cabin safety for babies
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Didn't see the swinging cot on the Siberair IL-86 from Novosibirsk to Moscow but that was 4.5 yrs ago.
In the U.S. the seatbelt extensions (Belly Belts) and booster seats are verboten. See the Federal Aviation Administration Civil Aeromedical Institute web site (start at faa.gov or use Google or some other search engine) and be prepared to get the wits scared out of you with video of 3yo size crash test dummies in 16G decelerations. The car seats come right out, up and off the aircraft seats so much that in many cases the child would be smashed right into the seat in front, especially in coach.
The way in U.S. is car child safety seat that meets federal motor vehicle safety standards is used in the aircraft. When you use car seat it must go in the window seat and is not allowed in the exit isle (obviously) On the lap is allowed, but there is no way a parent can hold a baby, much less a child in a 16G crash. After the child is 40# can use the aircraft seatbelt.
As for conduct, you are on your own. Lots of snacks, lots of toys, soft cuddlies, majbe they 'll go to sleep. If teething, I found a finger of Bacardi Dark works well on the oldest, middle didn't like it at all, and the youngest was partial to Johnny Walker Black.
In the U.S. the seatbelt extensions (Belly Belts) and booster seats are verboten. See the Federal Aviation Administration Civil Aeromedical Institute web site (start at faa.gov or use Google or some other search engine) and be prepared to get the wits scared out of you with video of 3yo size crash test dummies in 16G decelerations. The car seats come right out, up and off the aircraft seats so much that in many cases the child would be smashed right into the seat in front, especially in coach.
The way in U.S. is car child safety seat that meets federal motor vehicle safety standards is used in the aircraft. When you use car seat it must go in the window seat and is not allowed in the exit isle (obviously) On the lap is allowed, but there is no way a parent can hold a baby, much less a child in a 16G crash. After the child is 40# can use the aircraft seatbelt.
As for conduct, you are on your own. Lots of snacks, lots of toys, soft cuddlies, majbe they 'll go to sleep. If teething, I found a finger of Bacardi Dark works well on the oldest, middle didn't like it at all, and the youngest was partial to Johnny Walker Black.
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i am a flight attendant in australia and our company regulations state that all lap infants be restrained by an infant seatbelt, which is attached to the parents seatbelt. (i dont even know if it is our CASA law, just our company policy.
Parents also have the option to purchase a seat and provide their own approved car seat but it rarely happens - either for lack of knowledge or not wanting to pay the extra ... the latter i think.
I am agreeing with all who have said it should be made a law. No matter how much you love your child, there is little chance of holding on to it in a crash.. infant seatbelts wil probably protect somewhat against clear air turbulence (if they are nice and tight which they rarely are) and some sudden breaking/minor crash but also, i can see infants flying out of those in an accident too.
The absolute ideal situation is where the airline provides approved car seats at a minimal charge (or free) for the infant.
And they should make it law worldwide to have ALL pax regardless of age or size to occupy a seat.. if they are infants they must use the provided car seat (or bring their own), having infants sit on laps should be banned.
Car seats are proven to be much safer than lap belts, the child is literally harnessed in like the crew, i think the child would have a higher survival rate than the parents in some situations.
The child seats are usually fitted on a window seat, so as not to hinder an evacuation, and the only other requirements i can think of is that they are not fitted in an exit row.
If you fly on an airline and you cant bring your car seat or the airline wont provide one (either dont fly with them!) or wear a papoose thing that is strapped to your body, with the baby inside. some designs have shoulder straps for the baby that prevent it from flying up and out.
That is the only thing that annoys me about my job, seeing infants not secured safetly enough. there are stricter laws about stowing your carry on baggage for goodness sake! If i was ever put in a position of power,that is one of the issues i would address and make mandatory. Busses are another thing but that is a different story also....
Parents also have the option to purchase a seat and provide their own approved car seat but it rarely happens - either for lack of knowledge or not wanting to pay the extra ... the latter i think.
I am agreeing with all who have said it should be made a law. No matter how much you love your child, there is little chance of holding on to it in a crash.. infant seatbelts wil probably protect somewhat against clear air turbulence (if they are nice and tight which they rarely are) and some sudden breaking/minor crash but also, i can see infants flying out of those in an accident too.
The absolute ideal situation is where the airline provides approved car seats at a minimal charge (or free) for the infant.
And they should make it law worldwide to have ALL pax regardless of age or size to occupy a seat.. if they are infants they must use the provided car seat (or bring their own), having infants sit on laps should be banned.
Car seats are proven to be much safer than lap belts, the child is literally harnessed in like the crew, i think the child would have a higher survival rate than the parents in some situations.
The child seats are usually fitted on a window seat, so as not to hinder an evacuation, and the only other requirements i can think of is that they are not fitted in an exit row.
If you fly on an airline and you cant bring your car seat or the airline wont provide one (either dont fly with them!) or wear a papoose thing that is strapped to your body, with the baby inside. some designs have shoulder straps for the baby that prevent it from flying up and out.
That is the only thing that annoys me about my job, seeing infants not secured safetly enough. there are stricter laws about stowing your carry on baggage for goodness sake! If i was ever put in a position of power,that is one of the issues i would address and make mandatory. Busses are another thing but that is a different story also....
Last edited by ShesGreatintheGalley; 18th Oct 2003 at 18:45.
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Iron City
No, the IL-86 didn't have them even back then - love the air vents in the back of the seat though - true soviet ingenuity and far more effective than ones in the ceiling! I saw the cradles in IL-62 and Tu-154.
No, the IL-86 didn't have them even back then - love the air vents in the back of the seat though - true soviet ingenuity and far more effective than ones in the ceiling! I saw the cradles in IL-62 and Tu-154.
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Never been on the Il-62 or Tu-154. Intersting designs, same laws of phytsics but different solutions. Must admit that an air vent in the ceiling of the IL-86 has along way to go to get air down to the pax, so the seatback solution was most logical, would love to see all the plumbing. Liked the Il-86 entry from lower port side, past the "check room" and up the "grand staircase". Make all bagage carry on...might limit the amount of junk people take if they have to carry it all. Lots like MILAIR C-130s strap your seabag to the pallet on the ramp.
ShesGreatinthe galley has it all in one message. The only thing I would add to his/her post is that installing a car seat in the aircraft is a little easier than in the car with their silly seatbelt/shoulder belt combination that requires the steel locking clip (but don't forget it because you''ll need it in the rental car at the other end...and when you get home) but having to put it in the window seat makes things a little tight.
The drill in our family has evolved so:
Dad goes first down the aisle with the seat and a backpack, gets to the appropriate seat and puts the car seat in place, gives backpack to #1 daughter to stow. In putting the car seat in it helps to kneal on the car seat to get it really down into the nice padded, comfortable (?) A/C seat, thread the A/C seatbelt and get it fastened really really tight (learned this trick from a Delta cabin crew). Dad or #1 son sit next to child & child seat and someone else draws the short straw and gets the aisle seat. Person in aisle seat responsible for 4.7 toilet runs per hour of flight. Other family members do not sit near child, pretend they don't know the other three and quietly pass the time. Lucky them.
From seeing the CAMI tests It appears that the car seats have a real problem being in tight enough to not displace forward and smash into the seat in front. Possibly some kind of ridgid wedge (see the movies and there is also a powerpoint presentation on the site) or removing the seat cushion all together (hey, the car seat is already padded) to get a better car seat A/C seat interface would be the key here.
ShesGreatinthe galley has it all in one message. The only thing I would add to his/her post is that installing a car seat in the aircraft is a little easier than in the car with their silly seatbelt/shoulder belt combination that requires the steel locking clip (but don't forget it because you''ll need it in the rental car at the other end...and when you get home) but having to put it in the window seat makes things a little tight.
The drill in our family has evolved so:
Dad goes first down the aisle with the seat and a backpack, gets to the appropriate seat and puts the car seat in place, gives backpack to #1 daughter to stow. In putting the car seat in it helps to kneal on the car seat to get it really down into the nice padded, comfortable (?) A/C seat, thread the A/C seatbelt and get it fastened really really tight (learned this trick from a Delta cabin crew). Dad or #1 son sit next to child & child seat and someone else draws the short straw and gets the aisle seat. Person in aisle seat responsible for 4.7 toilet runs per hour of flight. Other family members do not sit near child, pretend they don't know the other three and quietly pass the time. Lucky them.
From seeing the CAMI tests It appears that the car seats have a real problem being in tight enough to not displace forward and smash into the seat in front. Possibly some kind of ridgid wedge (see the movies and there is also a powerpoint presentation on the site) or removing the seat cushion all together (hey, the car seat is already padded) to get a better car seat A/C seat interface would be the key here.
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We travelled with our one year old recently for a holiday.
Were provided with a lap restraint which looks pretty ineffective. I think generally I would prefer to pay for a seat and use the car seat type solution from a safety perspective. Provided of course the flight element could be satisfactorily decoupled form the cost of a package holiday.
What does get to me though is that on all the occasions when I have travelled with her the pushchair has been returned to us at the aircraft steps (or airbridge) when down route. Coming back into the UK it always get sent with the aggage. So on return to LHR we had to walk about 3/4 mile carrying her and because the handlers missed the arrival had to wait 1hr plus in the baggage hall with thousands of others. Surely it can't be that difficult to offload these items first?
Were provided with a lap restraint which looks pretty ineffective. I think generally I would prefer to pay for a seat and use the car seat type solution from a safety perspective. Provided of course the flight element could be satisfactorily decoupled form the cost of a package holiday.
What does get to me though is that on all the occasions when I have travelled with her the pushchair has been returned to us at the aircraft steps (or airbridge) when down route. Coming back into the UK it always get sent with the aggage. So on return to LHR we had to walk about 3/4 mile carrying her and because the handlers missed the arrival had to wait 1hr plus in the baggage hall with thousands of others. Surely it can't be that difficult to offload these items first?
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My experience paxing with 3 kids in the last decade is that we got the seat belt extensions about half the time - the rest we had to hold the infant and hope for the best.
Youngest son also once travelled in a bassinet suspended from the overhead lockers on an Air France 747-400. For the return flight I was particularly keen that he be in a bulkhead bassinet, as the first one was just under an aircon outlet, and the cigarette smoke from the smokers was being recirculated and blasted onto him.
cur
Youngest son also once travelled in a bassinet suspended from the overhead lockers on an Air France 747-400. For the return flight I was particularly keen that he be in a bulkhead bassinet, as the first one was just under an aircon outlet, and the cigarette smoke from the smokers was being recirculated and blasted onto him.
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cainanUK
Perhaps you are the one who should upgrade to Business or 1st Class. Unless of course you think you and and your family have the right to disturb 400 passengers because "If they don't like it, they should upgrade'.
Terrible attitude. I'm so sick of the minority trying to make rules for the majority. If your kids are going to scream and cry and annoy the rest of the passengers for a 12 hour flight, you need to either drive or take the train.
And yes, I have 2 kids aged 19 and 14 now, and like FF so elequently stated, I told my kids at a very early age that flying was indeed a priviledge and nothing less than their best behavour would be accepted.
Newarksmells
Terrible attitude. I'm so sick of the minority trying to make rules for the majority. If your kids are going to scream and cry and annoy the rest of the passengers for a 12 hour flight, you need to either drive or take the train.
And yes, I have 2 kids aged 19 and 14 now, and like FF so elequently stated, I told my kids at a very early age that flying was indeed a priviledge and nothing less than their best behavour would be accepted.
Newarksmells
mostly harmless
Is the following a fair summary:
There is a consensus on the forum that car seats, especially when child is facing backward or when a decent interface with the aircraft seat is provided, is safest.
Belly strap is banned in the US, although there is no video comparing belly strap with 'child being held'.
British Airways, quoting CAA rules, bans car seats and imposes belly straps.
Somehow I doubt that a papoose would be permitted if a car seat is banned.
Anyone from Nigel's bunch care to advise? Faxing each time I travel with baby is perhaps not the ideal approach.
answer=42
There is a consensus on the forum that car seats, especially when child is facing backward or when a decent interface with the aircraft seat is provided, is safest.
Belly strap is banned in the US, although there is no video comparing belly strap with 'child being held'.
British Airways, quoting CAA rules, bans car seats and imposes belly straps.
Somehow I doubt that a papoose would be permitted if a car seat is banned.
Anyone from Nigel's bunch care to advise? Faxing each time I travel with baby is perhaps not the ideal approach.
answer=42
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I have traveled with my children by air since they were 6-8 months old. Proper planning; food, toys etc, led to predictable performance. But even the best disciplined child gets airsick, uncomfortable, or queasy or fidgity. When that happens, I apply love and discipline to keep the child within acceptable behavioral parameters. I can spot the true parents around me on the plane, they are the ones who will step up to help with supplies, an extra hand or whatever if asked. The breeders on the other hand scowl and complain to CC about "that unruly child" God has special plans for those people, I think.
My favorite traveling experiances revolve around child-friendly airline staff who proactively extend every courtesy available to me to make the flying experiance for me and my children the best it can be. Sometimes, this means the bulkhead seats, once it required first class seating on an overbooked flight
Needless to say it took awhile to convince my children that FC was not going to be our standard of travel hence forth. I'd rather fly with an unruly child on board than an unruly adult , but that's just me
My favorite traveling experiances revolve around child-friendly airline staff who proactively extend every courtesy available to me to make the flying experiance for me and my children the best it can be. Sometimes, this means the bulkhead seats, once it required first class seating on an overbooked flight
Needless to say it took awhile to convince my children that FC was not going to be our standard of travel hence forth. I'd rather fly with an unruly child on board than an unruly adult , but that's just me
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answer=42
BA doesn't ban car seats it just has requirements of them.
They must have a integral shell type frame, (not bolted to the outside of the shell),
It needs to fit in the aircraft seat and not overhang it.
When the aircraft belt is fitted through the back of the seat , the buckle mustn't touch the seat frame.
The belts of the seat must be minimum 1" in width and be of a five point harness type, with a single latch quick release.
If it's the really fancy recliner type it can be reclined but must sit upright for takeoff landing and turbulence.
If it has a table this must be removed for take off and landing.
It sounds like a lot of rules but many good quality car seats do fit these rules.
They can't be fitted to exit rows or in the seat row forward and aft of the exit rows.
If the baby is less than 6months old it must sit on a lap for takeoff, landing and turbulence (don't ask me why I don't understand it either.) but it can use an approved car seat during the cruise.
BA doesn't ban car seats it just has requirements of them.
They must have a integral shell type frame, (not bolted to the outside of the shell),
It needs to fit in the aircraft seat and not overhang it.
When the aircraft belt is fitted through the back of the seat , the buckle mustn't touch the seat frame.
The belts of the seat must be minimum 1" in width and be of a five point harness type, with a single latch quick release.
If it's the really fancy recliner type it can be reclined but must sit upright for takeoff landing and turbulence.
If it has a table this must be removed for take off and landing.
It sounds like a lot of rules but many good quality car seats do fit these rules.
They can't be fitted to exit rows or in the seat row forward and aft of the exit rows.
If the baby is less than 6months old it must sit on a lap for takeoff, landing and turbulence (don't ask me why I don't understand it either.) but it can use an approved car seat during the cruise.
mostly harmless
mainfrog2
Interesting post. As a CC, could you in practice accept one child seat and reject another? Our seat in question does conform to the rules as you describe but for one reason or another was not allowed to be used.
Is there a public document that describes the rules that I can perhaps use to try to persuade?
answer=42
Interesting post. As a CC, could you in practice accept one child seat and reject another? Our seat in question does conform to the rules as you describe but for one reason or another was not allowed to be used.
Is there a public document that describes the rules that I can perhaps use to try to persuade?
answer=42
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Answer=42
Yes, as CC we could accept one seat over another. However if it fitted all BA's requirements then it would be churlish of us to refuse it's use.
Sorry no public document and the website doesn't help very much at all. It mentions Britax seats which are available. Here's a link to what is on BA's website.BA.com baby/infant seats
Did a bit of trawling through the CAA website and found this pdf file it goes into detail what the seat requirements are, you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader for this though.CAA & child safety seats
Hope this all helps for you.
Yes, as CC we could accept one seat over another. However if it fitted all BA's requirements then it would be churlish of us to refuse it's use.
Sorry no public document and the website doesn't help very much at all. It mentions Britax seats which are available. Here's a link to what is on BA's website.BA.com baby/infant seats
Did a bit of trawling through the CAA website and found this pdf file it goes into detail what the seat requirements are, you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader for this though.CAA & child safety seats
Hope this all helps for you.
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Just to bring this topic back to life. Has anyone experiance of child restraint vests?
such as
http://www.urchin.co.uk/acatalog/Holiday.html
This one is FAA aproved. Anyone know of a CAA aproved version?
such as
http://www.urchin.co.uk/acatalog/Holiday.html
This one is FAA aproved. Anyone know of a CAA aproved version?
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Apparently under Icelandic CAA rules - it is not compusory for parents to use an extension seatbelt during take off / landing for an infant under two years................maybe its the same in Germany.
mostly harmless
Some more info and a question.
Found out the hard way that seat belt extensions are banned by law on Lufty and all other German carriers. So what's compulsory in the UK is banned in Germany and the USA.
I can accept that set belt extensions are not ideal but surely they're better than a parental arm.
Can anyone please tell me what Air France's policy on extensions / child seats is? Family=42 has a transatlantic flight coming up.
Not getting at Lufty - they have been very good to me on more than one occasion recently.
answer=42
Found out the hard way that seat belt extensions are banned by law on Lufty and all other German carriers. So what's compulsory in the UK is banned in Germany and the USA.
I can accept that set belt extensions are not ideal but surely they're better than a parental arm.
Can anyone please tell me what Air France's policy on extensions / child seats is? Family=42 has a transatlantic flight coming up.
Not getting at Lufty - they have been very good to me on more than one occasion recently.
answer=42
