Can someone please explain this enormous wastage?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: India
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can someone please explain this enormous wastage?
For some years now, most of my airline tickets have come in the form of a booklet of cards with a magnetic strip on the reverse side and a perforation which allows you to detach a stub on the right side which doubles as a boarding pass.
Clearly, the idea is that this type of ticket has to be inserted into a reader/printer which then spits out the separated stub imprinted with a seat and gate number respectively.
However, in 99% of all cases I've been returned the complete ticket/stub form with a separate boarding pass attached.
Given that airlines keep on complaining about low margins, surely this obvious wastage (double costs for paper/printing etc.) of a high-volume stationery item should be addressed - quite apart from the environmental/recycling issue.
Can anyone shed a light on this?
Clearly, the idea is that this type of ticket has to be inserted into a reader/printer which then spits out the separated stub imprinted with a seat and gate number respectively.
However, in 99% of all cases I've been returned the complete ticket/stub form with a separate boarding pass attached.
Given that airlines keep on complaining about low margins, surely this obvious wastage (double costs for paper/printing etc.) of a high-volume stationery item should be addressed - quite apart from the environmental/recycling issue.
Can anyone shed a light on this?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First off, Alpha Leader, I can offer an explanation - it is sheer laziness, pure and simple!
The Tickets you refer to are known as "ATB stock" (Automated Ticket and Boarding Pass) and the magnetic strip on the obverse side contains all the data pertaining to your booking.
A complete set of these tickets (1 Outward Coupon, 1 Return Coupon, 1 Customer Receipt, 1 Audit Copy, 1 Accounts Copy and 1 Credit Card Signature Slip) costs in the region of £40 - stand back and gasp in amazement!!! Additionally, each separate Boarding Pass (of the Blue Envelope type with the magnetic strip that BA use) costs us 50p.
THIS IS THE REASON AIRLINES WANT YOU ON E-TICKETS SO BADLY even though we know we're losing revenue through e-ticket fiddles!
Now, as far as British Airways is concerned:
1. The "ATB" ticket can be fed into the Self-Service Check-In machines which makes use of the Boarding Card stub on the end of the ticket.
2. Most of our check-in desks have a computer keyboard with a "swipe" mechanism. The magnetic strip on the ATB's can be swiped, which then starts off the check-in process for us. At the end of the transaction, we can refuse the prompt "Print Boarding Pass" and enter "Front Feedc ATB Pass". We can then feed your ticket into the printer and print it as a Boarding Pass!
Unfortunately, this involves a handful of extra keystrokes and the computer defaults automatically to "Print Boarding Pass" so it's much easier just to hit the Return Key. Additionally, for the handful of people (like Bealine) that have practised this in the past, you find:
(a) Security Personnel don't always recognise it as a Boarding Pass and turn your client back.
(b) Swiping mechanisms quickly become dirty and fail.
(c) Printers easily become jammed when front-feeding and then fail to work on "normal" transactions.
(d) The procedure fails to work if a booking has been changed.
(e) Some suppliers have thoughtlessly over-printed the relevant area on the Boarding Pass Stub with the legend "CHECK-IN REQUIRED" so the details our printer supplies can't be read.
(f) American Airlines issue similar tickets but without the Magnetic Stripe so these can't be read!
From a company point of view, British Airways could probably save £500,000 or more each year if we all adopted the "Front Feed" practise and, you're dead right, the ecology would benefit too - that's why I always nicknamed it as the "Tree-Saver Boarding Pass!"
As from tomorrow, I'm back to "front feeding"!!!!
The Tickets you refer to are known as "ATB stock" (Automated Ticket and Boarding Pass) and the magnetic strip on the obverse side contains all the data pertaining to your booking.
A complete set of these tickets (1 Outward Coupon, 1 Return Coupon, 1 Customer Receipt, 1 Audit Copy, 1 Accounts Copy and 1 Credit Card Signature Slip) costs in the region of £40 - stand back and gasp in amazement!!! Additionally, each separate Boarding Pass (of the Blue Envelope type with the magnetic strip that BA use) costs us 50p.
THIS IS THE REASON AIRLINES WANT YOU ON E-TICKETS SO BADLY even though we know we're losing revenue through e-ticket fiddles!
Now, as far as British Airways is concerned:
1. The "ATB" ticket can be fed into the Self-Service Check-In machines which makes use of the Boarding Card stub on the end of the ticket.
2. Most of our check-in desks have a computer keyboard with a "swipe" mechanism. The magnetic strip on the ATB's can be swiped, which then starts off the check-in process for us. At the end of the transaction, we can refuse the prompt "Print Boarding Pass" and enter "Front Feedc ATB Pass". We can then feed your ticket into the printer and print it as a Boarding Pass!
Unfortunately, this involves a handful of extra keystrokes and the computer defaults automatically to "Print Boarding Pass" so it's much easier just to hit the Return Key. Additionally, for the handful of people (like Bealine) that have practised this in the past, you find:
(a) Security Personnel don't always recognise it as a Boarding Pass and turn your client back.
(b) Swiping mechanisms quickly become dirty and fail.
(c) Printers easily become jammed when front-feeding and then fail to work on "normal" transactions.
(d) The procedure fails to work if a booking has been changed.
(e) Some suppliers have thoughtlessly over-printed the relevant area on the Boarding Pass Stub with the legend "CHECK-IN REQUIRED" so the details our printer supplies can't be read.
(f) American Airlines issue similar tickets but without the Magnetic Stripe so these can't be read!
From a company point of view, British Airways could probably save £500,000 or more each year if we all adopted the "Front Feed" practise and, you're dead right, the ecology would benefit too - that's why I always nicknamed it as the "Tree-Saver Boarding Pass!"
As from tomorrow, I'm back to "front feeding"!!!!
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bealine
Flying BA from ORK to dests via LHR means I don't get an e-ticket option, although if I book on the EI website ORK-LHR only I *can* use their e-ticket.
Computer compatibility I suppose.
However, if it costs £40 for a full ticket [probably more if four flights rather than two like the ones I get], the £5 discount usually offered for e-ticketing is quite a margin
Flying BA from ORK to dests via LHR means I don't get an e-ticket option, although if I book on the EI website ORK-LHR only I *can* use their e-ticket.
Computer compatibility I suppose.
However, if it costs £40 for a full ticket [probably more if four flights rather than two like the ones I get], the £5 discount usually offered for e-ticketing is quite a margin
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Paros, Greece
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to be cynical bealine, but £40? Really?
I can imagine that they're expensive, but the 50p per piece you quote for boarding cards seems more reasonable. I'd thus expect a full set of ATB to be perhaps £3 or £4 at the very most.
You are in a position to know, so I suppose I should believe you, but why so much? I mean, nearly every airline ticket I bought over the last couple of years was less than £40 discounting the tax - most were BA or BMI tickets from MAN to LHR at between £10 and £32 each return before tax. I bought over 25 of these and until recently they were all ATB. Where's the profit (although I realise you could ask the same question even before the extra £40 cost was considered
)
Are you absolutley sure you haven't been fed a line by the penny-pinchers to get you to use less of them?
Apologies if I'm wrong (as usual).
I can imagine that they're expensive, but the 50p per piece you quote for boarding cards seems more reasonable. I'd thus expect a full set of ATB to be perhaps £3 or £4 at the very most.
You are in a position to know, so I suppose I should believe you, but why so much? I mean, nearly every airline ticket I bought over the last couple of years was less than £40 discounting the tax - most were BA or BMI tickets from MAN to LHR at between £10 and £32 each return before tax. I bought over 25 of these and until recently they were all ATB. Where's the profit (although I realise you could ask the same question even before the extra £40 cost was considered
)Are you absolutley sure you haven't been fed a line by the penny-pinchers to get you to use less of them?
Apologies if I'm wrong (as usual).
Supercalifragilistic
expialidocious
expialidocious
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why it costs so much...
Before I start, I'm just SLF, so anyone in the know please jump in and correct what follows.
I understand that a lot of the cost comes in because all of these bits of paper need to be manually reconciled for inter and intra airline billing and paying the travel agents who issued the tickets. e.g. code shares, tickets boght in one country and changed in another where a supplement is paid, checking used legs against paid legs, refunds for part used tickets all need to be netted off.
Obvioulsy if it were all eletronic and on compatible systems this would be able to get less costly, but getting there will cost a lot, and at the end of the day passengers like tangible proof of thier imminent travel as opposed to a locator number.
At one point Swiss air were flying all the ticket stubs to an Indian IT company for entry into the reconcilliation system in order to reduce labour costs, not sure if they still do - perhaps others have followed suit?
You might find some details of the systems here : http://www.iata.org/idfs/settlement.htm
I've not read it, it did not look that gripping!
I understand that a lot of the cost comes in because all of these bits of paper need to be manually reconciled for inter and intra airline billing and paying the travel agents who issued the tickets. e.g. code shares, tickets boght in one country and changed in another where a supplement is paid, checking used legs against paid legs, refunds for part used tickets all need to be netted off.
Obvioulsy if it were all eletronic and on compatible systems this would be able to get less costly, but getting there will cost a lot, and at the end of the day passengers like tangible proof of thier imminent travel as opposed to a locator number.
At one point Swiss air were flying all the ticket stubs to an Indian IT company for entry into the reconcilliation system in order to reduce labour costs, not sure if they still do - perhaps others have followed suit?
You might find some details of the systems here : http://www.iata.org/idfs/settlement.htm
I've not read it, it did not look that gripping!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fantasy Island
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also thought the price was more like £5.
That's why when doing staff travel, you can help save the airline money by printing multiple round-trips on a single ticket, rather than on seperate tickets.
That's why when doing staff travel, you can help save the airline money by printing multiple round-trips on a single ticket, rather than on seperate tickets.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nottingham,UK
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and the computer defaults automatically to "Print Boarding Pass" so it's much easier just to hit the Return Key
Everyone will be so used to hitting return that they'll find it really hard to print the boarding cards without a conscious effort.
I reckon this would take about an hour for a programmer to implement and test and probably considerably longer to go through whatever change management process exists.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The £5.00 cost refers to the actual cost of the blank stationery sets. The £40.00 includes:
1. Capital expenditure over 10 years of unique Mannesmann Tally ticket printers (£20,000 each) in all BA reservations centres. These machines were also supplied to Travel Agents at reduced prices, subsidised by BA. Consumables (printer ribbons) etc at grossly inflated prices (£50 each) because these machines are unique.
2. Labour costs in administering stock control, coupon reconciliation etc., Securicor (or Group 4) delivery of blank stocks etc. etc.
Granted, the £40.00 price tag is a glib "throwaway" line from a Reservations Training Course in the dim and distant past but the true costs must be fairly close.
1. Capital expenditure over 10 years of unique Mannesmann Tally ticket printers (£20,000 each) in all BA reservations centres. These machines were also supplied to Travel Agents at reduced prices, subsidised by BA. Consumables (printer ribbons) etc at grossly inflated prices (£50 each) because these machines are unique.
2. Labour costs in administering stock control, coupon reconciliation etc., Securicor (or Group 4) delivery of blank stocks etc. etc.
Granted, the £40.00 price tag is a glib "throwaway" line from a Reservations Training Course in the dim and distant past but the true costs must be fairly close.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Paros, Greece
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That sounds a lot more plausible having taken everything into account. Having worked in IT I know what you mean about overpriced consumables for 'unique' printers etc. £50 is NOT expensive comapred to some! Still, I'd be wary about anything I'm told by trainers. Most these days seem to have just read the course themselves for the first time the night before (apologies to the few professionals still out there).
I've always wondered why some rail companies are now printing tickets on similar stock when the guard, sorry 'Train Manager' still has one of the old 'hole punch-style' machines for marking tickets. Hmmm... E-tickets for trains. Now that WOULD be chaos!
I've always wondered why some rail companies are now printing tickets on similar stock when the guard, sorry 'Train Manager' still has one of the old 'hole punch-style' machines for marking tickets. Hmmm... E-tickets for trains. Now that WOULD be chaos!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: EGKK
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the quantities that BA order from their suppliers, the cost per individual ATB is less than a penny! AeroPrint who are certainly not the cheapest of suppliers, especially with the strength of the pound, quoted us just under £10k for one million ATBs. I understand that BA get theirs printed in Canada?
Mannesman ATB printers are not brilliant but at least better than the cr@p that IER put out!
Mannesman ATB printers are not brilliant but at least better than the cr@p that IER put out!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read this posting with interest, and wonder why when someone within the industry and has figures and facts a member of the public starts doubting costs involved. Its the same with inflight catering and the tray costings. Yes I agree its does sound "wild" figures, but many of these costings labour/time etc are taken into account, and airline ticketing is not easy either to understand and to print. After working in Thomas Cook we had to print airline tickets and every week complete complicated forms which had to be correct and have zero mistakes listing ticket numbers etc.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chennai (MAA)
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tiger
****
After working in Thomas Cook we had to print airline tickets and every week complete complicated forms which had to be correct and have zero mistakes listing ticket numbers etc.
****
Difficult to believe!. While not denying that airline ticketing is difficult(atlest initially), the rest seems to be more a case of either inefficient support from your friendly GDS or needless bureaucracy from either the local BSP or your company accounting department.
I was working for quite a few years with one of the GDSs and was also responsible for introducing automated ticketing to the agents. What it did in our market, was cut out the paperwork dramatically!
Cheers
****
After working in Thomas Cook we had to print airline tickets and every week complete complicated forms which had to be correct and have zero mistakes listing ticket numbers etc.
****
Difficult to believe!. While not denying that airline ticketing is difficult(atlest initially), the rest seems to be more a case of either inefficient support from your friendly GDS or needless bureaucracy from either the local BSP or your company accounting department.
I was working for quite a few years with one of the GDSs and was also responsible for introducing automated ticketing to the agents. What it did in our market, was cut out the paperwork dramatically!
Cheers
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Printing the ticket was an art in itself. The pages containing the tickets had to be lined up etc with the printer.
It was just painful.
This was when ticketing was branch based, not as its done now.
It was just painful.
This was when ticketing was branch based, not as its done now.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: India
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many thanks, particuarly to bealine, for the interesting background. Appears to be a case of "what seemed a good idea at the time" isn't working as well as it should in practice....
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Manchester, England
Age: 58
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It becomes clearer why Easy/Ryanair etc can do it so much cheaper as they don't bother with such things! I would guess it's not the only example. (Yes, I know that BA et al give superior service in the sense of code-sharing, connections and that sort of stuff, and this gives an idea of how much that service costs).
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: London,Bucharest...wherever...
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just gone to have a look at our ticket stock which is 'OPATB 2 TYPE E' made by a company in Germany called Hummel, with the magnetic strip etc. etc. - checked the last bill and have to say that we weren't charged anywhere near £5 a set either...if this is the same type as I am not a ticketing expert...
We have very low in-house accounting costs, rarely use IATA Clearing House and utilise the infrastructure of our handling agents/GSA sales offices so cant comment on the overall costs that can be incurred...
If we are talking the same ticket type/spec (sorry Bealine as I say I am not an expert) then I was not aware that we could use it as a boarding pass...umm and neither did our sales dept...
We have very low in-house accounting costs, rarely use IATA Clearing House and utilise the infrastructure of our handling agents/GSA sales offices so cant comment on the overall costs that can be incurred...
If we are talking the same ticket type/spec (sorry Bealine as I say I am not an expert) then I was not aware that we could use it as a boarding pass...umm and neither did our sales dept...
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chennai (MAA)
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Refer to Memetics post on 16 Jan
*****
Obvioulsy if it were all eletronic and on compatible systems this would be able to get less costly, but getting there will cost a lot, and at the end of the day passengers like tangible proof of thier imminent travel as opposed to a locator number.
At one point Swiss air were flying all the ticket stubs to an Indian IT company for entry into the reconcilliation system in order to reduce labour costs, not sure if they still do - perhaps others have followed suit?
*****
Memetic is right. Not all world markets have ATB systems, India for eg still have the OPTAT (the conventional printed tickets) and even the automated tickets for travel agents was introduced as recently as 4 years ago, Reason given for not introducing ATB (the ones with the boarding pass) was it is more expensive.
By the way as far as I know, British Airways as well as Lufthansa have followed Swiss Air in shifting most of the revenue accounting (ticket reconciliation etc) into India.
Singapore Airlines also develops some of its software in India .
The reason as Memetic pointed out is economics! Cheaper labour with a higher than average comprehension of English.
Cheers
*****
Obvioulsy if it were all eletronic and on compatible systems this would be able to get less costly, but getting there will cost a lot, and at the end of the day passengers like tangible proof of thier imminent travel as opposed to a locator number.
At one point Swiss air were flying all the ticket stubs to an Indian IT company for entry into the reconcilliation system in order to reduce labour costs, not sure if they still do - perhaps others have followed suit?
*****
Memetic is right. Not all world markets have ATB systems, India for eg still have the OPTAT (the conventional printed tickets) and even the automated tickets for travel agents was introduced as recently as 4 years ago, Reason given for not introducing ATB (the ones with the boarding pass) was it is more expensive.
By the way as far as I know, British Airways as well as Lufthansa have followed Swiss Air in shifting most of the revenue accounting (ticket reconciliation etc) into India.
Singapore Airlines also develops some of its software in India .
The reason as Memetic pointed out is economics! Cheaper labour with a higher than average comprehension of English.
Cheers
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boss Raptor - You probably are using similar ticket stocks. However, knowing British Airways as I do, we probably pay a small fortune for having the "Corporate Logo" printed on each ticket........for some obscure reason, suppliers always seem to think BA has a limitless purse!
(That is why a Centralised Purchasing sysyem was implemented a few years ago and new rates, terms and conditions negotiated with suppliers.)
However, also knowing BA as I do, we probably purchased our present stocks five years ago so haven't yet been able to take advantage of price reductions!
"It's only money!!!"
(That is why a Centralised Purchasing sysyem was implemented a few years ago and new rates, terms and conditions negotiated with suppliers.)
However, also knowing BA as I do, we probably purchased our present stocks five years ago so haven't yet been able to take advantage of price reductions!
"It's only money!!!"
Too mean to buy a long personal title
rsoman:
By the way as far as I know, British Airways as well as Lufthansa have followed Swiss Air in shifting most of the revenue accounting (ticket reconciliation etc) into India.
Singapore Airlines also develops some of its software in India .
The reason as Memetic pointed out is economics! Cheaper labour with a higher than average comprehension of English.
By the way as far as I know, British Airways as well as Lufthansa have followed Swiss Air in shifting most of the revenue accounting (ticket reconciliation etc) into India.
Singapore Airlines also develops some of its software in India .
The reason as Memetic pointed out is economics! Cheaper labour with a higher than average comprehension of English.
Quality has suffered as a result - not because the Indian companies and staff are unable to do the job, which in principle they are able to, but because in doing so the banks have pushed out a lot of embedded experience and knowledge, and the new contractors simply don't know the bank's systems well enough to fix the things that go wrong, let alone improve them.
Any similar symptoms with the airlines?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chennai (MAA)
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gobaliser
Valid point made . From my experience, I feel this happens because when such things are subcontracted out, the role of interaction between the subject experts and the software programmers were lacking in many cases.
With one of my previous employers who was in travel automation, we at the front end always used to feel that while some parts of the software seemed to have been developed by people with an excelent insight of what it is supposed to do, the same was sadly lacking in some other areas.
For any software to work well, the programmers have to have a close understanding with key functional persons in the client company, which seem to be lacking many times
As far as I know the software developement for airlines is mostly inhouse (the one I was talking about of SQ is a joint ventrue of theirs with a leading Indian firm) unlike Banks which seems to have mostly contracted it out.
Cheers
Valid point made . From my experience, I feel this happens because when such things are subcontracted out, the role of interaction between the subject experts and the software programmers were lacking in many cases.
With one of my previous employers who was in travel automation, we at the front end always used to feel that while some parts of the software seemed to have been developed by people with an excelent insight of what it is supposed to do, the same was sadly lacking in some other areas.
For any software to work well, the programmers have to have a close understanding with key functional persons in the client company, which seem to be lacking many times
As far as I know the software developement for airlines is mostly inhouse (the one I was talking about of SQ is a joint ventrue of theirs with a leading Indian firm) unlike Banks which seems to have mostly contracted it out.
Cheers