bit of time when the scheduled time for the flight has gone from 1 hr 10 minutes to 1 hr 35 minutes ! But, that's not my point. My point is that I have seldom, and not in recent memory, ever delayed , caused to be delayed or experienced a delay due to the non arrival of a passenger ( and this was PRE conformance). And, where this has happened we were already going to be late for other reasons.

I just don't accept that operating a system with margins of safety layered one upon the next is necessary to achieve punctuality ( which is my biggest criticism of BA) at which they are abysmal. If you have Conformance then why do you also need to close the Gate 20 before departure? I once flew for LHR and the gate was closed 25 before the A/C had arrived.

The truth is it is another con which will catch and fleece the unwary. Either into arriving ludicrously early - not a luxury I have. Or, pay for fasttrack - now there's and cool way to waste money! Or, by having to upgrade to a flexible fare because you have been bumped for failing conformance.

No -one at BA was available for comment. Interestingly whilst I has going through this frustrating ordeal the bloke next to me was tearing into Willie Walsh on his mobile - apprarently, he even used to work for BA and was tripped up by this cunning ploy. He told me his call made no difference!

Am I cross? Well no! I have learnt some new things.

BMI are every bit as good as BA on domestic routes. They are MORE punctual, they do not operate out of T5. Their ticketing, check-in and handling staff smile a lot and and are really friendly. And, there loyaly scheme is every bit as generous as BA's. So, a big thank you to BA for giving me the motivation to try the opposition! I had a good night's sleep and was home in time to walk the dog before breakfast - bliss. Yes it cost me a lot more but hell, it was worth it!

So, if you have to do the heathrow thing. Maybe just avoid T5 - its the world's least favourite airport terminal! ( well, mine anyway)

....unless they read the great big signs posted everywhere in T5 that say you must be through conformance by 35 mins before departure.

PS You might want to have a look at at the comparative punctuality statistics for bmi and BA at LHR. You might see why bmi have axed all their "Heathrows most punctual airline" adverts.

Exactly how many of these signs are there between Heathrow express station, the lifts and the departure area that would have made any difference? I still think 35 minutes to board a flight is overly generous even at peak times and have always been able to do it quicker in the past. My point is that there is NO leeway and that if you are cutting it fine, as I was, then it's not a question of being late at the gate but of not getting through security. The arbitrary 35 minutes one size fits all is surely based on worst case and , at peak times it is sensible.

If you refer to BA standard terms and conditions and their specific information re T5B. The conditions state that pax meet the following criteria

1. Check in deadline( for first flight) at T5 this closes 45 before deprature - I was checked in and had been for 24 hours!
2.Complete check in process - i.e you have a boarding pass. I had a boarding pass.
3. Arrive at the boarding gate on time - well I would have if BA hadn't barred my progress. Access to secuirty denied!

There is NO specific reference to Security screening. This is administered not by BA staff but an external contractor. As I was running only 2 minutes behind schedule I can see no reason that I wouldn't have made the gate by the cut off. 20 before departure. Clearly, whoever was given my seat at 1856 must have made it too.
I've just had a look at the BA live flight departures which I just don't believe. Not least that a colleague has been delyed getting to Geneva this morning and she said it was because the BA flight left late - well, not if you believe BA. It's down as an on time departure. Don't trust any business that produces its own reliability stats!

All in all , I found the BMI experiece refreshing and more positive than the Bl**dy Arrogant approach. If you take out the T5 conformance requirements I am giving myself a potential 15 extra to clear secuity and get to the gate, simply by avoiding T5. The Hex journey is shorter and you don't have to ascend the labyrinth to get through secuirty only to decend into the bowels of the building to get to departure. T5 , it s like crossing the f**king alps. Its all up to check in and departures and then all down to get on the flight. I've been to some crazy airports but when you look at the amount of wasted airspace inside that building you do wonder what recreational drugs were in use when BAA and BA got together in its design. No wonder it cost what it did.

Rant over

I would commend BMI to anyone disgruntled at all with BA.

join the 21st century
 

I think anybody these days rolling into a major capital city terminal 35 minutes before they expect a planes wheels to be moving (and I'm guessing the OP is one of those who expects the wheels to be moving +/- 2 seconds of departure time and will be looking at their watch theatrically when this isn't happening) isn't really on the same planet as the other 3bn or so inhabitants of earth.

I would really try and understand the world doesn't revolve your needs and sadly air travel is now like bus travel. Sir won't get Sir's jacket taken off him by his stewardess and neatly shown to his seat where a cold aperitif awaits. I'n guess Sir was too important to get to the airport early enough due to important meetings with important people, and was too important to read down to the bottom of his email to see the fine print!

So, get on, get to the airport well early, relax, and life will be easier. Don't like it, get a job where you don't travel. And holiday in Cornwall.

G

Sorry -no sympathy from me for being too late.

The information about needing to be through security 35 mins before flight departure is shown clearly (in bold font) in the "check in options" of BA.com, as well as on the boarding pass that you printed out.

The reasson that all airlines have cut off points is so that everybody knows the score - what you seem to be suggesting is several different times, depending on circumstance...how about:

35 minutes before when its "busy" - who determins what "busy" is by the way?

30 minutes if its just a bit busy

25 minutes if its quiet

20 minutes if you havent got luggage and its busy

15 minutes if you havent got luggage and its not too busy

etc, etc

The point is that you should have read the requirements and made your flight booking/meeting times around those - especially as you were taking the Heathrow Express - so more potential for delays.

Take responsability for your own actions and stop blaming "the system" for your own late arrival

Not a banker by any chance are you?

Having a nasty suspicious mind, I always try to get to the airport a minimum of 2 hours beforehand. Doesn't always work, of course, but the aim generally allows for motorway problems. Not always - one Monday, I allowed 2-1/2 hours to get to Gatwick to arrive 2 hours early. I arrived at check in 20 minutes before departure. It so happened that my flight had been cancelled anyway!

What can be a problem at T5 is that you see the board announce 'go to gate', the gate is 10 or 11, and you're in the south lounge. By the time you get to gate, you're amongst the last to board, and on occasion, they;re even calling for you. That's less than FIVE minutes after it the 'go to gate' flashes up!

Bit of a lack of co-ordination somewhere there, I think.

Used to work at an office 5 minutes taxi ride from MAN, so usual practice when flying was to park in the company car park and get a pre-arranged cab. To cut a long story short this process failed one morning, and so my ride finally departed from work at 0630 for an 0645 departure (this was before online/kiosk check in was invented - about 15 years ago IIRC. The flight departed on time with me on it - coincidentally it was BA.

I suspect that might not happen nowadays....

Actually 35 minutes is plenty of time. Particularly on a Saturday night at 1900hrs.

I fly frequently and I my problem with T5 is that you get bumped even before you're actually late at the gate. They just assume you will be!

Incidentally in 10 years of travelling (often 2 or 3 flights per week )I have missed 2 flights due to lateness - on neither occasion did that delay the flight. ( hand baggage only)

However you look at this 35 minutes is the extra that has to be added to the journey time. Over a year that's a lot of time I would prefer NOT to spend at T5 airside. I love travelling on business - the answer is to avoid T5 and BA - easy!

The T5 conformance regime is unique in my experience. Essentially you get barred from trying to catch up when you find yourself late - irrespective of how busy security is. Look, 2 hours is find for a long haul flight but as my average flight time is usually 1-1.5 hours adding 35 minutes to the journey is sometimes 50% of flight time. Add in what I would usually allow, say 20 mins safety time pre conformance cut off that's doubling the journey time. For what?

I suspect the reason for conformance isn't really punctuality but to force pax to spend an extra 35 minutes in the shopping arcade BAA call T5. If that wasn't that case they would allow fast track pax to eneter secruity at any time. Conformance applies equally to all pax so if you fast track you simply (in theory) move airside quicker - it doesn't reduce the dead time from secuirty to gate.

I just don't see it as an equitable system for the pax.

The reason they insist on 35 minutes from Security is that many flights departs from T5B and require a one way transit link. It is far from straightforward to get a departing passenger back from the T5B without an escort. You cannot simply reboard the transit as you are then mingling with arriving passengers.

Munnyspinner I have little sympathy as the deadline was clearly marked in any booking confrimation I have ever receieved from them. Perhaps if you paid more effort to reading than ranting you would get on better. As for BMI, they go from bad to worse in my view.

You're not adding 35 minutes to your journey time. You yourself stated you arrived at T5 just before 1900 for a 1930 flight. If you normally find yourself at the airport 30 minutes before departure then getting yourself there 35 minutes before departure is no great shakes. Thats a piddling 5 minutes extra. Frankly I don't think anyone is too busy that they can't get to an airport 5 minutes earlier.

Yes, it is printed on the boarding card but,as I have been able to avoid T5 for the past 12 months the significance of the time in a box at the bottom of the sheet wasn't particularly clear. Departure and gate closure are two absolute deadlines that I would expect to meet. and 30 minutes was more than enought time to do that on Saturday.

Why would there be an issue with a security cleared (clean pax) mingling with arriving passengers, if they both have to exit in the same place? Usually the exit routes involve a series of one way 'gates' after passing each you can't backtrack. Domestic and international have difference regimes at differnt airports but, as for staff, why would any pax need to be escorted?

At the scottish Airports and MAN, LGW and A number of european airports 'clean' pax can exit from departures then re-enter the system at security to be screened again. At LGW BAA track you with photo ID. You can go in and out after you get to the departure gates - as if you were an arriving passenger. Where international and domestic depature lounges are combined, all departing pax have the same status and may or may not mingle with inbound domestic pax- however, international arrivals pax are always segregated.

Actually I will spend more time with BMI as they seemed every bit as good as BA whose quality has been on the slide for some time. In fairness I haven't actually paid for a BA flight in 2 years and am still using up BA miles! So I suppose I shouldn't feel too hard done by!

5 , 15, 25, 30 extra? There is no leeway in the conformance cut off - you now have to second guess the length of the queue pre security to be safe. If you re not scanned in you're off the flight.

It's just unnecessary hassle when flying on a domestic route, I can do without.

But the rules don't apply to Munnyspinner

Free Upgrade

:hmm:

What are you going to do when BMI annoy you ?

Entirely explainable: In the UK an 'on time departure' is recorded if the aircraft pushes back on time.

It might have indeed pushed back on time, but had a slot time, and a remote hold might have been arranged, and so it held on the tarmac at LHR until the slot time, thus it took off late.

Still officially an 'on time departure'.

Munnyspinner

Are you sure your colleague was flying with BA to GVA?

I've checked..... of the 8 flights to GVA from LHR yesterday (23rd March) only one arrived late. It departed 15min late due to the aircraft arriving in late from its previous flight. BA.com correctly indicates that it was 15min late on departure.

The only other delay was a 3 minute delay due to ground congestion at the terminal - but it was 12 mins early at the terminal in GVA.

P.S. The CAA says that a departure within 15min of Schedule is "ontime" for their stats.



Note to self: Stop feeding the troll!

I'm intrigued as to how you know whether the terminal is "like a cathedral for the living dead", or as busy as Picadilly Circus before you even get there..!!:suspect:

You have no idea what's going on at the Terminal, or do you..?..:hmm:

Chill, you'll give yourself a heart attack..!

A few years ago I was delayed by a fatal collision on the M40 and arrived at a BA check in desk seven minutes before scheduled departure. I made it onto the flight. I don't know if we left on time but we didn't arrive significantly late. That was BA at its best.

If Munnyspinner could have flown without delaying the flight, but was offloaded merely as punishment for failing conformance by a couple of minutes, that is BA at its worst, and they deserve to lose Munnyspinner's (and others) future business. Sadly for BA, I keep hearing stories like this, and I doubt I am the only one.

montag

I don't disagree with your comments about the anecdotal evidence of the high handed attitude of some BA groundstaff BA, as I encountered this in January.

However, to arrive at a major international airport, 30 mins before departure is unrealistic IMHO.

London City, perhaps, London Heathrow dodgy.

Munnyspinner

As said by others it's clearly marked at numerous stages of the booking/check-in process. Conformance has proved hugely beneficial to BA's punctuality levels as it means they know 35 mins before departure if they're going to have to offload bags rather than waiting until the gate closes to see who didn't make it. You have to draw the line somewhere. If they decided to cut off at 30 mins they'd be good in your books but someone else who turned up at 29 mins would want to be let through. While it may prove annoying to a few people like you who don't read the instructions, for the majority of passengers who've turned up with a reasonable amount of time to spare it means they can leave on time or even early.

Your claim that bmi is more punctual than BA is wrong, since T5 (and largely due to conformance) BA is now much more punctual. They are also a lot less likely to lose your bag than bmi.

It's up to you who you travel with. If you don't like the conformance just fly bmi. Although the latest bmi wheeze is they're replacing more and more LHR routes with E-135/145s now, so I hope you don't mind cramped spaces...

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink! Just because folks are held in a 'shopping' area doesn't mean they'll buy anything:rolleyes: I very rarely buy anything at an airport despite being offered so many 'great' deals.

I always aim to arrive at any airport at least 2 hours before departure, the aim is to be walking through the main entrance no less than 1hr 15mins before departure whether I'm using a check-in desk or not. In 30 years of travelling I have only ever missed one flight due to the motorway route being backed-up for miles (peak use time), I learnt my lesson and now use an alternative route, A & B roads, if I travel during that peak usage period.

'Runners' used to be common place years ago indeed I remember easyJet even had a 'Runners' boarding card which worked rather well for those who turned up late (if you could make it to the gate before the aircraft doors were closed you could get on) but it was withdrwan when easyJet realised it was being abused by 'important' businessmen! Since the introduction of additional security requirements, the sheer increase in volume of people travelling and the increase in distances in many airports 'running' a passenger has quietly been abandoned as it should be.

Arriving anywhere for any flight in LHR at STD -30 is being unrealistic, jeez even Linford Christie would be hard pushed to cover the distances and hurdles involved in that time:)

Better Time Management required:=

I like the Embraer 145. Would choose it over a Boeing any day. Just don't bring too much hand luggage. :)

Narita airport last September. Due to a complete foul up on getting the right train to airport(my fault) I arrived 17 minutes before flight due depart. Expecting to be issued a ticket for next day at best, instead found myself in my seat on the plane with 11 minutes still to go.

More remarkeable, my luggage made it too.

Munny,

I'm glad you've decided to try BMI. At least my colleagues didn't have to deal with such a ranting passenger. Your posts sounds like a child having a tantrum. Grow up, follow the rules because they apply to you too. If you don't want to follow the rules, take the train or bus instead, or do the whole country a favour and drive :}

Gg

I'd take the EMB over a packed BA domestic configuration, any day, specially on the LHS single seat side.

Glamgirl

He may be unreasonable, but his money is as good as anyone elses and I find your attitude odd for someone in the industry, who should be pleased to see customers at the moment.

F3G,

The reason I posted what I posted was because I thought this chap's ranting was so ott. No doubt would he (sorry if I got the gender wrong) have taken his frustrations out on ground staff and cabin crew, even though he was in the wrong for not reading the information on his booking. I've had a fair few pax like him on board through the years and there is no reasoning with this kind of person. You end up spending the whole flight trying to please them, make them feel better and get nothing but "abuse" in return.

Yes, we do need passengers, but it doesn't mean we have to put up with unreasonable behaviour. Nothing to do with my attitude towards customer service.

Gg

Humble pie
 

Sorry guys, but I'm going to have to apologise to BA.

I've just had a response to my complaint. A full refund and 4500 BA miles as a sorry. No explanation other an error on their part! Ooops!

Should I ask for more?

If it was because someone at BA has been reading this thread - thanks,
you are human.

I still don't agree with conformance!

Well, that's your perogative.

Me, I'll take the unreasonable clients so long as they pay in a recession, I have the professional skills to deal with them, even if it is tiresome.

This makes grim reading 'Sick' aviation industry on a flight path to $4.7bn losses, warns IATA - Telegraph

I am missing something here? You don't make the deadline to get into the lounge and they apologise to you and give you a pile of miles?

Did you forget to mention something?

35 mins is enough for regular travellers, but for some people it is not. So having 35 mins notice to offload someones bags etc from a flight rather than finding out 10 mins before departure helps the flight go on time.

Hence BA has some very good punctuality figures from T5 which in turn is a benefit to the regulars as they are hanging around less for those that can't get from security to the gate in 35 mins.

Bet you're on time in future though. :)

Would help if the 74x series of buses to T5 from Central bus station, were made to run to their timetable, instead of the adhoc basis a that appears to be the norm at the mo. It is easy to lose 30 minutes or more waiting for one at present.

I have no more detail but did question whether they were a bit previuos in offloading me given that even by the time I got to the desk I was only 2 minutes after the cut off. My inbound flight was overbooked that morning and they were looking for volunteers at £100/head so I do wonder if I had been axed before 1855?

If so, coupled with the fact that I may still qualify as a commercially important passenger, this might explain what is a very welcome U-turn.

I have learnt enough never to look a gift horse etc.

If I ever do fly via T5B I will be careful to avoid this nonsense again but I think, for me LCY will remain my preferred London Gateway.

Can I just clarify one point. I was on a short domestic route. The turnaround time at Heathrow is prossibly only 30minutes anyway(?) I had virtually no hand baggage and, bearing in mind I was already checked in with 0 bags and that check in closes 45 before departure, the system can see that there would be no question of bags being offloaded.

Knowing that there were no bags checked in would and should allow some leeway on the 35 min cut off. If I am correct about turnaround it would seem that there could be NO bags actually loaded by 35 pre departure and so they would be offloaded not from the A/c but from the baggage hall. Now, I don't want to start another string here about BA and baggage but...

This information that is available to load controllers and customer services pre flight for each passenger. Had I been on a transfer with baggage then the risk that I would delay the aircraft due to late arrival might be high. Indeed, on the few occasions that I have seen baggage being offloaded it is usually due to transfer pax being lost.

I have accepted culpability for not reading the information carefully enough and will not make this error again. However, it still strikes me that 35 minutes pre departure is quite a long time for a short flight if there are no bags to deal with. But, it is what it is and it won't be changing just becuase it doesn't suit me!

The problem with BA (and with Britain in general) is that there is no discretion any more. You have to comply with the minutae of the rules whether they make sense or not. No one is willing to bend them to make life more pleasant.

Why should I show loyalty to a service provider who processes me, rather than treats me as a human being?

T5 and BA are classic examples of a process focused rather than customer focused operation.

Yes....you are spot on.

Mrs IB is very happy that AGP flights are to transfer to T3.

Getting to T5 by public transport, except by rail from central London is one big nightmare.

Well said SLF3B.

I had the misfortune to be one of the first pax to pass through T5 last year. What a chaotic shambles! The joke was that I know from an industry insider that they had been running trials for months before opening yet - BA couldn't get their staff to the right places at the right times because hadn't validated their passes or some such nonsense. Failed conformance?

I would avoid that place like a dose of the trots but I guess the Nigels are happy with their petty rules and regulations. Everyone classed and classified, pigeon holed into to their little system, so that they know where you are, where you're going and when and where you've been - but not a clue who you are. Process for profit.

A mate of mine used to be a beancounter for a chicken processor. His view was that there was actually no difference between running and airline and running his business - except the pax don't actually end wrapped in cling film in a refrigerator!

I have been no fan, and only a customer through necessity, of Blighty Airways since the Ayling era. Before then, I think BA had a deserved reputation but now, they have the same lame air about them as Aeroflot used to have ( actually, I've not flown with Aeroflop for some 10 years! and they might not have changed. ) Look at some of their smaller competitors Emirates and Virgin are two airlines that I think work hard to please the customer and benefit as a result. Are they as profitable per pax? I don't know but, I know where I spend my $.

Sad fact is that you will never convince a bean counter that the customer actually matters until they start voting with their feet. Look at Ryanair - Mr O leery is an absolute horror and the pax love it. If he told them that they would now need to pay double to get back from whichever remote airfield he has dumped them - even if they have a valid ticket - I bet that each and every one of them would be back the following week for the next unfeasibly cheap destination - even if they don't actually know where it is or want to go. The similarity with battery hens keeps coming back to me! Why is this? Is air travel addictive? Are all Ryanair customers submissive masochists? or, do they just like bargain? I suspect the latter - it's so cheap we have to go!

For as long as Ryanair and other predatory Budget beasts roam the earth the days of customer care will remain a thing of luxury. So why would anyone else provide frills if they don't need to?

Does anyone know if BA are more punctual than Ryanair?

Sorry, IB4138, I don't agree. If, like me, you're usually approaching from the M25, T4 & T5 are preferable to the other terminals because they avoid the M4 and the spur, which is just one more risk of congestion. If you're arriving at LHR down the M4 (e.g. from central London), of course, the opposite is the case.
If you're aiming to arrive during the rush hours, you're probably stuffed either way and then rail does look attractive, but it's not an option for me :{

By PUBLIC TRANSPORT...not by car!:ugh:

Try getting to T5 from the west by bus ...Slough, Uxbridge, Beaconsfield, Watford...etc. Whilst there are a few services that go to T5, they visit the central bus station first. A central bus station to T5 shuttle is required, run on a reliable, frequent, timetable.