Brace position
 

Is the brace position we're supposed to take upon crashing designed to save our lives or end our suffering quicker?

Just wondering.

I can't say that I'm exactly an authority on the issue but are you actually serious?

Keeps the head attached to make the dental ID easier.....

Good question though. If safety realy was inportant, there'd be five point harnesses with backwards facing seats and doors like Soutern Region.

Depends on which brace position you mean, there are several different ideas.

Your head is going to hit the seat in front of you anyway so you may as well put it nearer to reduce the acceleration forces upon contact......

Those two mincers on "Myth-Busters" did a busting session on the brace position. They got some wallahs to sit in a mock-up and assume the position before the entire arrangement was dropped from a height onto the ground.

When the dust had settled it emerged that they slightly less intense permanent back difficulties if they used the position.

As a long-term sceptic, I was moved.

The real question is, if they can make the black box (aka flight data recorder) out of light-weight indestructible materials, why not make the entire aircraft that way?

That and smoke hoods for all the passengers. However as usual it comes down to cost. Rear facing seats cost more and are heavier than the standard airline seat. Same thing for the 5-point harness, cost.

To answer your question the brace position is to keep your head from slamming into the seat in front of you which is likely to break your neck.

Expanding on this thread, is there any record of a commercial flight ditching in a) the sea/ocean or b) a body of water and the majority of the pax surviving by getting out, inflating their life vests, and getting into a survival raft? I've always wondered if the life vests demo is entirely worthwhile.

Ozzy

What do you mean, supposed to take? With some LCC seat pitches these days, you have to assume the position just to fit in the seat - you can see the impression of a nose on the seatback in front of you from the person who sat before. Two hours later, you can't feel your feckin' legs, and you're supposed to get out, inflate your life vest, etc? It'd probably be a small mercy if you were landed at an airport and they blew the slides - you wouldn't feel your legs break as you came off the slide even if you made it out of the aircraft in the first place.

<RANT MODE OFF>

You learn something new every day. I always thought it was so you could kiss your a**e goodbye!!

Sorry, but what do you expect engaging in a meaningful debate in JB?

I'm not sure why they would cost more Con. I thought the problem was that pax didn't like to sit facing backwards. Sort of a glass half empty glass half full thing.

WN used to have those club seats and it was a little uncomfortable on climb out if you were facing backwards, though it did give you an opportunity to look up the skirt of the woman sitting opposite :E

The army use to make us take the seats out, then put them all back in again...facing the other way for our trooping contracts.

Soldiers are all brave, so they didn't squeal when we rotated. Well, not many of them anyway. However, the spontaneous clutching of the armrests, did cause them to drop their armory. The cabin crew spent considerable time each flight, retrieving hand-grenades, rifles and daggers from the back of the cabin and returning them to the men.

Cries like "I had a blue hand-grenade...:{ " took up a lot of extra time.

Smoke Hoods and Lifejackets
 

Could they not design it so that the lifejackets had a smoke hood built into the back, and the lifejacket only inflated when it came into contact with water?

That way you have one pack for two purposes, and you avoid the situation of silly pax inflating their life jacket when inside the a/c.

Also, im sure i watched a prog about how lifejackets by the nature of their design swung you round so you were facing into the swell, making it that much more difficult to breathe as the waves hit you. In this situation, the smoke hood would keep the water off your face.

See? Full of good ideas me.

Matt

I had a talk with a mate of mine who runs certification tests on aircraft seats. The subject was childrens seats and restraints. He said that holding a baby in front of your stomach during a crash is a good thing.

Not for the baby -- it gets crushed to death.

But it does help the other person!
:sad:

I know, most people are going to jump on me about the cost, cost aside, why not incorporate air bags (as in cars) behind each seat.

I'm ready for a roasting.

DO'L

At least the plane would stay afloat upon hitting the sea....:E

Ozzy

Ozzy
Yes, quite a few, includinga Super Constellation ditched mid Atlantic where every single person was saved.

There's another point to bracing, and it's a bit squeamish: People have survived incidents but been unable to release safety belts because their arms were both broken. Bracing can reduce the risk of this.

Airbags are a nice idea (fnarr) but equipment levels reflect cost, weight, practicality and - the big one - the probability of need. The chances of a passenger jet making a forced landing on water are miniscule, so it's equipped with basic life jackets or just floatation cushions. (And in many areas, the cold will kill you before the water). Conversely, the risk exposure's higher in a North Sea helicopter so the norm is immersion suits, insulating layers, enclosive lifejackets (MMEmatty's design ;) ) air rebreathers and sometimes 4-point restraints.

If I felt the need, I wonder if I'd be allowed to to travel in a crash helmet... :confused: :\

Onan, that is what I thought as well. However when I was with the Marshal Service we decided to turn some of the seats around so the guards could better watch the prisoners on takeoffs and landings. So like a typical government agency we went ahead and tried to turn the seats around, well guess what, you can't just turn them around. (The FAA got real upset with us, not that they could have done a lot about it however.:p )

With rear facing seats the the bracing for G loading is entirely different and the seats heavier due to the additional framework and more expensive due to the additional metal brackets needed for a body's G loading spread over the entire back rest of the seat.

That is probably why all of Southwest Airlines new aircraft have done away with the club style seating arrangement that was installed on the older aircraft. (Now that is just a guess about Southwest mind you.)

Well it was a Boeing Stratocruiser, and the Pacific Ocean but otherwise you're spot on :p (google "Sovereign of the Skies").
Several Connies have but ditched with varying numbers of fatalities in every case unfortunately.

Apologies for a serious post.

I do remember a Flying Tigers Connie ditching just off Ireland (I think) back in the late 50's or early 60's with US Military families on board and everybody survived. I was living in England at the time, however, I can't remember any details other than the above.

Well, now that I am thinking about it I do remember my father (Air Force Pilot) telling me that the captain had moved everyone to the front of the airplane because the tail section of the Connie had a tendency to brake off on ditching.

Okay, on further research it was flight 923 (I believe) and 28 people died and 48 lived, so I stand corrected.

(Ain't Google great!:ok: )

Ozzy, see http://www.super70s.com/Super70s/Tec...Antillean).asp for a story of a ditching and http://www.airsafe.com/journal/issue6.htm#contents for a few more.

I can never understand the announcement:

"in the unlikely event of us landing on water"
Darned unlikely - Unless it's an old seaplane, you don't land on water, you crash:eek:

Perhaps Flaps can advise on this - seeing as she seems to be up early in the morning,and still Prooning at disgusting hours at night (well, it's 23:40 here ;) )

My only real worry is that, in the (unlikely) drop in cabin pressure, when I pull the mask to start the oxygen flowing (see, I do listen to the pre-flight briefing...) the little transparent plastic hose will snap and I'll end up looking blankly at a stupid yellow mask with said hose hanging desperately down, wondering if the principle of survival of the fittest justify my grabbing hysterically the mask of the fat woman sitting next to me, while jabbing my fingers in her eyes to keep her from taking it back.

Aw yggorf don't worry about it, you'll probably end up brain dead anyway from the lack of pressurized oxygen.;)

Didn't a DC9 ditch in the 70's where the majority of passengers survived.

I think the aircraft ran out of fuel over the Carribbean Sea when he couldn't land after several attempts in bad weather and didn't have enough reserves to reach his alternates.

I hear a lot of US pax now carry their own personal emergency smoke hoods etc. Maybe there's a market out there for some sort of 'multi-airbag bodysuit'? It worked for those Mars rover thinggies...sort of?! :8

Thanks Flaps, interesting reading but thankfully these are rare events. Scary that a number of pax were unable to remove their life vests from the container below the seats.

Hanger3, you are thinking of the flight detailed in the first of Flaps links above.

Ozzy

Paper Tiger, here's a link to the Connie.

If they don't know who I am, how do they know who my dentist is.............. ?
:hmm::rolleyes:

Hey, that's right! Everyone complains about the fingerprints databases, the DNA databases etc. because they might infringe civil liberties. But there must be a bleedin' humongous 'dental' database out there by all account...?! :8 :(

Now, why have I always hated dentists...? :confused: :*

As an ex matelot (24 years before the mast). When ever I flew Crab Air, and in those days it was a VC10. All the seats faced to the rear. Was this mearly a milatary thing or did the civvy versions also have rear facing seats. Also when I flew out of Gib the seats opposite me by the (let me out quick) exit also faced to the rear. This I can see was to give the space by the door to do a runner when the plane got in to difficulties. This was on a Dan Dare 737 I believe.

No - it was only "Crab-Air" that used this config - I remember walking to the flight deck of the VC-10s through the empty aircraft before the pax boarded, that the seats were strictly "civvie config" on BOAC.

Now the Dart Herald, DID have @ss-facing seats - I think they were in row 1, where the occupants of the first 2 rows had a table between them - bit like British Rail - so they could have a meeting whilst flying - if they could hear themselves above the prop noise ;)


(The VC-10 was in the days when I was paid to go jump-seating :O as a fligh sim engineer)

ESG, no idea mate; have always wondered about that one myself when I fly with the competition. :confused:

The Mythbusters TV show in the US did a real life experiment, into the use of the crash position. Now, they were using a mock up aircraft that was suspened about 13 feet in the air, and impacted the ground at about a 60 degree angle. They used a dummy with G meters and other gadget's.

They actually found that the brace position reduced injurys upon impact. And increased survivability of the occupent. You would really need to watch the episode to get all the info they found. And believe me, these two guys on this show are the least scientific two you will find on the planet. But, they doo get some good insight into the Myth of the Brace position, and it's pros and cons.

The passenger seats at exit and bulkhead rows on our A340-600 a/c are all fitted with airbag seatbelts designed to inflate upon impact. They are also fitted to the Upper Class Suites. I was told this came into place after a safety recommendation follwing the BMi Kegworth disaster. Can anyone confirm this for me?


KTP xx

If I wuz on an aircraft preparing to ditch, I'd assume the put-your-head-between-your-legs-and-kiss-your-ass-goodbye position. :}

dont you guys know anything? the brace position was designed so crew could pinch as much stuff as possible from the o/h bins without being seen.

some religions claim the brace position has mystical powers and is an act of reverence to the flight deck crew not unlike kneeling and praying with heads bowed

i just hope when its my turn that it is not to bumpy to keep reading my book between my feet.

If it were safer to fly backwards as such, I think I'd rather do so. I've never tried it before obviously but if the military do so for safety reasons I'd not disagree with such a configuration.

I'm not a medic of any sorts but I wonder if it would increase the risk of DVT and such?

Brace position? What you lot on about planes for?

Put on handbrake, chock rear wheels, take wheel brace to wheel nuts and loosen, jack up car, undo wheel nuts with brace. Brace position should be both feet firmly on ground, knees bent and back kept straight. Apply force to wheel brace in an anti-clockwise motion. Nuts should loosen:eek: Repeat with other nuts. Change wheel and apply reverse procedure to above.

Off to bunker again...