Are you intimidated by Cabin Crew?
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Are you intimidated by Cabin Crew?
Hi everyone,
Firstly I want to thank you all for giving me an in sight to how passengers perceive the avaiation world.
I find your posts interesting.
I was very suprised and chauffed a few evenings ago whilst doing a usual flight. I got chatting to 3 passengers that were very open with me after they had endulged in some wine. 3 well dressed men, said that avaiation always managed to get there interest, and they found it fasinating what kind of a life we lead. I always thought my life was very "normal", just get up go to work ect ect. But these passengers were amazed. But the most suprising aspect was how they all commented that they often felt uncomfortable, shy and embarressed when approached by Cabin Crew. I asked them why they felt like this, and they said its just that they are in an environment that they are not used to and didn't want to draw attention to themselves.
This left me shocked, and I started to wonder if a lot of passengers felt that crew were unapproachable for some reason or another.
Firstly I want to thank you all for giving me an in sight to how passengers perceive the avaiation world.
I find your posts interesting.I was very suprised and chauffed a few evenings ago whilst doing a usual flight. I got chatting to 3 passengers that were very open with me after they had endulged in some wine. 3 well dressed men, said that avaiation always managed to get there interest, and they found it fasinating what kind of a life we lead. I always thought my life was very "normal", just get up go to work ect ect. But these passengers were amazed. But the most suprising aspect was how they all commented that they often felt uncomfortable, shy and embarressed when approached by Cabin Crew. I asked them why they felt like this, and they said its just that they are in an environment that they are not used to and didn't want to draw attention to themselves.
This left me shocked, and I started to wonder if a lot of passengers felt that crew were unapproachable for some reason or another.
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I run an audio visual company, have no connections with aviation apart from the fascination that you describe. I'm certainly no planespotter but even after nine years living near the Heathrow/Gatwick flightpath still look up at aircraft and dash outside when I hear a Concorde.
I find it a bit strange that anybody should feel intimidated by cabin crew. There are only two types in my experience, those who work their way through the cabin as fast and impersonally as they can and those who make eye contact, smile and generally seem as if they love their job - I've met far more of the latter.
I think most jobs in aviation are perceived as vocational, if you mix in all of the foreign travel, the cameraderie that usually exists between the crew and ignore all of the disastrous days and frustrations that that come with any customer facing role not to mention the hard slog of feeding and watering a couple of hundred people in a slim metal tube then yes, most of us slf think it's glamourous. Incidentally, I like most slf thought that crews stayed together and changed routes as a team, I met a great steward on ba2166 coming back from tpa last oct and was most impressed with the teamwork and teamspirit considering that none of them had met before that flight.
The difference between a good flight and a bad flight can be in the hands of the cabin crew, the age or type of plane is irrelevant to me, if the crew feel it's safe enough to get on then so do I. Meals are an irrelevance too, it never ceases to amaze me that a couple of hundred people can be fed within minutes of each other from such a small galley. The ife doesn't bother me, I take the time to read, something that I don't normally have time to do. I appreciate when you guys keep under control people who don't know how to behave in public.
In short a special occupation but unapproachable - never
I find it a bit strange that anybody should feel intimidated by cabin crew. There are only two types in my experience, those who work their way through the cabin as fast and impersonally as they can and those who make eye contact, smile and generally seem as if they love their job - I've met far more of the latter.
I think most jobs in aviation are perceived as vocational, if you mix in all of the foreign travel, the cameraderie that usually exists between the crew and ignore all of the disastrous days and frustrations that that come with any customer facing role not to mention the hard slog of feeding and watering a couple of hundred people in a slim metal tube then yes, most of us slf think it's glamourous. Incidentally, I like most slf thought that crews stayed together and changed routes as a team, I met a great steward on ba2166 coming back from tpa last oct and was most impressed with the teamwork and teamspirit considering that none of them had met before that flight.
The difference between a good flight and a bad flight can be in the hands of the cabin crew, the age or type of plane is irrelevant to me, if the crew feel it's safe enough to get on then so do I. Meals are an irrelevance too, it never ceases to amaze me that a couple of hundred people can be fed within minutes of each other from such a small galley. The ife doesn't bother me, I take the time to read, something that I don't normally have time to do. I appreciate when you guys keep under control people who don't know how to behave in public.
In short a special occupation but unapproachable - never
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Not unapproachable but probably a bit world weary of being hit upon, maybe?
I've a pal whose ex wife used to run an air hostess recruitment company near Heathrow (early 90's this) . I never met her but the tales he told, led me to believe that you have to have bags of self confidence to do the job as well as a host of other skills not normlally seen by the passengers.
I've a pal whose ex wife used to run an air hostess recruitment company near Heathrow (early 90's this) . I never met her but the tales he told, led me to believe that you have to have bags of self confidence to do the job as well as a host of other skills not normlally seen by the passengers.
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Hello
I do not have any direct connection with flight operations and hence no axe to grind. But I belong to a part of the world (India) which is wrongly and unjustly I feel perceived by quite a few cabin crew as a "horror" route. Subsequently I have witnessed quite a few flights in which many of my fellow country men who have not had the prvilege to have a good education or be coached in such "important" issues like "manners" and "etiquette" get the rough end of the stick from a few cabin crew.
Now I do not have any intention to raise yet again the tiring "discrimination" rhetoric, but having been a SLF in a few such international flights, I do wish that some more sensitivity is shown by some of these cabin crew to these unfortunate passengers , many of whom are on the arcraft returning home to their families after slogging in sometimes pititable condtions after two or three years.
I was abroad one such flight recently and observed that 80% of the people spoke one particular Indian Language (this is not a state secret - the passenger profile on this particular route - DOH TRV as well as similar routes are well known to everyone), forget the fact that there was no crew speaking the local language (I guess understandable to some extent), but the all important safety announcements were also not made in the local language.
Now keep in mind that this particular airline flies about 10 weekly flights to that part of the country alone.
What I feel from my limited experience about such "problem flights" is that in most cases there have not been any real efforts to educate the cabin crew about the various cultural aspects. This only aggravates the situation. Communication between both the passenger and the crew on board are important as well.
In my last flight out of India, I was sitting next to a passenger I had profield earlier. he was a first time flyer, had no clue of flying and couldnt follow any of the announcements made. Under such a circumstance, if people become insecure can you blame them and it is sad that a small but still significant number of cabin crew instead tend to take it on the passengers instead of trying to understand the situation.
Ofcourse I am not saying there arent the occasional obnoxious exceptions, but the same is there in the western world who have the added benefit of understanding English (or atleast one of the languages spoken on board) and in such cases, this minority of crew I am talking about are understanding to a far more extent. I remember in a particular case in which one of these passengers asked for a second meal as he was hungry. Yes it may not be possible, and of course the poor guy didnt have the command of the language to ask ina suitably polished way, but that was no excuse for the jumped up reaction of a few cabin crew which made the situation appear as if all hell had broken loose.
That said, it will be only fair to point out that what was in many cases more the rule than the exception is now increasingly becoming the other way round and my last flight on Qatar Airways was absolutely faultless and the service on TRV DOH sector was as good as the one on DOH LHR.
Once again let me reiterate my posting is not to complain , but now that te opportunity has come up, to put forward "the problem passengers side" of events. After all he is as much a fare paying SLF and come to think of it less obnoxios than the coated and suited types in their designer suits and their handmade shoes expecting first class service in an economy seat!
Cheers
I do not have any direct connection with flight operations and hence no axe to grind. But I belong to a part of the world (India) which is wrongly and unjustly I feel perceived by quite a few cabin crew as a "horror" route. Subsequently I have witnessed quite a few flights in which many of my fellow country men who have not had the prvilege to have a good education or be coached in such "important" issues like "manners" and "etiquette" get the rough end of the stick from a few cabin crew.
Now I do not have any intention to raise yet again the tiring "discrimination" rhetoric, but having been a SLF in a few such international flights, I do wish that some more sensitivity is shown by some of these cabin crew to these unfortunate passengers , many of whom are on the arcraft returning home to their families after slogging in sometimes pititable condtions after two or three years.
I was abroad one such flight recently and observed that 80% of the people spoke one particular Indian Language (this is not a state secret - the passenger profile on this particular route - DOH TRV as well as similar routes are well known to everyone), forget the fact that there was no crew speaking the local language (I guess understandable to some extent), but the all important safety announcements were also not made in the local language.
Now keep in mind that this particular airline flies about 10 weekly flights to that part of the country alone.
What I feel from my limited experience about such "problem flights" is that in most cases there have not been any real efforts to educate the cabin crew about the various cultural aspects. This only aggravates the situation. Communication between both the passenger and the crew on board are important as well.
In my last flight out of India, I was sitting next to a passenger I had profield earlier. he was a first time flyer, had no clue of flying and couldnt follow any of the announcements made. Under such a circumstance, if people become insecure can you blame them and it is sad that a small but still significant number of cabin crew instead tend to take it on the passengers instead of trying to understand the situation.
Ofcourse I am not saying there arent the occasional obnoxious exceptions, but the same is there in the western world who have the added benefit of understanding English (or atleast one of the languages spoken on board) and in such cases, this minority of crew I am talking about are understanding to a far more extent. I remember in a particular case in which one of these passengers asked for a second meal as he was hungry. Yes it may not be possible, and of course the poor guy didnt have the command of the language to ask ina suitably polished way, but that was no excuse for the jumped up reaction of a few cabin crew which made the situation appear as if all hell had broken loose.
That said, it will be only fair to point out that what was in many cases more the rule than the exception is now increasingly becoming the other way round and my last flight on Qatar Airways was absolutely faultless and the service on TRV DOH sector was as good as the one on DOH LHR.
Once again let me reiterate my posting is not to complain , but now that te opportunity has come up, to put forward "the problem passengers side" of events. After all he is as much a fare paying SLF and come to think of it less obnoxios than the coated and suited types in their designer suits and their handmade shoes expecting first class service in an economy seat!
Cheers
Paxing All Over The World
I go along with the view of the two main 'categories' of CC. Perhaps the fact that I have been paxing for 38 years means that I have got over any shyness or uncertainty that I might have had!
As one that is experienced as pax and knows a little about the biz (from the outside) I probably know more about when to request something and when to hold back. Consequently, I get treated OK by most CC.
The one thing I know, is that I could never do their job!
Hey, folks, do you think I've done enough crawling for this month?
As one that is experienced as pax and knows a little about the biz (from the outside) I probably know more about when to request something and when to hold back. Consequently, I get treated OK by most CC.
The one thing I know, is that I could never do their job!
Hey, folks, do you think I've done enough crawling for this month?
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Caveat; This note is not aimed at all cabin crew, just the obvious, noisy, arrogant, self obsessed minority who are enough to make flying a regular unpleasant experience, you know who you they are !!, this message is for them....
I fly long haul 1-2 times a week !!, airline choice is dictated by who gets me there fastest at the most convenient times.
Asian airlines seem to have courtesy down to an art form, but on Euro/US airlines and particularly British ones, intimidation seems an art form.
1. Can you all stop using "passenger" as a form of grading, ranking as in Capt/FO/CSD/FA......Passenger, lowest form of life. As we are the ones keeping you all in a job, Mr, Mrs, Ms etc would be appreciated.
2. Without taking away the safety issues, you are all working in a service industry.....serving paying customers.......excepting you are all airborne, there are certain striking similarities with .....well I am sure you can imagine (insert any service industry job). The customer is king/queen. If this fact of life is somewhat unpalatable, suggest you look for other rewarding work as MAW (model, actress, whatever..) if centre of attention is your thing, or maybe look for a front seat where you only have to address pax through the intercom.
3. It is getting kind of boring to hear "air rage" used as a shield behind which to insult and intimidate passengers. Respect is a return ticket, not one-way.
4. And in case you haven't noticed travelling the world and staying in cheesy hotels is eventually boring, tiring and isolating from real life, I know I do it a lot too, if you have been paying attention at the start of this little missive.
Before you are tempted to reply in insulting terms consider the following;
1. Look in the mirror for a bit of self examination.
2. If your airline is still in business after the next two years, it was probably me and my fellow suffering pax who kept it that way for you.
I fly long haul 1-2 times a week !!, airline choice is dictated by who gets me there fastest at the most convenient times.
Asian airlines seem to have courtesy down to an art form, but on Euro/US airlines and particularly British ones, intimidation seems an art form.
1. Can you all stop using "passenger" as a form of grading, ranking as in Capt/FO/CSD/FA......Passenger, lowest form of life. As we are the ones keeping you all in a job, Mr, Mrs, Ms etc would be appreciated.
2. Without taking away the safety issues, you are all working in a service industry.....serving paying customers.......excepting you are all airborne, there are certain striking similarities with .....well I am sure you can imagine (insert any service industry job). The customer is king/queen. If this fact of life is somewhat unpalatable, suggest you look for other rewarding work as MAW (model, actress, whatever..) if centre of attention is your thing, or maybe look for a front seat where you only have to address pax through the intercom.
3. It is getting kind of boring to hear "air rage" used as a shield behind which to insult and intimidate passengers. Respect is a return ticket, not one-way.
4. And in case you haven't noticed travelling the world and staying in cheesy hotels is eventually boring, tiring and isolating from real life, I know I do it a lot too, if you have been paying attention at the start of this little missive.
Before you are tempted to reply in insulting terms consider the following;
1. Look in the mirror for a bit of self examination.
2. If your airline is still in business after the next two years, it was probably me and my fellow suffering pax who kept it that way for you.
Aisle seat, please.
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The truth is that cabin crew vary as much as the rest of the human population. After most flights I emerge blinking into the sunlight grateful for the friendly and proffessional service. On rare occaisions I find myself echoing robmac's sentiments above - but, I repeat, this is rare.
All that being said, cabin crew are sometimes intimidating. My experience is that this is especially the case with US based airlines where the crew tend to have a rather brusque. formal approach to the passangers which gets the job done, but doesn't put you at your ease.
All that being said, cabin crew are sometimes intimidating. My experience is that this is especially the case with US based airlines where the crew tend to have a rather brusque. formal approach to the passangers which gets the job done, but doesn't put you at your ease.
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RobMac,
I can only wonder at how bad the minority were that caused you to post such an angry post. I am not cabin crew, so I am not defending myself. I work on the other side of the door and these days only have the pleasure (or not) of meeting passengers when the flight is complete and I get to do the 'bye-byes'.
I would just like to explain a few things that may explain a lot to you.
Regarding your first point, that of addressing passengers as passenger, not by their title. On any given day I can fly with up to 24 different cabin crew and carry up to 596 passengers. No one can remember that many names, and to make it easier to understand who we are talking about when info is being passed between the crew (who's names we often can't remember either) we use the term passenger. It is not used to denote the lowest form of life on the aircraft. (That, particularly on long haul, is the FO
) However, when CC are dealing with individuals, I have only ever heard them referred to as Sir or Madam.
Your second point I can concur with part of the sentiment. However being slightly over fond of one's own appearance and and deportment is a side effect of being a people person. the traits go hand in hand yet I have come across many who appear to mince/swagger/swing their hips down the aisle who are at the drop of a hat make the customer feel like the only person on the plane. And your last remark in point 2 was a little below the belt - are you one of these people who are so busy on their mobile phone at disembarkation that you don't notice the pilot stood there? During the flight all communication with passengers is made by PA only because the government says we are not allowed to leave the flight deck unnecessarily.
Point 3. Don't knock airrage if you haven't seen it. My experience of it involved police, but noone was injured. To someone like yourself it may not have appeared to have been airrage. To the person (another passenger, not CC) involved it left them deeply traumatised. I have never encountered CC using airrage as an excuse to be rude.
From my side of the door I don't get to encounter the passengers until the end of the flight, and I can honestly say some of them would test the patience of a saint. You would not believe the things people say to me because they believe 'the customer is king/queen'. There is not a ticket that you can buy, not for any price, that allows you to be unjustifiably rude in a way that was not at all provoked by the staff member. As most airlines don't have a direct hotline to God to get cheap saints, they tend to take on human beings instead, and so you get the wide range of personalities that I encouter at work every day. I admire many of my colleagues (and yes, I do wonder how some of them got their job) but I have to say I could not do their job, and if I ever had to I think every so often I would snap, maybe not in a big way, but maybe I would find it hard to put a smile on my face. So many passengers accuse CC of being sourfaced and yet have no idea that their behaviour was the cause of the unhappy CC.
Robmac, as you said, respect is a two way street.
Edited to finish what I was saying when the electrician switched the power off.
I can only wonder at how bad the minority were that caused you to post such an angry post. I am not cabin crew, so I am not defending myself. I work on the other side of the door and these days only have the pleasure (or not) of meeting passengers when the flight is complete and I get to do the 'bye-byes'.
I would just like to explain a few things that may explain a lot to you.
Regarding your first point, that of addressing passengers as passenger, not by their title. On any given day I can fly with up to 24 different cabin crew and carry up to 596 passengers. No one can remember that many names, and to make it easier to understand who we are talking about when info is being passed between the crew (who's names we often can't remember either) we use the term passenger. It is not used to denote the lowest form of life on the aircraft. (That, particularly on long haul, is the FO
) However, when CC are dealing with individuals, I have only ever heard them referred to as Sir or Madam.Your second point I can concur with part of the sentiment. However being slightly over fond of one's own appearance and and deportment is a side effect of being a people person. the traits go hand in hand yet I have come across many who appear to mince/swagger/swing their hips down the aisle who are at the drop of a hat make the customer feel like the only person on the plane. And your last remark in point 2 was a little below the belt - are you one of these people who are so busy on their mobile phone at disembarkation that you don't notice the pilot stood there? During the flight all communication with passengers is made by PA only because the government says we are not allowed to leave the flight deck unnecessarily.
Point 3. Don't knock airrage if you haven't seen it. My experience of it involved police, but noone was injured. To someone like yourself it may not have appeared to have been airrage. To the person (another passenger, not CC) involved it left them deeply traumatised. I have never encountered CC using airrage as an excuse to be rude.
From my side of the door I don't get to encounter the passengers until the end of the flight, and I can honestly say some of them would test the patience of a saint. You would not believe the things people say to me because they believe 'the customer is king/queen'. There is not a ticket that you can buy, not for any price, that allows you to be unjustifiably rude in a way that was not at all provoked by the staff member. As most airlines don't have a direct hotline to God to get cheap saints, they tend to take on human beings instead, and so you get the wide range of personalities that I encouter at work every day. I admire many of my colleagues (and yes, I do wonder how some of them got their job) but I have to say I could not do their job, and if I ever had to I think every so often I would snap, maybe not in a big way, but maybe I would find it hard to put a smile on my face. So many passengers accuse CC of being sourfaced and yet have no idea that their behaviour was the cause of the unhappy CC.
Robmac, as you said, respect is a two way street.
Edited to finish what I was saying when the electrician switched the power off.
Last edited by Pandora; 5th Aug 2003 at 20:51.
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Pandora,
You have made a few points that are reasonable and make sense, particularly from your perspective, can I assume that you once were down the back and now have a seat with a good view ?
However (comma), in order to really experience some of these issues, you need to travel as pax for a while. Having ten years of very (very !) frequent short and long haul, I am almost qualified for a PhD thesis on psychology of air travel...
It has taken ten years for the dam to burst, and even then I would have kept it to myself but for this subject arising for discussion.
I agree there are a lot of obnoxious pax, especially the one in 12K who farted all the way from Frankfurt to Singapore the other day (I was in 12H), but that I believe is another subject thread.
Regarding the price paid by pax, and what they receive for it, every time I fly first or business long haul, I could have bought a small second hand car, or decent sports bike, (or an overhauled prop governor for my 303, but prices of GA parts are another subject I don't want to get on to). It is rumoured that the combined revenue of the premium cabins exceeds that of the holidaying masses down the back beeing subsidised by us, so you can imagine that some level of polite respect is expected from the service providers.
The term passenger is used over the PA, either at the terminal or on board, when the name is already in possession of the user, from manifest or whatever, so there is no excuse for the preface "passenger" instead of Mr/Mrs/Ms.
You will also note that I have mentioned comparisons with Far East airlines and in many cases they demonstrate the user-unfriendliness of others (as I say you have to travel often to compare), and as one point, on SQ and MH, they attempt, mainly successfully to remember at least the premium pax names.
Some incidences of real air rage are spectacular, some not so, and I have seen minor disagreements being turned in to threatening and confrontational situations by cc. It is basic psychology, that if a person is anxious, confined, tired, probably with a coupkle of drinks inside (not blind drunk), that they may be in some cases volatile material. That is not an excuse for the cc to play the part of detonator!!. In fact it is quite stupid to rely on the threat of prosecution for protection at 35000 ft. Unfortunately 12000 pounds a year does not buy much in the way of EQ, empathy and psychology. It is not about who is right, or who is in charge, it is about the safe and calm completion of the flight.
Without getting in to it, I have witnessed incidents, and I have been unhappy about the approach of some cc to myself on many occasions, but rather than be confrontational, I have kept it up my sleeve, and then written to the airline management later. Result...neichevo,nada, nothing. As a result I have stopped travelling on three airlines, and blocked requests from my staff to do so. Our previous spend was more than 800K pounds p.a. on those airlines.
Which brings me back to my last comment about the customer keeping you all in business..
All the same thanks for your comments, and I hope on reflection, mine may be useful in keeping your airline in business until you make Left hand seat.
Rob
You have made a few points that are reasonable and make sense, particularly from your perspective, can I assume that you once were down the back and now have a seat with a good view ?
However (comma), in order to really experience some of these issues, you need to travel as pax for a while. Having ten years of very (very !) frequent short and long haul, I am almost qualified for a PhD thesis on psychology of air travel...
It has taken ten years for the dam to burst, and even then I would have kept it to myself but for this subject arising for discussion.
I agree there are a lot of obnoxious pax, especially the one in 12K who farted all the way from Frankfurt to Singapore the other day (I was in 12H), but that I believe is another subject thread.
Regarding the price paid by pax, and what they receive for it, every time I fly first or business long haul, I could have bought a small second hand car, or decent sports bike, (or an overhauled prop governor for my 303, but prices of GA parts are another subject I don't want to get on to). It is rumoured that the combined revenue of the premium cabins exceeds that of the holidaying masses down the back beeing subsidised by us, so you can imagine that some level of polite respect is expected from the service providers.
The term passenger is used over the PA, either at the terminal or on board, when the name is already in possession of the user, from manifest or whatever, so there is no excuse for the preface "passenger" instead of Mr/Mrs/Ms.
You will also note that I have mentioned comparisons with Far East airlines and in many cases they demonstrate the user-unfriendliness of others (as I say you have to travel often to compare), and as one point, on SQ and MH, they attempt, mainly successfully to remember at least the premium pax names.
Some incidences of real air rage are spectacular, some not so, and I have seen minor disagreements being turned in to threatening and confrontational situations by cc. It is basic psychology, that if a person is anxious, confined, tired, probably with a coupkle of drinks inside (not blind drunk), that they may be in some cases volatile material. That is not an excuse for the cc to play the part of detonator!!. In fact it is quite stupid to rely on the threat of prosecution for protection at 35000 ft. Unfortunately 12000 pounds a year does not buy much in the way of EQ, empathy and psychology. It is not about who is right, or who is in charge, it is about the safe and calm completion of the flight.
Without getting in to it, I have witnessed incidents, and I have been unhappy about the approach of some cc to myself on many occasions, but rather than be confrontational, I have kept it up my sleeve, and then written to the airline management later. Result...neichevo,nada, nothing. As a result I have stopped travelling on three airlines, and blocked requests from my staff to do so. Our previous spend was more than 800K pounds p.a. on those airlines.
Which brings me back to my last comment about the customer keeping you all in business..
All the same thanks for your comments, and I hope on reflection, mine may be useful in keeping your airline in business until you make Left hand seat.
Rob
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RobMac,
You and Pandora are having a sensible discussion on the points about CC, most of which I know happens to some extent. Having worked, and still occassionally working, in the terminals at Heathrow I thought I'd give a reason why you might get called Passenger over the terminal tannoy.
When a request for an announcement is passed over, it's often just for a passenger name and flight, without the Mr, Mrs, Miss, Sir, Lord etc. Sometimes it's easy - Mr Rob Mac would be a fairly safe guess - but sometimes it's unclear what the appropriate title is (Kimura Takuya for example?) and using the generic Passenger is the safest, least offensive, option
Hope that sounds reasonable,
IGE
You and Pandora are having a sensible discussion on the points about CC, most of which I know happens to some extent. Having worked, and still occassionally working, in the terminals at Heathrow I thought I'd give a reason why you might get called Passenger over the terminal tannoy.
When a request for an announcement is passed over, it's often just for a passenger name and flight, without the Mr, Mrs, Miss, Sir, Lord etc. Sometimes it's easy - Mr Rob Mac would be a fairly safe guess - but sometimes it's unclear what the appropriate title is (Kimura Takuya for example?) and using the generic Passenger is the safest, least offensive, option
Hope that sounds reasonable,
IGE
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PH, going back to your original point
"I started to wonder if a lot of passengers felt that crew were unapproachable for some reason or another. "
The answer from me has to be a yes. I can honestly say that on approx 300 sectors in the last 5 years I have only once had a conversation with a crew member (I discussed plans for Christmas with three very beautiful Cathay CC on the way home from HKG).
Don't get me wrong though, it's probably more my fault than that of the crews involved. Knowing a little about the industry and the job means that I always feel a bit intrusive. I know you're often very busy, in a high pressure environment, and surely wouldn't appreciate being quizzed by some outsider who thinks he knows the job because he's read PPRuNE for a couple of years?
But despite what you think, we DO find your job interesting and I'd love to ask about how your duty rosters work, what kind of hotels you get dumped in, where is the best bar in xxxxx destination? I guess the perculiarly British concept of being reserved and not intrusive comes into play. Do you find pax of other nationalities behave differently?
One of the things I'm aware of (from this BB mainly) is that you're trained to spot 'odd' behaviour among the pax. If I'm the chatty one who asks about your job, how does xxx piece of equipment work? What is the crew rest bunk area like? etc. etc. wouldn't that make you suspicious? Do you really want to tell a complete stranger what hotels and bars you and your colleagues frequent? See what I mean?
It's a real shame because being locked in a tube for 12 hours with a group of people you find really interesting could be a great way of learning LOADS of stuff and widening ones social circle. I somehow think things aren't set to change anytime soon though.
Now, I've yet to bump into a CC wearing a Prune badge. When I do he/she will probably get 5 years of pent-up inquisitiveness all rolled into one sector - just hope it's a longhaul
"I started to wonder if a lot of passengers felt that crew were unapproachable for some reason or another. "
The answer from me has to be a yes. I can honestly say that on approx 300 sectors in the last 5 years I have only once had a conversation with a crew member (I discussed plans for Christmas with three very beautiful Cathay CC on the way home from HKG).
Don't get me wrong though, it's probably more my fault than that of the crews involved. Knowing a little about the industry and the job means that I always feel a bit intrusive. I know you're often very busy, in a high pressure environment, and surely wouldn't appreciate being quizzed by some outsider who thinks he knows the job because he's read PPRuNE for a couple of years?
But despite what you think, we DO find your job interesting and I'd love to ask about how your duty rosters work, what kind of hotels you get dumped in, where is the best bar in xxxxx destination? I guess the perculiarly British concept of being reserved and not intrusive comes into play. Do you find pax of other nationalities behave differently?
One of the things I'm aware of (from this BB mainly) is that you're trained to spot 'odd' behaviour among the pax. If I'm the chatty one who asks about your job, how does xxx piece of equipment work? What is the crew rest bunk area like? etc. etc. wouldn't that make you suspicious? Do you really want to tell a complete stranger what hotels and bars you and your colleagues frequent? See what I mean?
It's a real shame because being locked in a tube for 12 hours with a group of people you find really interesting could be a great way of learning LOADS of stuff and widening ones social circle. I somehow think things aren't set to change anytime soon though.
Now, I've yet to bump into a CC wearing a Prune badge. When I do he/she will probably get 5 years of pent-up inquisitiveness all rolled into one sector - just hope it's a longhaul
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robmac some of your points are thought provoking, and no doubt correctly reflect your experience as a frequent passenger.
Your comment "Unfortunately 12000 pounds a year does not buy much in the way of EQ, empathy and psychology." strikes me as glib, facile and rather offensive.
But feel free to generalise, disparage and offend; no doubt you view these actions as privileges bestowed on you by paying our wages.
Yes you have the right to expect exellent service from CC.
But has it ever struck you that passengers themselves are partly responsible for the erosion of standards you describe? (and which I recognise BTW)
With the advent of the low cost operators, tradional carrriers are forced to follow suit and lower their prices. Lower prices lead to savings having to be made. This translates into increased pressure on the staff. Less FAs per flight, less rest time, lowering of hotel standards, longer working hours. All these factors slowly erode the amount of flexibility and service mindedness of the CC. Not because they do not wish to be pleasant, polite and helpful, but because each human being hass a finite amount of endurance. If the endurance of FAs gets stretched too far, you get the situations you describe.
Something else...........
With the cost cutting, passengers all of a sudden do not get what they are used to or expect. Legroom decreases, food gets
worse, no more newspapers, or a myriad of other worsenings. Now despite what you think, FAs by and large care tremendously for the comfort and well being of their pax. Having to continously say "No, I'm sorry" is terrible.
FAs want to look after you properly; not being able to do so due to circumstances they have no control over, is extremely tiresome, demotivating and saddening.
Being shouted at by PAX who rightfully expect a lot more than what an FA can provide is another wearying experience.
robmac, all this does not change the fac that you deserve good service. But instead of being gratuitisly offensive about Flight Attendants and blaming us for all the bad that happens to you, give a thought to some of the underlying reasons.
Oh and before we start on the "why do Asian Fas, unlike western FAs, manage to put up with any kind of crap we pasengers dish out yo them with a smile"; think "culture" ,ratio of pax per FA, job insecurity, and lack of company support and legal protection for FAs when they get abused by infallible and ever courteous passengers.
Your comment "Unfortunately 12000 pounds a year does not buy much in the way of EQ, empathy and psychology." strikes me as glib, facile and rather offensive.
But feel free to generalise, disparage and offend; no doubt you view these actions as privileges bestowed on you by paying our wages.
Yes you have the right to expect exellent service from CC.
But has it ever struck you that passengers themselves are partly responsible for the erosion of standards you describe? (and which I recognise BTW)
With the advent of the low cost operators, tradional carrriers are forced to follow suit and lower their prices. Lower prices lead to savings having to be made. This translates into increased pressure on the staff. Less FAs per flight, less rest time, lowering of hotel standards, longer working hours. All these factors slowly erode the amount of flexibility and service mindedness of the CC. Not because they do not wish to be pleasant, polite and helpful, but because each human being hass a finite amount of endurance. If the endurance of FAs gets stretched too far, you get the situations you describe.
Something else...........
With the cost cutting, passengers all of a sudden do not get what they are used to or expect. Legroom decreases, food gets
worse, no more newspapers, or a myriad of other worsenings. Now despite what you think, FAs by and large care tremendously for the comfort and well being of their pax. Having to continously say "No, I'm sorry" is terrible.
FAs want to look after you properly; not being able to do so due to circumstances they have no control over, is extremely tiresome, demotivating and saddening.
Being shouted at by PAX who rightfully expect a lot more than what an FA can provide is another wearying experience.
robmac, all this does not change the fac that you deserve good service. But instead of being gratuitisly offensive about Flight Attendants and blaming us for all the bad that happens to you, give a thought to some of the underlying reasons.
Oh and before we start on the "why do Asian Fas, unlike western FAs, manage to put up with any kind of crap we pasengers dish out yo them with a smile"; think "culture" ,ratio of pax per FA, job insecurity, and lack of company support and legal protection for FAs when they get abused by infallible and ever courteous passengers.
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Jetlegs
Now you see how easily it is for you to get "gratuitously offended", how far on from that is it before you are accidentally spilling coffee in someones lap.
Try coming to the comment which offended you from a different angle, and you might see that low salaries are probably a more serious effect on quality recruitment and service standards than the lack of newspapers.
Also while job security may be an issue in the Far East, I still don't belive that cc are "faking it" to keep their jobs.
Rgds Robmac
Now you see how easily it is for you to get "gratuitously offended", how far on from that is it before you are accidentally spilling coffee in someones lap.
Try coming to the comment which offended you from a different angle, and you might see that low salaries are probably a more serious effect on quality recruitment and service standards than the lack of newspapers.
Also while job security may be an issue in the Far East, I still don't belive that cc are "faking it" to keep their jobs.
Rgds Robmac
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Another point which hasn't been covered is the fact that EVERYONE has a bad day occasionally for all sorts of reasons. If one CC member is a bit snappy one day it might not be their natural disposition. If you get the same one regularly then something may need to be said.
The same applies to we SLF. I suffer a bit on long haul with what appears to be lower than normal cabin oxygen levels which can make me a little miserable to speak to.
I guess the old adage of treating people as you would like to be treated applies.
The same applies to we SLF. I suffer a bit on long haul with what appears to be lower than normal cabin oxygen levels which can make me a little miserable to speak to.
I guess the old adage of treating people as you would like to be treated applies.
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I am a Senior on a Boeing 747 and operate on both long and short hauls flights, the airline I work for does work for many different companies, from charter to V.I.P and in the last 9 years I have come accross every kind of passenger, dear I say it, and crew member.
Things are hard up their now days, we used to take 16 crew, its now 13, we used to cater loads of spare meals, now, one each, if your lucky, and so many other things have changed, the job has got really tough. I know what your thinking, leave, and I aggree, I love my job, and everything it envolves, however customers, as we are now asked to call you, are a lot more demanding. Yesterday, on a 4 hour flight, I had to speak to 23 very unhappy customers, as well as do a duty free service, and all the other paperwork and so on, so I am sorry I did not say mr smith when I charged you for your 200 ciggs, but I was more concerned with getting the service done, so my crew could get a 5 min break in a 12 hour day, and thats not me being unrealistic. Even on turnaround we now get not a moment to sit down.
I do however aggree, their is ever any need to be rude. And I think that with most airlines, if you speak to crew in a nice way, and are only being reasonable, most will do their up most for you.
Last week on boarding a lady got on and went mad because her and her family were split up. 15 minutes she shouted at me, I aggree, its not fair, and I promised I would do something, she was so rude it was amazing. I said wait until everyone is on, and I will get back to you.
10 mins later another lady got on, same problem, but was really nice about it, sorry to troble you.............
Guess which family sat it business class on the way home?
And I told the other lady. I cannot up grade you, if I do, all these passengers are going to think thats the way to do it. She got her seats together.
One last point. I do not mind being called Cabin Crew
Flight crew do not mind being called that
Because thats what we are
Why should a passenger be any different, and I again aggree, your our biggest assett.
Things are hard up their now days, we used to take 16 crew, its now 13, we used to cater loads of spare meals, now, one each, if your lucky, and so many other things have changed, the job has got really tough. I know what your thinking, leave, and I aggree, I love my job, and everything it envolves, however customers, as we are now asked to call you, are a lot more demanding. Yesterday, on a 4 hour flight, I had to speak to 23 very unhappy customers, as well as do a duty free service, and all the other paperwork and so on, so I am sorry I did not say mr smith when I charged you for your 200 ciggs, but I was more concerned with getting the service done, so my crew could get a 5 min break in a 12 hour day, and thats not me being unrealistic. Even on turnaround we now get not a moment to sit down.
I do however aggree, their is ever any need to be rude. And I think that with most airlines, if you speak to crew in a nice way, and are only being reasonable, most will do their up most for you.
Last week on boarding a lady got on and went mad because her and her family were split up. 15 minutes she shouted at me, I aggree, its not fair, and I promised I would do something, she was so rude it was amazing. I said wait until everyone is on, and I will get back to you.
10 mins later another lady got on, same problem, but was really nice about it, sorry to troble you.............
Guess which family sat it business class on the way home?
And I told the other lady. I cannot up grade you, if I do, all these passengers are going to think thats the way to do it. She got her seats together.
One last point. I do not mind being called Cabin Crew
Flight crew do not mind being called that
Because thats what we are
Why should a passenger be any different, and I again aggree, your our biggest assett.
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I travel +/- 100 sectors per year.
Cabin crew do not intimidate me at all.
Most are very professional, some are chatty and some prefer to get on with their job. If they wish to chat, thats fine with me, otherwise I'm just pleasant/polite and let them get on with things.
BA cc in my experience stand out as being professional, well trained and pleasant - also consistent in service delivery .... its always good to travel back to London when tired at the end of a 3 day trip to the US and know what to expect.
Some people find their approach to be a little distant, but perhaps that what I consider professional; the cc are not my friends and I don't expect fawning conversations - but I cannot recall ever a BA cc member being anything other than helpful, polite and considerate.
The least pleasant service I've received is transatlanctic on the larger US carriers, but it was quite survivable. Domestic US cc are usually friendly, so it must be the atlantic air that causes the change
The LCA cc are rather more variable in their approach, although I don't doubt that they operate safely, its just not so polished a performance and I guess that this fits with the operations.
Cabin crew do not intimidate me at all.
Most are very professional, some are chatty and some prefer to get on with their job. If they wish to chat, thats fine with me, otherwise I'm just pleasant/polite and let them get on with things.
BA cc in my experience stand out as being professional, well trained and pleasant - also consistent in service delivery .... its always good to travel back to London when tired at the end of a 3 day trip to the US and know what to expect.
Some people find their approach to be a little distant, but perhaps that what I consider professional; the cc are not my friends and I don't expect fawning conversations - but I cannot recall ever a BA cc member being anything other than helpful, polite and considerate.
The least pleasant service I've received is transatlanctic on the larger US carriers, but it was quite survivable. Domestic US cc are usually friendly, so it must be the atlantic air that causes the change
The LCA cc are rather more variable in their approach, although I don't doubt that they operate safely, its just not so polished a performance and I guess that this fits with the operations.
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As a member of the SLF community and a 20-year expat who has seen the inside of more aircraft than can possibly be conducive to health or sanity, I can honestly say that I am hard-pressed to recall a time when I have been treated discourteously or unprofessionally by either flight or cabin crew (I should perhaps declare an interest and state my wife is ex PAL and Gulf Air CC).
In my experience, most irritations occur through dealings with ground staff, who sometimes operate on a "fire and forget" basis, particularly when acting as handling agent for another airline.
For the most part, when I get on a flight (esp long-haul Business), I want to switch the world off as much as possible, and to that end I tend to avoid too much eye-contact etc with both fellow-pax and crew........It's not shyness or rudeness, just a self-defence mechanism in trying to avoid a situation that can come back to bite you if you're not careful. Flying hell for me is being stuck for 12 hours next to someone who won't leave you in peace, or (as once happened with a US carrier), having a pleasant 5-minute chat with a FA who subsequently comes back and unburdens their life story on you as you crawl slowly over the Pacific............Please feed me and water me, but I don't expect or need to be entertained - that's what the movie is for. I'm far happier just to go into my own little world, while praying that the ubiquitous chap in 12H is somewhere else tonight!
In general, I find being courteous and reasonable invariably gets a like response. This is true regardless of class flown, and most airlines that I fly regularly have excellent cc. Agree with the comments on BA (still the benchmark), and having just spent 3 weeks with Qantas, I would say their staff are up there too. I may be getting old and crotchety, but I get a sense the FE airlines have slipped a bit, and the ME carriers (esp EK and QR) are now better in terms of service.
Beyond that, I would dearly love to get hold of the sadists responsible for the average long-haul economy experience and make them sample the consequences of their constant cost-cutting, space shaving, service-destroying actions.....oh, and while I'm on, why do frequent flyer clubs have so many incomprehensible and unexplained rules?!?
In my experience, most irritations occur through dealings with ground staff, who sometimes operate on a "fire and forget" basis, particularly when acting as handling agent for another airline.
For the most part, when I get on a flight (esp long-haul Business), I want to switch the world off as much as possible, and to that end I tend to avoid too much eye-contact etc with both fellow-pax and crew........It's not shyness or rudeness, just a self-defence mechanism in trying to avoid a situation that can come back to bite you if you're not careful. Flying hell for me is being stuck for 12 hours next to someone who won't leave you in peace, or (as once happened with a US carrier), having a pleasant 5-minute chat with a FA who subsequently comes back and unburdens their life story on you as you crawl slowly over the Pacific............Please feed me and water me, but I don't expect or need to be entertained - that's what the movie is for. I'm far happier just to go into my own little world, while praying that the ubiquitous chap in 12H is somewhere else tonight!
In general, I find being courteous and reasonable invariably gets a like response. This is true regardless of class flown, and most airlines that I fly regularly have excellent cc. Agree with the comments on BA (still the benchmark), and having just spent 3 weeks with Qantas, I would say their staff are up there too. I may be getting old and crotchety, but I get a sense the FE airlines have slipped a bit, and the ME carriers (esp EK and QR) are now better in terms of service.
Beyond that, I would dearly love to get hold of the sadists responsible for the average long-haul economy experience and make them sample the consequences of their constant cost-cutting, space shaving, service-destroying actions.....oh, and while I'm on, why do frequent flyer clubs have so many incomprehensible and unexplained rules?!?
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Killick
I couldn't have said it better myself, although personally I am in the Star Alliance corner. I agree that the FE airlines are slipping, but they are still a notch above the Europeans and streets ahead of the North Americans. AC Executive First used to be my favourite C-class product, but now that one runs the (great) risk of ending up on (old, tired and delapidated) ex-CP metal...it's just not the same.
I also like to think that I am a low maintenance passenger: feed me, water me and get me from A to B without any surprises and I'll be happy.
The only thing, and really the only thing that I cannot stand is being spun a yarn, e.g.
"No you cannot sit here, we have a heavy cargo and the wings might bend" (Air China F/A on a 747-400 when I went to sit in the empty Y-cabin after they had stuck us all together in the rearmost cabin)
"No, there are no duty managers on duty" (NW First Class lounge attendant at DTW)
I couldn't have said it better myself, although personally I am in the Star Alliance corner. I agree that the FE airlines are slipping, but they are still a notch above the Europeans and streets ahead of the North Americans. AC Executive First used to be my favourite C-class product, but now that one runs the (great) risk of ending up on (old, tired and delapidated) ex-CP metal...it's just not the same.
I also like to think that I am a low maintenance passenger: feed me, water me and get me from A to B without any surprises and I'll be happy.
The only thing, and really the only thing that I cannot stand is being spun a yarn, e.g.
"No you cannot sit here, we have a heavy cargo and the wings might bend" (Air China F/A on a 747-400 when I went to sit in the empty Y-cabin after they had stuck us all together in the rearmost cabin)
"No, there are no duty managers on duty" (NW First Class lounge attendant at DTW)
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Well said Killick.
Robmac, you wrote:
Which brings me back to my last comment about the customer keeping you all in business.
I'll ask:
How do you propose to get from Frankfurt to Singapore? Swim? Walk? Drive?
Can you stay in your business,whatever it may be, if you didn't fly?
I guess you need them as much as they need you and frankly,I would put you into "one of those excessively demanding" passenger.
I truly don't understand as to why the pax thinks it is their divine right to be obnoxious since the airfare happens to be the cheapest form of travel.
Disclaimer:
I am not in the aviation industry,just a pax who simply relies on air transportation to get from A to Z at a minimal time frame.
Robmac, you wrote:
Which brings me back to my last comment about the customer keeping you all in business.
I'll ask:
How do you propose to get from Frankfurt to Singapore? Swim? Walk? Drive?
Can you stay in your business,whatever it may be, if you didn't fly?
I guess you need them as much as they need you and frankly,I would put you into "one of those excessively demanding" passenger.
I truly don't understand as to why the pax thinks it is their divine right to be obnoxious since the airfare happens to be the cheapest form of travel.
Disclaimer:
I am not in the aviation industry,just a pax who simply relies on air transportation to get from A to Z at a minimal time frame.
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Nani,
I hope your travel is leisure and not for business if you have such limited understanding of
1. An over capacity market in which carriers are fighting each other to survive.
2. The concept of competitive product advantage in a market where most products are somewhat similar.
I would also like to point out that I probably could do a lot of my business by videophone, as many "afraid to flyers" are now doing, but I go the extra mile for my customers and actually try to physically "be there for them" when they need me, regardless of any danger or inconvenience.
Rgds Rob
I hope your travel is leisure and not for business if you have such limited understanding of
1. An over capacity market in which carriers are fighting each other to survive.
2. The concept of competitive product advantage in a market where most products are somewhat similar.
I would also like to point out that I probably could do a lot of my business by videophone, as many "afraid to flyers" are now doing, but I go the extra mile for my customers and actually try to physically "be there for them" when they need me, regardless of any danger or inconvenience.
Rgds Rob
