cabin safety for babies
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: cornwall
cabin safety for babies
hi,
does anyone know if german airlines follow the same rules for cabin safety as we do in the uk?
ive just travelled with lufthansa with my 19 month old nephew, he didnt have a seat cos hes under two but nothing was provided to secure him for the flight, we were just told by the cabin staff to hold on tight to him! this seems totally out of order to me! what would happen if we had a bad landing or hit a bad batch of turbulance???? ive spoken to the CAA who told me to speak to the german embassy which i did and they gave me an e mail address for the german equivalent of the CAA, ive mailed them but heard nothing as yet. does anyone have any ideas???
does anyone know if german airlines follow the same rules for cabin safety as we do in the uk?
ive just travelled with lufthansa with my 19 month old nephew, he didnt have a seat cos hes under two but nothing was provided to secure him for the flight, we were just told by the cabin staff to hold on tight to him! this seems totally out of order to me! what would happen if we had a bad landing or hit a bad batch of turbulance???? ive spoken to the CAA who told me to speak to the german embassy which i did and they gave me an e mail address for the german equivalent of the CAA, ive mailed them but heard nothing as yet. does anyone have any ideas???
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: UK
Babies are expendable. It is one way to give passengers relief from those objectionably noisy, smelly things. I wince when I see brats having a tantrum and really feel for the people around them. My main concern is not for the baby, but for other people! Maybe not PC these days, but babies and aeroplanes and people in tight confines really do not mix. Good on Lufty!
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
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From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Yes, yes NotSo, many of us think the same but the question is:
What are regulations in German registered aircraft, to stop infants leaving parent's grip and travelling at high speed into NotSoFantastic's face during RTO?
You can argue that, with an RTO, the infant would travel forward and hit the cabin divider or back of next seat, however, if the problem were sudden turbulence that caused the a/c to drop away to one side, then the infant might travel sideways, across the aisle and into you?
What are regulations in German registered aircraft, to stop infants leaving parent's grip and travelling at high speed into NotSoFantastic's face during RTO?
You can argue that, with an RTO, the infant would travel forward and hit the cabin divider or back of next seat, however, if the problem were sudden turbulence that caused the a/c to drop away to one side, then the infant might travel sideways, across the aisle and into you?
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From: UK
An infant extension seat belt is provided to secure the infant to the adult. This must be used at all times the seat belt is on. You say he didn't have a seat because he is under two. That is not strictly correct. He can have a seat with an approved car seat attached to it from age 6 months to age 3 years. The point is you pay for the seat at least at child ticket rates.
In my opinion it ought to be compulsory for all children over the age of 6 months to be seated in an approved seating device and charged as such ( child ticket price). At this time it isn't but the option remains to avail yourself of this facility.
This is the situation in the UK and I would imagine similar rules prevail in Germany. If you didn't have an extension seat belt you should have asked for one. The car seat option is otherwise the way to go although it wont be as cheap as 10% of the fare. I certainly wouldn't want a 19 month old on my lap for any length of time
In my opinion it ought to be compulsory for all children over the age of 6 months to be seated in an approved seating device and charged as such ( child ticket price). At this time it isn't but the option remains to avail yourself of this facility.
This is the situation in the UK and I would imagine similar rules prevail in Germany. If you didn't have an extension seat belt you should have asked for one. The car seat option is otherwise the way to go although it wont be as cheap as 10% of the fare. I certainly wouldn't want a 19 month old on my lap for any length of time
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Paros, Greece
We travelled extensivley when ours was under 2, including LH. As far as I can remember, the infant seat belt thingie seemed to be a perculiarly British thing, although I may be mistaken as sprog always travelled on it's mums lap 
To be honest, I didn't think much of those infany belts anyway - I imagined they'd only provide token protection in all but the mildest of 'incidents' so didn't worry about it. A parent clinging desperatly to it's child would probably be better protection in my opinion.
This was before the days of approved car-seats strapped to the a/c seat. To be honest, with the industry being so safety concious, I can't understand why this hasn't become compulsory already for all ages of baby. Passengers wouldn't like the extra cost of buying an extra seat? True, but if the only other choice were to not travel, they'd soon get used to it.
To be honest, I didn't think much of those infany belts anyway - I imagined they'd only provide token protection in all but the mildest of 'incidents' so didn't worry about it. A parent clinging desperatly to it's child would probably be better protection in my opinion.
This was before the days of approved car-seats strapped to the a/c seat. To be honest, with the industry being so safety concious, I can't understand why this hasn't become compulsory already for all ages of baby. Passengers wouldn't like the extra cost of buying an extra seat? True, but if the only other choice were to not travel, they'd soon get used to it.
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as per the JAAR they should provide you with a infant seat belt. which you know buckeld to your seat belt so it keeps the infant safe in case of sudden stop or god forbid crash or something, any way I am sure as lufthansa is amagor carrier with a safty regulations that are up to standards must have have that rule as well.( but may be I am saying may be) something was not right on your flight
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: cornwall
I was VERY concerned about my nephews safety thank u very much!! wot could we do? refuse to fly? there was nothing that could be done at the time, the cabin attendent told us that there was no means of securing him to either a seat (cos they were all full) or to his mother/father cos they (lufthansa) dont suply seatbelt extensions! i will try speaking to the CAA again!
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Warrington UK
Babies are expendable. It is one way to give passengers relief from those objectionably noisy, smelly things. I wince when I see brats having a tantrum and really feel for the people around them. My main concern is not for the baby, but for other people! Maybe not PC these days, but babies and aeroplanes and people in tight confines really do not mix. Good on Lufty!
You are an absolute bell end! Why should my wife and I be denied the ability to travel with my two children that I love and adore? I am an American living in England. If my kids want to see Grandma in the USA, guess what....WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO FLY!! And how dare you say my kids are expendable! I would really love it if you opened up your big mouth to me about my "objectionably noisy, smelly things". I got news for you pal, babies cry. That is all they know how to do. Most parents try to be polite, but sometimes babies cry and kids will just be kids. If you don't want to hear them, guess what, there is business and first class. Cough up the dough (You must have it because by your posting it is painfully obvious you must not have a family) and go sit where there wont be any kids!
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: France, why do you think I have this ouuuutrageous accent?
Travelled extensively with 4 (!!!) kids. Never had any problem: just stow them on the floor between the seats, with ample provisions of gooey things to eat. Parents feet keeping them from flying around. Noise easily covered by Dad's snoring and stench by Dad's farting.
Only drawback: upgrading to business class is rare.
Only drawback: upgrading to business class is rare.
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From: Europe
knobbygb, infant belts are more capable of withstanding higher g-forces than parental arms. However loving, desperate or otherwise worthy the parent may be.
A baby flying around the cabin at high speed will not only meet a fatal end, it will also pose a real danger to other people.
But even with the balt, the probable jack-knife action of the parental body will not have a good effect on the lap-child.
All in all, belts better than not, but car safety seat even better. All comes down to a question of probablitlities and money really.....
Of course parents should be allowed to travel with their kids. And of course some kids scream so much that they pose a mental health hazard for those forced to share an aircraft cabin with them.
And of course some people should never have been allowed to breed in the first place, since they do not have the first clue of how to socialise their offspring. But that's another matter entirely.....
Had a company pilot, his FA wife and their 3 kids traveling with us a few weeks back. The two eldest were noisy, rambunctious, incredibly rude to the cabin crew and annoyed the other pax. The toddler was allowed to stand on the seats in his muddy booties, scream everytime something wasn't right, crawl through the aisle dfuring food service and had a nappyu change on the seat instead of the specially provided nappy changing table in the loo. The parents watched it all with fond smiles.
Even if it was only Amsterdam-Nice, I'd had enough after 30 minutes. Had a quick visit with the Captain. After which said pilot also had a quick visit with the Captain. He left the cockpit looking a great deal less bushy tailed & the kid's behavious improved dramatically.
No fond goodbyes for the cabin crew when they disembarked though.
Sparklygirl if you really want to find out, why not write to the JAA, their addy is:
THE EUROPEAN JOINT AVIATION AUTHORITIES
Saturnusstraat 8-10 PO Box 3000
2130 KA Hoofddorp The Netherlands
Fax no: (31) (0) 23-5621714
PS YES I have kids. And have traveled with them from when they were 6 weeks old. On staff tickets, so I made bl**dy sure that they never annoyed anyone, always looked impeccable and behaved like little angels. (yes they cried, but parents armed with breats, bottles, pacifiers and what not, so never for long)
They are now teenagers and as a result of life long maternal terror & brainwash, they still go into perfect-traveler mode as soon as they enter an aircraft.
They even look halfway way human when dressed according to staff-travel rules. Flying brings out the best in them, and only on an aircraft do Mr40 and I ever experience that warm glow of having actually managed to raise pleasant human beings instead of incomprehensible savages. (normal present day teenagers)
A baby flying around the cabin at high speed will not only meet a fatal end, it will also pose a real danger to other people.
But even with the balt, the probable jack-knife action of the parental body will not have a good effect on the lap-child.
All in all, belts better than not, but car safety seat even better. All comes down to a question of probablitlities and money really.....
Of course parents should be allowed to travel with their kids. And of course some kids scream so much that they pose a mental health hazard for those forced to share an aircraft cabin with them.
And of course some people should never have been allowed to breed in the first place, since they do not have the first clue of how to socialise their offspring. But that's another matter entirely.....
Had a company pilot, his FA wife and their 3 kids traveling with us a few weeks back. The two eldest were noisy, rambunctious, incredibly rude to the cabin crew and annoyed the other pax. The toddler was allowed to stand on the seats in his muddy booties, scream everytime something wasn't right, crawl through the aisle dfuring food service and had a nappyu change on the seat instead of the specially provided nappy changing table in the loo. The parents watched it all with fond smiles.
Even if it was only Amsterdam-Nice, I'd had enough after 30 minutes. Had a quick visit with the Captain. After which said pilot also had a quick visit with the Captain. He left the cockpit looking a great deal less bushy tailed & the kid's behavious improved dramatically.
No fond goodbyes for the cabin crew when they disembarked though.
Sparklygirl if you really want to find out, why not write to the JAA, their addy is:
THE EUROPEAN JOINT AVIATION AUTHORITIES
Saturnusstraat 8-10 PO Box 3000
2130 KA Hoofddorp The Netherlands
Fax no: (31) (0) 23-5621714
PS YES I have kids. And have traveled with them from when they were 6 weeks old. On staff tickets, so I made bl**dy sure that they never annoyed anyone, always looked impeccable and behaved like little angels. (yes they cried, but parents armed with breats, bottles, pacifiers and what not, so never for long)
They are now teenagers and as a result of life long maternal terror & brainwash, they still go into perfect-traveler mode as soon as they enter an aircraft.
They even look halfway way human when dressed according to staff-travel rules. Flying brings out the best in them, and only on an aircraft do Mr40 and I ever experience that warm glow of having actually managed to raise pleasant human beings instead of incomprehensible savages. (normal present day teenagers)
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
It is true that many folks do not know how to behave in public and when they have children ...
For my first flight ever, aged 9, my elder siblings and I were told by the parents, "You must think of the aircraft cabin, as if you are sitting in the living room of mummy and daddy's friends house."
We therefore knew that only top best behaviour was acceptable. It was a logn trip, from LHR to JNB. In December 1965, the VC-10 (wipes away tear at sweet memory of that sweet aircraft) bounced at Nairobi so the whole trip, including airports, was 18 hours. I did that trip again in my teens and the same rules applied! Now the journey is 10.5 hrs (wheels-to-wheels) and the babies and children never stop!
I recall an FA on LGW~MBJ (Montego Bay) saying how a parent had got onto the flight with a babe in arms and (whilst boarding) had asked "Got any nappies?" Had she looked at the ticket and calculated the number of hours? Had she any idea where the Carribbean is? Perhaps she was just hoping for a freebie?
But, as I say, it is not just that people do not know how to behave in an a/c cabin - they do not know how to get along with the wide variety of folks and situations that we now encounter every day. Flaps, your story of the airline family is sobering.
For my first flight ever, aged 9, my elder siblings and I were told by the parents, "You must think of the aircraft cabin, as if you are sitting in the living room of mummy and daddy's friends house."
We therefore knew that only top best behaviour was acceptable. It was a logn trip, from LHR to JNB. In December 1965, the VC-10 (wipes away tear at sweet memory of that sweet aircraft) bounced at Nairobi so the whole trip, including airports, was 18 hours. I did that trip again in my teens and the same rules applied! Now the journey is 10.5 hrs (wheels-to-wheels) and the babies and children never stop!
I recall an FA on LGW~MBJ (Montego Bay) saying how a parent had got onto the flight with a babe in arms and (whilst boarding) had asked "Got any nappies?" Had she looked at the ticket and calculated the number of hours? Had she any idea where the Carribbean is? Perhaps she was just hoping for a freebie?
But, as I say, it is not just that people do not know how to behave in an a/c cabin - they do not know how to get along with the wide variety of folks and situations that we now encounter every day. Flaps, your story of the airline family is sobering.
mostly harmless
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: axis of chocolate
We have travelled on a couple of carriers, including SAS, with our baby in an approved car seat. No problems to anyone.
When travelling British Airways (737), we were informed by CC that the car seat could not be used according to CAA regulations because it would impede emergency evacuation. A seatbelt extension was provided.
With our model car seat in particular, releasing the baby could be done in a very few seconds. Obviously, rules have to apply to all models - CC can't accept one car seat and refuse another.
Are car seats really forbidden or is there a misunderstanding?
answer=42
When travelling British Airways (737), we were informed by CC that the car seat could not be used according to CAA regulations because it would impede emergency evacuation. A seatbelt extension was provided.
With our model car seat in particular, releasing the baby could be done in a very few seconds. Obviously, rules have to apply to all models - CC can't accept one car seat and refuse another.
Are car seats really forbidden or is there a misunderstanding?
answer=42
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 368
Likes: 46
From: Mk. 1 desk at present...
Last year did a bunch of flying with very young baby, so grandma would have a chance to spend some time with him before she passed away 
One thing struck me: for very small infants, it seems to me a securely-attached basinette or 'skycot' (affixed to the bulkhead) would provide the best protection for an infant during all stages of flight - there are belts and a net over the top, the whole thing is padded etc etc - and yet we were forbidden to use the cot until in the cruise, and supposed to cease using it during turbulence!
Seems a lot safer to have baby in the cot, strapped down and further prevented from becoming a missile by the mesh, than having him on parents lap, however secured.
No question of impeding exit in event of RTO etc. - there's just us in our row, and frankly it's our choice if we want to risk impeding our own exit slightly by using the cot.
R 1
One thing struck me: for very small infants, it seems to me a securely-attached basinette or 'skycot' (affixed to the bulkhead) would provide the best protection for an infant during all stages of flight - there are belts and a net over the top, the whole thing is padded etc etc - and yet we were forbidden to use the cot until in the cruise, and supposed to cease using it during turbulence!
Seems a lot safer to have baby in the cot, strapped down and further prevented from becoming a missile by the mesh, than having him on parents lap, however secured.
No question of impeding exit in event of RTO etc. - there's just us in our row, and frankly it's our choice if we want to risk impeding our own exit slightly by using the cot.
R 1
Free Man, Not a Number
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Well here of course.
We did UK to Nice twice this year and will be going again over Christmas. Shortest person will be 1 and a bit so will probably get a lap extension belt again. Only flown BA and EasyJet and always been given a belt and priority boarding.
I noticed that BA attempted to group the families with short children together. Yes he cried but milk and pacifiers did the job. You can always ask to leave the plane if you don't like babies.
I noticed that BA attempted to group the families with short children together. Yes he cried but milk and pacifiers did the job. You can always ask to leave the plane if you don't like babies.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Location, Location
The old-style USSR Aeroflot had swinging cradles that clipped to the luggage rails (overhead lockers being considered a decadent capitalist luxury). Very effective at swinging the lil' darlings to sleep, but the stuff of nightmares for H&S!
Come to think of it, they're probably still in use on internal flights - anyone been over there recently??
Come to think of it, they're probably still in use on internal flights - anyone been over there recently??
Supercalifragilistic
expialidocious
expialidocious
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Essex, UK
USA
Flew in the USA last year and the very assertive cabin crew sitting opposite us for T/O & landing kept telling a British mother to keep the baby held in her arms facing away from her body with comments like "If we stop suddenly and you will bend and cause your child serious injury."
This (no doubt sensible) advice did not go down well with the mother who had requested a seat belt and been treated like she was mad by the crew member who was insistant (verging on saying the mother was making it up!) that no carrier anywhere offered the child extension belt the mother was requesting. " I ahve been flying for 30 years etc..."
She was still disbelieving even when several Brits withing earshot backed up the Mother!
Not the most customer friendly performance ever!
Never had that sort of crew on international flights with this ariline, I wonder if they get "saved" for US domestic?
This (no doubt sensible) advice did not go down well with the mother who had requested a seat belt and been treated like she was mad by the crew member who was insistant (verging on saying the mother was making it up!) that no carrier anywhere offered the child extension belt the mother was requesting. " I ahve been flying for 30 years etc..."
She was still disbelieving even when several Brits withing earshot backed up the Mother!
Not the most customer friendly performance ever!
Never had that sort of crew on international flights with this ariline, I wonder if they get "saved" for US domestic?
Joined: Sep 2001
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 2,783
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From: Toronto
Rules Vary for Car Seats
The car seat is the best option. There have been GA crashes where infants in car seats survived when adults did not; so they do work.
Each country can have different regulations and each carrier can interpret them differently. Some authorities require the seat by the window so that it does not impede others from exiting.
Before booking, contact the carrier's customer service to see if their infant car seat policy allows car seats. It may help to have them fax it to you in case the cabin crew has other ideas.
When booking, make it plain that a car seat will be used, especially as a seat belt extension may be needed to secure the car seat.
If they don't allow car seats, make it clear that you will be using another carrier. If this changes their minds, insist on a fax.
Each country can have different regulations and each carrier can interpret them differently. Some authorities require the seat by the window so that it does not impede others from exiting.
Before booking, contact the carrier's customer service to see if their infant car seat policy allows car seats. It may help to have them fax it to you in case the cabin crew has other ideas.
When booking, make it plain that a car seat will be used, especially as a seat belt extension may be needed to secure the car seat.
If they don't allow car seats, make it clear that you will be using another carrier. If this changes their minds, insist on a fax.