Infants In Business Class
 

I am planning a long business class flight later this year as a celebration - possibly around the world. I wish to ensure that the onboard comfort is good, food is reasonable and ( most important ) that I will NOT be surrounded by screaming kids. Does anyone out there know of airlines that deny business seats to small children.

None that I know of, but I am sure there would be a market for this... at the very least, on routes which are flown multiple times per day then it should be possible to designate some of the flights as "min age 12" or something.

I must admit I was mightily pissed off recently to be in First on a BA from LHR to EWR where there was a baby screaming for at least 30% of the flight. After a while I went and sat in business, which really isn't what I was paying for. The crew were most apologetic and trying hard to help the mother shut the thing up (harder than the mother was trying, frankly). They also gave me the rest of a very nice bottle of wine which I had had one glass from for me to have the rest with my dinner, but there isn't a lot more they can do.

Hey, babies cry. It's what they do. They are not trying to purposefully upset you, it is the only way they can communicate. And if their parents pay the appropriate fare then they have as much right as you to be in first class. So be nice to them, they will be looking after you when you are old and dribbling.

Interestingly when F pax have been disrupted by rock singers and their entourages having an impromptu party in the cabin, there are accounts of the airline giving the other F pax a free F ticket in compensation. So there is plenty of precedent for regarding the premium cabin as somewhere where you pay for a refined environment.

Just remember. You had children once. I'm planning on using business class to New York for a few days. Guess what Im taking my 18month old and I hope Im on the same flight as you.

Similar subject on Jet Blast recently echoing that point of view - selective flights without young children/babies...and I upset up all the parents by indicating my view (as did others) that very young (crying/noisy) children/babies should not be in business class (preferably not on certain flights as a whole)) and that in fact they were 'antisocial' to those who choose not to have kids...the emotioned knee jerk response from the mummies and daddies precluded any sensible/reasoned discussion to those points... ;)

I also see the advantage in excluding the young. Air travel should be restricted to over 18’s. Also, with the exception of me, they should be under 30, female and single. The problem appears to be that airlines operate to provide services to people who are prepared to pay for them rather that to serve my specific requirements, anybody would think it was public transport.

Why do folk travel biz/First? Let's be honest, it's not for the catering and it's not just about the space. They pay the extra so they can work better or sleep sounder.

I wouldn't take an infant up front for fear of spoiling everyone's journey. Some folk know the risk but don't seem to give a damn. Speedbird_heavy seems to revel in it. On the other hand, loud conversations have the same effect. What to do - ban talking?

No easy answer. I'd be all for designated 'quiet zones' as some trains have but they'd be difficult to implement. Alternatively, an insulated 'noise zone' for the infants and rockstars. And to promote mutual tolerance, permit smoking in there. :p ;)

For the hard of humour, I do not promote smoking in front of infants.

We have many children, and have taken them in everything from Concorde to charter flights. No matter what class of travel they have all been taught from a very early age of the privilidge they enjoy and the behaviour that is demanded from them. I have always been proud of their behaviour on aeroplanes ( not something that is always the case in other circumstances), and that has been endorsed by some very complimentary comments from pursers and other crewmembers.

I can understand that other people do not expect to have to suffer discomfort from other peoples children and the price of premium class tickets acts as something of a natural defence in this regard. That is no guarantee of course, nor should it be assumed that unruly children are any more welcome in economy. As others have said it is public transport and you have to put up with the consequences of that reality from time to time.

Infants do cry, but usually for a reason. Parents do not enjoy the fact any more than other people and will nearly always seek to rectify the matter. Babies have a limited ability to communicate and nature has given them a very good method of establishing an imperitive and difficult to ignore signal. It is difficult to cry when they feeding, drinking and sleeping and they do do a lot of this.

The only way of guaranteeing who will surround you on a flight is to charter a private jet.

Why should you dictate who sits in what class of cabin??? If I'm willing to pay the same amount of money, then I have every right to take my son with me. I had no problem on the BA002. Infact passengers on this flight were happy about it and showed affection for my son. You might travel J or F class every other day and take it for granted. People like myself save hard to experience how the other half live and Im not going to let someone in a suit tell me what I can and cant do.

EDITED TO REMOVE OFFENSIVE PROSEPPRuNe Radar

My only bad experience of this, which I have described before, was a "Third World" Ambassador's wife and their two children (not babies) in C class on EI Dublin - London, who treated the front cabin as a personal playpen, ran around screaming, overturned other pax's drinks, scolded the FAs who tried to control things, stole items from the cart, and generally were the Flight from Hell. Skipper should have put the seat belt sign on, but as they ignored it when it was put on for the London approach, would have made no difference.

Good to see our foreign aid to that poverty-stricken country being used in this way on these tickets.

Too many parents don't know how to control their kids.
 

Pax who travel with infants and small children should be seated in the last row of the rear (Economy Class) cabin on all flights at all airlines; it should become a World standard as a courtesy to the obvious majority of adult passengers. :ooh:

Children should be seen, not heard.

Simple, really. But too many 'new age' doting parents seem to have forgotten this simple concept. Neither do they seem to understand that the apple of their eyes is not necessarily that of other peoples'....

I'm one of those :mad: s that insist on enjoying my flights when I pay the retail fare... and I keep children away from me any way that I can.

I even complain when Y passengers come through to J class to use the toilets!!

Correct me if i'm wrong, but a debate involves views from different points of view does it not. You have aired yours and I mine. You dont like my view and I dont like yours.

Untill someone can tell me what gives them the right to dictate whe sits where then I will stand by my comments.

As you lot are mega rich and can afford to fly busuness class every time I suggest you try what has been quoted above. That way I can enjoy a flight with out you lot thinking you own the aircraft.

As this thread becomes increasingly polarised (pax who can't bear the possibility of the proximity of children vs parents who can't bear to concede that the presence of children may sometimes be irritating), it strikes me that what we're missing is a bit of tolerance.

Has modern life become so stressful that, unless we can control our environment exactly/be surrounded by only by people who are exactly like us (fellow harrassed parents/stressed-out business travellers) - we feel deeply uncomfortable?

What about others who makes us uncomfortable or get in our way? The elderly or disabled passenger limping slowly down the aisle, while we're stuck behing them desperate for the loo/another drink? Do we segregate them as well?

I am as annoyed by the next person by the parent who lets their children run riot and make life unpleasant for those around them. But what about responsible parents, with well-behaved kids, trying desperately to shut the baby up?

How much would the atmosphere change in the cabin if, instead of being met with a scowl, harassed parent receives a sympathetic smile from stressed-out business person? And if harrassed business person receives a rueful smile and a muttered "I'm so sorry about this" in return?

It's a hackneyed fact that we were all children once, but also that we all different, with different needs. We can't/shouldn't (IMHO) isolate ourselves from the rest of the human race. How about a bit of empathy/understanding instead?

speedbird_heavy

You fail by personally attacking the posters and not solely their arguments or points of views. The latter is allowed and is called debate. The former is against the rules which you signed up to when joining PPRuNe. Hence your turn of phrase has been removed from your post.

Any more of that type of posting and I'll see that you are offloaded.

All other replies relating to your attack (i.e. those taking your bait and biting) have also been removed as they are not relevant to the issue being discussed.

:*

Perhaps a general statement from an airline indicating that passengers travelling in Business Class expect sufficient standard of comfort and quiet within which to work or to rest might suffice? Particularly with an addendum noting that parents flying with their children are asked to ensure that the behaviour of their children is commensurate with the spirit of this expectation?

It's not the teething small squealer which is the biggest pain (try a miniature Drambuie- oops, I never said that!), it's uncontrolled little beggars making a nuisance of themselves whilst their parents do nothing to stop them who are the biggest irritant!

PPRuNe Radar



I dont believe that I should be singled out here. I will however put my hand up and admit I was out of order. Question is, well anyone else?


Ok back to the"debate":

Can one of you "business men" give me a valid reason why I should not be allowed to travel with my son in any class on any aircraft with any airline if I am paying the same price for a ticket as you.

Provided you ensure that his behaviour is such that it won't cause unreasonble disturbance to other passengers, go right ahead.

If you can't manage to ensure that, please use another form of transport.

And that applies whether you're flying first class or on the cheapest low-cost carrier......

It's not so much the noise of children that can be irritating after all flights are very noisy, engines droning props turning, trolly's clanking, pax and crew conversations and you can always stick you headphones on . No, personally i think the worst thing about having children onboard sometimes is the smell ie when parents don't make a quick effort to change tot or leave the nappy bags hanging around yuck!

am travelling short- and long-haul in c-class, both alone on business and privately with family (including now 7 and 5 year old daughters) - not on miles or ID tickets

even when our kids were not the quietest for short periods of time, fellow travellers did show hindsight, conceding that they are children.

all in all we have been faring well - bar that gentleman who had to continue from SIN to MEL with a pair of soiled slacks (air-sickness) after he gracefully assisted me when our little one was ill - but even he took it with style and accepted by spare pair of jeans (two sizes too big, but the belt did it)

when travelling alone in C-class, it has usually not been the behaviour (or lack thereof) of small children, but more often the behaviour of fellow adult passengers in various states of intoxication or making uncalled-for and offensive comments to cabin-crew (mainly female...) in regards to appearance, indecent proposals, a non-available choice of meal, 'restrictions' on quantities of liquor served, delays, bumpy flights, mal-functioning in-flight entertainment systems - you name it.

edited for syntax....

No reason at all, provided you acknowledge the fact that you and your son are not the only people on the aircraft.

Possibly unlikely I feel.

Childless flights
 

Why not have a complete service child free? Charge a 10% premium for that flight and no super discounts or perhaps no discounts at all. With suitable publicity it would not take long to see if the numbers justified it.

I agree with Beagle that there should be an expectation of peace and quiet when travelling but, on the other hand, as has been said before, small children, particularly babies, only have one way of communicating. And that is noisy!Changes in pressure can affect their ears, just as it does to adults, and that discomfort can trigger distress. So, circumstances can be outside parents control.
What will be more distressing is the day passengers are allowed to use mobile phones on aircraft! That will be more noisy and intrusive than any distressed minor!

Business, Economy and Kiddies class, that's what we need ;) ! Yes, we were all children once. I often travelled as a small child. Thanks to a good upbringing I was always well behaved. My children likewise. I have no objections to children in Business or First Class as long as they behave accordingly. "Babies cry" someone said. Well, yes they do, but in all honesty if I had to endure a crying baby for hours having paid a premium price (out of my own pocket) for a seat which promised me comfort, peace and quiet, I might get a little irritable too. Fortunately my experience is that babies tend to cry pre take-off and on the descent and are fast asleep the rest of the time.

I'm curious as to whether this is a cultural issue - I wonder whether the same issue arises with Iberia or Alitalia, or indeed other countries where the perception of children is different? In my experience (mostly Spain) adults seem to avoid getting quite as stressed about younger humans as they do in the UK. A higher tolerance level seems to be the norm, and sometimes pleasure is actually taken from the company of children. Could it be that we have something to learn? - Discuss...

Like Avman I have no problem with kids on planes per se. If they are well behaved then no problem, and no big deal with babies crying for a few minutes during ascent or descent. But the problem I had on the above mentioned LHR-EWR flight was that the baby was crying loudly for at least the first 4 hours out of a 7 hour flight.

Screamed all the way from Nairobi to Mombasa in BA J once (I was about 18 months).

The Steward was no help either; all he could come up with were liquer chocolates......

What a ridiculous thought; deny children access to business class.
I propose to deny people on board who have smelling breath, who are ugly, who are not dressed nicely, or who otherwise might bother you.
Take mr heavy`s advice and rent your own plane, so you won`t bother anyone else:*

I posed the original question regarding infants - not children. I think infants are classed as less than 2 years old and usually travel free when accompanied by a guardian. Is it not, therefore, rather ironic that a pax ( the infant ) who is paying the least fare ( £0 )on the aircraft is, if being uncontrollably noisy, causing the greatest nuisance to those who are paying amongst the highest fares.
If airlines insist on permitting infants in 'business' or first class then perhaps it is time to rename the various compartments of the aircraft to reflect the fact that they may not be suitable for either business or rest and thus may not provide the luxury they advertise.

As a parent of two and frequent flyer I would like to chart the middle ground here. We are blessed with two very well behaved kids who have traveled regularly by air since birth. The blessings of which I speak though were not wholly bestowed by heaven but through their upbringing and consistent discipline which makes them a pleasure to travel with. That their behavior on-board is almost always complimented by my fellow passenger, is a source of pride for mum and dad – and by the way they are both extremely happy kids.

Central to my thesis is, when suffering badly behaved children, the main culprit is the accompanying parent(s). My casual observation is that those same adults are often the type that would disturb your flight in some way without their darlings in tow. This doesn’t of course prevent the annoyance of suffering bad kids on board in any class.

My empathy is always there to the young couple or mum with a crying baby on-board, desperately trying to appease its needs – the situation is tearing their heart out too – I know, we have been there. Help from us is always available be it the sympathetic smile right down to the hands-on action. I am rather proud of my baby burping technique and enjoy the adulation that comes from the successful completion of the mission. My wife has also the kind of shoulder and murmur that sooths troubled little souls. Sometimes it is enough to give the parents the respite to gather their own strength for the task ahead. As to being puked on under fire – well that’s all part of the Great Game. So I think you can see that I’m very tolerant of babies and get very annoyed at badly behaving kids – or adults for that matter.

Only once did our family have the pleasure of traveling business class. My then seven year old daughter settled herself into her chair across the aisle next to an understandably nervous looking businesswomen. She politely introduced herself, admired her palatial surroundings and said “Daddy, I do like business class!”. Thus started a very enjoyable flight for all, with compliments from businesswoman and crew at the end. It can be done folks, it just takes good old fashioned parenting - which is not universally fashionable these days.

To answer the original question though. It is my understanding that there are neither child nor infant fares available in business class, at least on the carriers that I have flown. Would I take my infant though into business class even if I had the money for another full premium fare? – No, I would be too embarrassed lest he/she disturbs someone who has paid a lot for a bit of P & Q. I believe tolerance works both ways.

Willowman

My experience of taking my infants in business class is that they were charged at 10% of the full adult fare. That's for no seat, or guaranteed basinette. I've also paid the discounted adult fare for when they were children, as often this has been cheaper than the child fare at 66% of the full adult fare.

FWIW, my own view is that I expect my children to behave on an aeroplane, in any class, in the same way they should in a resturant or hotel. Words or worse will be had if they disobey.

cur

In my opinion, badly behaved children on aircraft be treated the same as badly behaved adults?. The only difference being, that as most of these children act this way because they've never been taught how to behave properly, and their parents don't give a sh1t about the other passengers, any disruptive action should result in the parents (and the children) being refused a business/upper class seat in the future.
I've ocassionally had to sit beside people who have very young children or babies, who often scream or cry, BUT, whilst this can make for an uncomfortable flight, this is not what I am refering to. Crying (and puking) by babies is normal and can not be avoided.
The majority of children I've ever encountered on aircraft, are usually very well behaved. Surely if some can manage it, it wouldn't be too hard for all of them.

419

This topic surfaces at regular intervals and really gets my goat. I travel in F & C on business alone and when I travel for leisure my family and I travel in C. Because I can afford it and because when I'm going on vacation I don't see why I should squeeze myself into an airline seat with a shoehorn and hobble around at destination for 24 hours because I had no room for my legs.

My two boys, now strapping teenagers, have always flown up front wth my wife and I. They have behaved well, which is more than can be said about many adults that have surrounded us.

Do I need to go through the catalogue of transgressions that we adults commit and yet which we seem to tolerate somehow because the transgressor is the same age as us and has a gold card? Snoring loudly (ok, that's probably me, so I thought I'd get that in first), two colleagues yacking loudly over their headphones so they can continue the conversation without missing the movie, taking of shoes and socks and resting bare feet on the seatback in front, .....and the list goes on.

Why do we always pick on the parents and kids? Because we always pick on those that are weaker and present an easier target. Becuse we are all intolerant, becuse we all think that the world revolves around ME, and because it is our RIGHT. We are ENTITLED. The thing that I always have to laugh about is why business class passengers (whose tickets are often being paid for by their companies) seem to think that they are holier than the people in the back of the bus. Why should economy passengers be any more disturbed by a child (or by a boorish adult) than a passenger in business class? Don't they have rights too?

Rant over....I'm outta here

Yay! - Go Snoops - Couldn't agree with you more :ok:

Its good to see more people posting here and putting "mature" travelers in their place.

Business class check in, BA, Abu Dhabi. Comment from an old hand:

'If they offer you an upgrade, turn them down - the kids run around all night - you'll sleep better in Club.'

I've never seen badly behaved kids in Club, but don't count crying babies. Perhaps rich brats are the price of travelling first class!

Christep

So how would you have stopped the baby crying? This is a serious question, I would love to know a foolproof technique.

I think Tightslot has it right. Compared to many other nationalities the British do seem to be intolerant towards children. This is most notable when travelling through Europe where children tend to be seen as a joy and not an encumberance.

Funny isn't it.


You're entitled to take your children wherever you like, whenever you like.

I'm not entitled to a flight undisturbed by rowdy kids.


I offer the above as an example and ask who the selfish party is?