BAe 146/Avro RJ series

[justapax]

There was a bit of discussion at the PPRuNe bash about the BAe 146/Avro RJ, both as pilots and passengers. Comments on this, the last British airliner, were generally positive - what are your views on this series? Were you ever in one when it had a bleed air issue?

It was certainly nice and quiet, internally and externally, and could land at LCY. It was the first to fly to St Helena. It was the most successful British jet airliner, being outsold only by the Vickers Viscount, which was a turboprop. But financially it was a failure for BAe, who lost over £ 1 bn over the length of the project.

[Mr Mac]

Justapax1
I have only flown on them a couple of times and they were ok but overhead lockers were tight. The carrier was BA and Aer Lingus but must be over 14 years ago. On another note we converted one of the Hangers in Hatfield to a Tennis centre. I was told the structure was listed as first Comets built in it but quite a while ago so not nailed on.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[justapax]

Originally Posted by Mr Mac

Justapax1
I have only flown on them a couple of times and they were ok but overhead lockers were tight. The carrier was BA and Aer Lingus but must be over 14 years ago. On another note we converted one of the Hangers in Hatfield to a Tennis centre. I was told the structure was listed as first Comets built in it but quite a while ago so not nailed on.
Cheers
Mr Mac

I also only flew a couple of times, one which was memorable was one of the earliest Air Baltic flights into Riga. The cabin crew were new and didn't really know what to do, they were shyly friendly but didn't realise on a short flight the aim is to get everyone served as quickly as possible, and so were willing to stop and chat. The cabin didn't seem unduly cramped, for such a small plane.

[zed3]

Flew them several times as pax, DanAir, Air UK, nice a/c with the attendant 'howl' on descent. Halcyon days.

zed.

[longer ron]

I did quite a few flights on various 146/RJ a/c
Chronologically my 1st flight was with Buzz from Stansted to Marignane,I flew down there a few times to visit friends (and sometimes take some car spares ),on one of the flights I realised that the Capt whilst describing our expected flight details seemed to be saying that rather than approaching over the Etang - we would actually be looping out over the sea near the Chataeu D'if,I thought that sounded quite pretty so I asked an FA if there was any chance of getting the jump seat for the approach into Marignane (I did explain to her that I was an aircraft engineer and private pilot and promised not to sit there asking stoopid questions ).
Anyway the Capt and F/O were both really nice guys and also offered me the seat for the return flight in a few days time - that never came about because they had a trainee with them and the weather at Stansted was foul anyway .
In later years I flew regularly (weekly) in the company aircraft from Farnborough,often in the company Skoda (ATP) - sometimes in a Titan ATR42 (yuk) but if we were really lucky we got the company 146
Even later I flew a few times in the QQ RJ's out of Boscombe Down - it sure beat having to drive up to Valley to sort out jet diversions

I quite enjoyed flying in the 146/RJ - some of them were a bit smelly on start up (engine oily smell) but otherwise absolutely fine

[c52]

Flew on them with Air UK, BA & LH. Air UK was memorable for "it's a feature of this aircraft that steam pours out of the a/c shortly after take-off (IIRC)", and part of the safety briefing "there's a whistle for attracting the attention of any passing sailors".

[Uplinker]

Type rated and flew the BAe146 for several years: A very nicely designed and built aircraft. Lovely and satisfying to fly, although no auto thrust, and a fairly basic auto-pilot, and very basic navigation computer: On "ours" we flew holds into Heathrow the old fashioned way by doing the drift, timing and heading calculations in our head. Good mental practice though.

I did my best-ever landing in a 146 at Heathrow.

All reference to hairdryers or APUs instead of engines get short shrift from me. Redundancy and robustness were what counted, as well as STOL performance. 3 engined ferry's were possible and certified.

To achieve STOL, the wing was designed for high lift, which in turn created sub-optimal drag performance in the cruise. Hence, the economics eventually worked against the aircraft, along with the fuel flow of four engines, once aircraft with more efficient wings and twin engines were developed.

A great British success, though.

@zed3; the howl was the flaps deploying. At a certain point, the gap between the inboard flaps and the fuselage caused a sound to be generated by the airstream which deepened in pitch as the gap got larger with the flap movement.

[Expatrick]

Ah, the baby jumbo! Flew on it a few times with Brussels Airlines.

[artee]

Flew on a Qantas 146 from Perth to Alice Springs - Ayers Rock (Uluru). Lovely aircraft.

[DaveReidUK]

My memory may be playing tricks on me, but didn't some airlines configure them as 5-abreast and others as 6-abreast?

If that's true, I would imagine it had a fairly profound effect on passenger comfort ...

[Alanwsg]

I was in the back of one in 2007 when it crashed at London city airport.
Hurt my neck.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by Justapax1

There was a bit of discussion at the PPRuNe bash about the BAe 146/Avro RJ, both as pilots and passengers. Comments on this, the last British airliner, were generally positive - what are your views on this series? Were you ever in one when it had a bleed air issue?

I think I was the one of the Bashees who may have originated this, and by our home location used them a fair amount out of LCY. My last ever ride was an RJ of Jota, a small Southend charter independent, who occasionally stood in for a BA Embraer at London City. I had seen it was scheduled back from Dublin one evening when I was visiting there, so just somehow managed to get booked on it ... described in more detail over on our parallel Old Airliner thread on Flyertalk

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion. - Page 389 - FlyerTalk Forums

I also noted the very last 146/RJ out of LCY, this time really by chance, Aer Lingus had started a separate Dublin operation, leased from Cityjet and lightly decalled, which was lifting off one Saturday just as we got into Covid Lockdown. I chanced to be outside at the time. It was actually their last flight before they stopped it, and it never came back.

Most chaotic was a short-lived operation Euromanx about 20 years ago, with short-body RJ70 (alias a 146-100), LCY to Isle of Man. Previous evening flight cancelled, my next morning one thus had two planeloads, complete ground disorganisation, left an hour late. Around Top of Descent, from somewhere directly above my head, was a loud KER-BOING sound, presumably some large spring had let go with this Spike Milligan-type noise. All us pax looked at each other, crew said nothing, on we went.

There were a couple of landing mishaps at LCY. A Swiss one was eventually repaired by floating it across the dock on a barge, doing the repairs over there where the university buildings now stand, and floating it back for departure. The BA one wasn't so lucky, it stood right there at one of the gates for a while, eventually it was completely sheeted over for a month or so, when the sheeting was removed it had gone. Apparently all covertly broken up inside, and the scrap spirited away each night in trucks.

It's sufficiently long ago that I can possibly now report I once parodied on here the Cityjet France-based staff at LCY (apparently they used it as a training base for ground service apprentices, on their considerable 146/RJ operation there), with their "Zeetyjott" pronunciation, and received a PM from other LCY staff saying they had such a laugh they had put it up on their noticeboard !

[Groundloop]

@zed3; the howl was the flaps deploying. At a certain point, the gap between the inboard flaps and the fuselage caused a sound to be generated by the airstream which deepened in pitch as the gap got larger with the flap movement.

I used to work with a BAe aerodynamics engineer who told me that they spent a LOT of wind tunnel time trying to cure the howl - but gave up in the end!

[BonnieLass]

I had the pleasure of flying aboard a Brussels Airlines 146 in 2013...just before their fleet was fully retired/sold. Always wanted to have a flight in one and this flight wasn't meant to be a 146 but was replacing the Airbus that had been scheduled.
Lovely little dinky, great views out of the windows even when sat beside an engine....let down a bit by the weather, a few photos as I was leaving Brussels on the way to Manchester :

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by Groundloop

I used to work with a BAe aerodynamics engineer who told me that they spent a LOT of wind tunnel time trying to cure the howl - but gave up in the end!

I read separately, that they did design a modification to the wing fairing, but it was 50kg each side, equal to two passengers, so had almost no uptake - except for the two RAF aircraft supplied to the onetime Queen's Flight squadron.

[Asturias56]

Always felt a bit claustrophobic to me - I guess all the metal just outside the windows contributed. Not as noisy as you'd expect and very quick to get on and off. Tho' with 4 engines for 100-110 seats it was never going to sell in vast numbers

[Uplinker]

Originally Posted by Groundloop

I used to work with a BAe aerodynamics engineer who told me that they spent a LOT of wind tunnel time trying to cure the howl - but gave up in the end!

I was told that someone did eventually design a mod to reduce the flap howl, but only HM The Queen had it fitted - to "her" 146's !

Interestingly, speed brakes on 'modern' jets such as the A320 sometimes also produce a similar - but shorter duration - howl when they deploy at speed; going from high pitch to lower pitch as they open and vice versa.

Coming home to the UK from the south approaching London, there is a point where you are held above FL190, and then have to get down pretty steeply to below FL {I can't remember} within a few miles. This normally requires half or full speed brakes while doing > 250kts, which produces a howl that can sometimes be heard over London.

[BRUpax]

According to my records my first BAe 146 flight was with Dan-Air on G-BKMN in June 1983. I do recollect that I found it a little tight for space, but it was Dan-Air
I went on to later make 25 flights on the 146 with Delta Air Transport (operating for SABENA) and Brussels Airlines.

I flew close to 250 times on the RJ-85/RJ-100, again mainly with Brussels Airlines. I found them comfortable and enjoyed flying on them. My last flight (on an RJ-100) was in November 2013 (Blimey, that long ago already)!!

[WHBM]

I just listed out who I flew with on the type; was surprised to get to 12

Conti Flug
Cityjet
BA
Euromanx
PSA
Aer Lingus
Jota
Air UK
Buzz
British European
Flybe
Manx

The only one with 5-across seating was PSA, which several US carriers apparently did, but maybe no Europeans. The seats were set somewhat higher, step up from the aisle, and because of the inward curve of the cabin wall there was no more real room than with 6-across set further down. The ones that later came back to Europe were reseated.

[pax britanica]

I had some nice trips on BA LGW to Toulouse in early 2000s , i enjoyed the trip-another type ticked off. It was quite comfortable altho on one trip we had th Toulouse Rugby team for company and i think they found it very very cramped, some very big lads, no hijackings likely with them on board