Truly Disturbing passenger behaviour.
 

Flew into the UK last night, j class, and sat next to a middle aged couple (Brits) who had 5A&B. I was across the aisle from them and when they boarded they seemd OK, apart from the champagne wasn't cold enough etc. etc. Taxying out, they insisted on a 2nd round of champagne, which they kept hold of through take off, which actually annoyed me a bit, but thats a separate issue. Anyway, as we took off they held hands, and started to pick out items from the Duty free book as gifts for each other,and I thought, yeah, thats nice.

After a few more scoops, it was time for dinner, and he wanted champagne, white wine, and red wine. And so it continued, for about an hour or so.

Then it really started.

They had a loud argument, ending in him giving her a proper thump or two in the face. I was shocked, and livid. I got up, went forward, and mentioned to the CC that there was a "domestic in 5AB, and that they might want to keep an eye. "No problem, thank for letting us know, we'll keep a watching brief, incase it escalates" was the reply.

Well, it DID escalate, he assaulted her physically no less than 5 times, and verbally continuosly, for the rest of the flight. When she got up to go and find another seat he physically dragged her back, and replaced her luggage in the overhead bins. everytime he had a drink, it started again, often witnessed by the CC.

What action did the CC take ? None other than to continue to supply him with vast quantities of Booze, exacerbating the situation.

So, the quesstion is, what should they / could they have done to end this truly awful display of abuse ?

Intoxicated pax
 

He should have been secured as per standard procs for all UK carriers.

Suggest you report this to the carrier direct with all flt data.

tezzer hello,

Nice of you to point out to the cc about these pax. I thing they handled the issue correctly since the gentleman in question created no hazard to other pax but the lady travelling with him. I seem to recall crew stating that it is a good idea not to cut off completely the supply of Booze as not to enrage the pax. And at the end of the day what happends between a couple (sort of a murder) is not our business - in most cases.

I think you did your duty as you felt fit and you can let the case rest.

Rwy in Sight

"And at the end of the day what happends between a couple (sort of a murder) is not our business - in most cases."

Unbelievable attitude.

A man assaults a woman 5 times and it is not the crew's business to interfere?
The police should have been waiting at the pier and arrested the perp on the aircraft and the guy should have been restrained.

Runway in Sight, are you saying that crew are are qualified as clinical psychologists and able to make accurate risk assessments as to whether this guy was likely to turn on someone else?

Tezzer, I agree with merlin XX and applaud you for taking positive action.

Tezzer what a dreadful experience. Very difficult situation for the CC but I would not have been happy with such a hands-off response. I don't expect CC to be vigilantes. But if they are prepared to restrain drunken/abusive passengers, then why not for a prolonged, violent domestic such as this? Never mind whether we decree domestics to be a 'private matter' (hmmm) ,to me this repellant man's behaviour was clearly upsetting for other pax and that is ground enough for more intervention.

Final 3 Greens,

No, I am not say that crew are are qualified as clinical psychologists and thus they can't make accurate and watertight assesment. However I still like to point out the issue was contained within seats 5A&B. I am not supporting domestic violence but my understanding is that cc gets involved when a situation tends to get clearly out of hand by annoying (how to say it?) pax out of his travelling party. For exemple if the gent in question try to attack tezzer.

Rwy in Sight

I have to add, that this morning I am still disturbed by what I experienced last night.

That poor woman. Having said that, there are two sides to every story, and from my Seat 5C, across the aisle, I acould hear what he was saying / shouting, but apart from her repeated shouts for him to leave her alone, I couldn't hear the full dialogue.

As I said in the CC forum, this is a tough one.

We are trained that statistically, your chances of being attacked when intervening in a domestic disturbance is very high. Both parties will turn on you. This is evident on the ground as it is in the air.

Separating them was a good idea. If it was my flight, I would have been pushing for restraining action at the point where he was dragging her back to her seat. Crew would have also had to prepare to restrain her, if need be.

Diversion would have been a last resort as it does inconvenience everyone and will cost money. You are also leaving the passengers in an outstation that will do nothing more than put them on the next flight once they've sobered up.

Arrest on arrival in the UK is probably the best option but as Tezzer said, they were taking pills. I can see the pax claiming stress, alcohol combined with pills, squeezing out a few tears and copping a fine.

Clearly, it is unacceptable. I know I would find it difficult NOT to get involved. I couldn't stand by and watch anyone being hit on the aircraft. However if you are a young, slim, female crew member, it would be very frightening and you have your own safety to consider. You can't always rely on other passengers to help you out, either, in situations like this.

Violent behavior is violent behavior, whether it's to wards a stranger or ones spouse and should not be tolerated!

Not being aware of company policy but is it not the CC's responsibility to notify the captain when a passenger is exhibiting potentially threatening behavior, let alone already assaulting another passenger?

When a woman is repeatedly assaulted on a plane it isn't just the responsibility of the cabin crew to intervene it's the responsibility of any decent minded person.

Any assault on a co pax,irrespective of the relationship is something the Cc should be concerned about.
regds
MEL

Drunk On Aircraft
 

If this was a UK AOC operated aircraft, it is an offence against the ANO to be drunk on the aircraft. If the drunk had threatened or disrupted the cabin crew, that also is an offence against the ANO.

Far from disturbing the crew, apart from during the altercations, he was charm itself the the CC on our side of the cabin, complementing her on her looks, her deportment, and the impeccable ervice she had given. Indeed, he took the time out to fill in a feedback form about the CC member.

I would suggest it was all part of the psychological attack on his partner, praising another woman whilst verbally abusing his partner.

Hear, hear SXB. :D

Society is full of gutless cowards today, who sit back and expect somebody else to deal with all the problems which they kindly drop in someone else's lap and then bravely run away to watch from a safe distance.

Makes me sick. :yuk:

Maude Charlee

I agree with what you say 100%, but an aircraft is not a democracy (the company delegates authority to the captain, who delegates it to his/her crew) and surely Tezzer did the right thing in going to the chain of command, otherwise he could have become involved in the fracas and been considered a guilty party?

Had I been him, I would have been prepared to support the CC in restraining the pax, but taking the law into one's own hands is risky under UK jurisdiction.

Runway in Sight

I can see where you are coming from and I don't agree with your view, but at the end of the day would agree that it is a very difficult situation to deal with and not one that I would wish on any crew.

Maudee Charlee
 

So are you suggesting that I intervene, on an aircraft and get involved in a potentially physical assault with another pasenger ?

That WOULD increase the chances of us BOTH being restrained, and being offloaded to the police in either our final destination, or worse still at a divert, with the associated risks ?

Oh, get real. It is NOT my responsibility. I acted, in a responsible and prudent manner, advising the aircraft's crew, who hold the authority to act in such cases.

I am mere SLF, and have NO interest in becoming involved, unless I am asked to support the crew, in their lawful duties. Under those circumstances, I would have been happy to stick one one this bully, and help to have him restrained.

Are you two suggesting that if the CC don't intervene then the other passengers should?

That's a very honourable standpoint (although with the potential to turn out rather misguided). I think the cabin crew should have been much tougher (bearing in mind that I wasn't there and only know what tezzer has told us) in this case...not so much because the safety of other passengers was at risk but because it would make people like this think twice next time before becoming violent.

Tezzer,

You seem happy enough to berate the CC for not taking action in a situation which you describe as a violent and repeated physical assault, and therefore a serious criminal offence. Or is this all an exaggeration on your part?

It doesn't matter to me if the alleged assault took place at 39000ft or in the street in front of my house. I would intervene, and I would use reasonable force to restrain the offender as I am perfectly entitled to do so should that become necessary. If the crew refused to act as you claim, I would inform them of my intentions and see what transpires.

If the world was full of folk like you, the likes of Richard Reid would never have been stopped. Just what would it take for you to intervene? A murder?

I think you are being a little unfair on Tezzer, Richard Reid was a threat to the whole aircraft whereas this guy was just violent towards one person and I doubt he constituted an actual threat to life. If one is travelling alone and one tries to intervene the likelihood is that it's just you vs. him...and you might end up getting injured yourself with no benefit to the original victim. The other passengers and the crew might come to you're aid...but what if they don't?

If you can convince other passengers to help you or are travelling with friends who you know you can count on...then I'd go for it!

tezzer did the right thing by reporting his observations to the CC. The last and worst thing to do is for anyone to get involved in a "domestic" unless the person on the receiving end clearly asks for help. More often than not a person interfering in a domestic issue is turned on by the feuding two.

but
 

from my slight experience of these incidents on the ground, there are couples who enjoy a verbal back and forth, and maybe some pushee-shovee. It sounds silly, but most abused women bounce from one abuser to another and on again, they don't seem to know any better.

Doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean it's how we should all act with our partners, but I would agree with the CC that if there is no danger or massive inconvenience to the other passengers they should deal with it in a low key way. Certainly if they went gungho and diverted en-route and ran out of hours etc, then I suspect a passenger vote would overwhelming support a decision to continue on to destination!

G

I think that reporting to CC is all that can be done as they have the force of law to support them. If a solo pax does tackle a physically active person, then the chances are that they will be beaten and make things worse. As I understand it, CC are trained in restraint and two of them would work as a team.

Separation and restraint would be beneficial to ensure that the flight maintains it's schedule. Whilst the man was clearly in mental difficulty from medication/drugs and alcohol, as well as being overly polite to CC whilst beating his wife - the chances of a brawl in the cabin must have been high and that would have cost the carrier a lot more.

I have no doubt that CC are loath to wade in to these unusual situations as there is a high likelihood of them being hurt. But their employer pays them to keep order in the cabin for the safety of ALL on board. I am sorry if that is harsh and I realise that this is a situation that most CC will only witness once in their career, but it happened and did endanger many. I say DID because his actions were not stopped and could have resumed at any time.

It must have been horrible to witness and conveying full information to the carrier is important. I say that because, the carrier needs to know how many such events there are each year. Are these increasing? Are we training staff correctly? Etc.

Final 3 Green,

I think we are from an environment not too disimilar geographically speaking at least. The situation was bad and obviously the lady was a human being and she has the right to be free from any harassment (verbal or physical). Furthermore a threatening (sp?) behaviour from one individual to another may constitute a hazard and is bad (for lack of a better word) for other pax as well.


In the rapidly typing statement earlier I was mainly concern about the escalation issues of depreving a drunk guy from his booze and the fact that the person trying to separate two fighting individuals may be beaten up by both. Someone said it earlier. One more thing: I was thinking along the line of but of people going from one abuser to the next hence my idea about staying out of a couple's arguments and incidents. It is obvious that it is not right to insult and attack your partner.

Rwy in Sight

Oh bollox to this !

As a former Customs Officer, I did many sessions in arrest and restraint techniques. I COULD have easily disabled this guy, and had him restrained.

However, it was not my place to do so. I would have been putting myself in a difficuly position, legally, by assaulting a fellow passenger, based on what I had seen and heard, in an environment where I have no legal right to do so. I may, as did the other passengers have a moral right to step in, but if it had escalated, I would have been out on a limb.

I reported it to the CC, and they chose to ignore it. Indeed, when one of the male CC witnessed one of the physical assaults, he wandered past and asked thr man if everything was OK ! "yes, fine" was his reply. How in God's name could it have been.

I have said my last on here, I will however be taking it up with EK tommorrow. Nuff said.

I don´t know UK national rules, but in Spain if that happens on board inside Spanish territory that guy is defenetely handled to spanish police, and that´s bad for him. We no longer tolerate violence against women, and laws are really tight in those cases, in no longer than 24 hours he would be in prison for a time.

Come on now Tezzer,

The last line in your 1st post:

The first line in your last post:

If you ask a question on PPRuNe what else do you expect other than a multitude of conflicting answers and opinions? :hmm:

Tezzer,
Mate spot on with your actions. I think to suggest that you personally should have intervened would have possibley opened up a whole can of worms. Drunken pax are more likely to respect the authority of a cabin crew member regardless of physical size or gender over a fellow pax. Citizens arrest laws are not necessarily the same in the air as they are on the ground but someone else could prove me wrong on this point. Aviation regs the world over give specific powers to aircrew but I would suggest very limited powers to pax.

Very upsetting I am sure it was but PAXboy is right when he says that the CC would need to carefully assess the situation before barging in and perhaps making things worse.

Next time, come down the back in 'Y' with the rest of us. Much better class of people down there.:cool:

"Next time, come down the back in 'Y' with the rest of us. Much better class of people down there"

I think that you are actually correct. Up front, and the further forward you go the worse it seems to be, the more obnoxious selfish and demanding seem the passengers.

Excluding me, of course !

I'm actually surprised this behaviour didnt result in a visit and some stern words from the captain, with threat of restraint or divert & offload to local police...It seems a bit weak of the crew not to act in my opinion...The authorities would almost certainly intervene on the ground, had this happened in a restaurant or other public place, so why not in the air? :confused:

Am I mistaken here?? Assault is Assault. Did anybody (as there were many witnesses) call the police on landing?

Or is it OK for a guy to bash a woman, as it is on a plane at the time?

I cannot believe what I am reading.

Perkin I would suggest its actually rare that any member of the flight crew would leave the flight deck to deal with this kind of situation, purely because with violence taking place in the cabin you don't want the flight deck door being opened - who knows what it could escalate to from there. You also don't want a member of the flight crew being injured (if it got to that level), especially on a 2 pilot crew.

As far as "the authorities" go, the Captain has legal authority in the air and passes that on to the cabin crew inflight as and when required. Cabin Crew restraining a passenger counts as arrest, and once the captain has given permission for the crew to do so then the person has been arrested as if they were on the ground.

The question of why this crew didnt intervene is an interesting one. There is a parallel thread running in the Cabin Crew forums which is good reading, with cultural/training issues being raised (this was an EK flight).

Its also important to remember that no one here, including Tezza, is actually aware of what discussion took place amongst the cabin crew regarding this incident.

Huh, I think people just do the BARE MINIMUM these days - Unless it is of a bonus to them:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Seriously thou, i think people like the Male Pax should be 'nipped in the bud' he obviously is not bothered about what anyone else thinks??

And most of all does not think twice about giving someone GBH:=

I know what I would have done to him:ouch::ouch:

sinala1
 

Yes, good point about having flight deck door open, or indeed possible injury to one of the flight crew, I hadnt considered that. Perhaps it would be more likely on a multi-crew flight where a 'spare' could be called upon if necesaary, but I guess this depends on how severe the incident appears to the CC...I also wasnt aware the captain could pass his full authority to the cabin crew.

I think any arrest carried out by a person with a warrant card would be equivalent to a citizens arrest on the ground, certainly in the uk, so not quite the same as being arrested by a police officer...I presume an airline captain has similar authority to a sea captain in this respect?

I was also going to suggest that cultural differences may have played a part in this instance...

what happened was wrong, but it happens all the time and its the way some relationships operate. It's a bit like saying I like pork so everybody has to eat pork. Well no. You don't have a bit of pushee-shovee with your wife so don't reckon anybody else, but some places are more expressive.

I betcha 90% of the people on pprune are button down sulkers that when they don't get their own go quiet and grunt for 2 days like a child. Whereas I've seen "expressive" people that have a huge drama and a minor punchup and 10 minutes later are all lovey-dovey again. Horses for courses.

G

So let me get this straight - you are condoning the violence that took place?

Don't forget that onboard an aircraft its an offence to commit a violent act - lovers tiff or not. Do not pass go, do not collect £200, no correspondance will be entered into.

I won't even discuss your agreeance with violence as a means of conflict resolution, especially against a female :yuk:

nope, don't condone it. But on the assumption that any story teller exaggerates by 50%, and any poster to a bulletin board by another 50%, then I bet the incident wasn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be. In the end all BB posters are like journalists and exaggerate otherwise it's not exciting. I note the original poster didn't say any other passengers also got up to complain or got involved. Soooo.

In the end you have to go by results, not effort. If the CC had gone straight to lockdown then (a) the plane diverts and all pax lose a day/4hours of their life (x200 pax) in a terminal not expecting them at all (b) the police do lots of paperwork and interview the crew etc (c) the next day the couple are back on the streets of nowhereville and back together! oh and (d) there might well have been a fracas in the cabin during the lockdown. She would probably have been helping him resist.

So, tezzer felt uncomfortable for a while, 200 people got where they wanted to be on time, the squabbly couple kept squabbling and will for another 20 years, I would say good result given the hand dealt! If she chooses to stay with an abusive partner then that is her call!

G

Actually groundbum, your right. I didn't see any other passengers get up and take a lead, correct. What I DID see, with no embelishment whatsoever was a man and a woman having a long and extended argument, which involved him lashing out at her on at least 5 occasions.

It was discussed as we tool the long walk from gate 202 back to immigration, and reffered to as "the floor show" by the young couple sat directly behind the warring factions. They were of the opinion that SHE was giving him back as much as he was dishing out.

Now, I am a firm beleiver that there are 2 sides to every story. She was drinking heavily too. They both took pills of some description. I could here his tirade of frankly disgusting comments to her, but I couldn't hear what, if anything she was saying, apart from when she shouted at him to either leave her alone, or to stop hiiting her / spitting in her face.

Perhaps they were both in the wrong ? That still does not excuse him hitting her, if he was perchance the victim, HE should have got up and walked away and found another seat. But, it was her who tried to re-locate, and him who lost his temper again, threw his empty glasses to he floor, and dragged her bodily back to her seat.

groundbum,

Thank you very much for better saying what I did try to do a couple of days ago.

Rwy in Sight

No one has stated, or asked what flag the aircraft was under.

In our culture, assault is assault and carries criminal charges regardless of whether or not the victim is known to the attacker or not.

In strict Muslim cultures where Sharia Law is practised, the woman is treated as inferior to the man and is expected to tolerate beating from her husband, father or brother if she does not obey their wishes!

Could this, perhaps, be the reason why the crew took no action?