BAe 146/Avro RJ series
Joined: Aug 2001
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 1,829
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From: se england
As to the 146 series sales I think the problem was that although it sold very widely and was a pretty good aircraft no one customer wanted a lot of them so not only didnt you get big sales you had to deal with mods and after sales support for a lot of customers all round the world -an expensive exercise. No Ryanair or SouthWest orders in the hundreds for them
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
A wonderful aircraft! Yes the overhead lockers were small but the high wing made it very good for the regional flights it was designed for with short simple steps.
Most of my flights were with Manx Air (both editions!) as my mother and her husband retired to the Isle of Man. They lived in Castletown on the southern tip of the island, very close to Ronaldsway. We had Viscounts on the LHR route for a number of years but G-OJET started in December 1987. I know this because I was on it! Really by chance. I had booked a Friday midday flight as it was obviously cheaper than the evening. The 146 was scheduled to make it's first official flight that evening. But it was also on the midday rotation - pax got champagne. After the noise of the Viscounts, it was bliss and the high wing gave great views as BonnieLass illustrated.
I'll follow up later with other trips on this smashing machine.
Most of my flights were with Manx Air (both editions!) as my mother and her husband retired to the Isle of Man. They lived in Castletown on the southern tip of the island, very close to Ronaldsway. We had Viscounts on the LHR route for a number of years but G-OJET started in December 1987. I know this because I was on it! Really by chance. I had booked a Friday midday flight as it was obviously cheaper than the evening. The 146 was scheduled to make it's first official flight that evening. But it was also on the midday rotation - pax got champagne. After the noise of the Viscounts, it was bliss and the high wing gave great views as BonnieLass illustrated.
I'll follow up later with other trips on this smashing machine.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 316
Likes: 3
From: up north
Several experiences from NCL:
Dan-air to Amsterdam, via Teesside - a great sightseeing trip along the durham coastline!
Air Uk from Amsterdam dropping into EDI on the way, then pretty much following the A68 at what seemed to be 1000 feet over Carter Bar.
BA Cityflyer to/from LGW
British European to Southampton
Also BE early December ski charter from LGW to Verona - the roar was particularly noticeable with a step down approach from above the alps to the Italian plain.
Worst experience was sat in the very back row of a Swiss "Jumbolino" from LCY to ZRH - noisy, uncomfortable and no view outside at all.
Dan-air to Amsterdam, via Teesside - a great sightseeing trip along the durham coastline!
Air Uk from Amsterdam dropping into EDI on the way, then pretty much following the A68 at what seemed to be 1000 feet over Carter Bar.
BA Cityflyer to/from LGW
British European to Southampton
Also BE early December ski charter from LGW to Verona - the roar was particularly noticeable with a step down approach from above the alps to the Italian plain.
Worst experience was sat in the very back row of a Swiss "Jumbolino" from LCY to ZRH - noisy, uncomfortable and no view outside at all.
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,201
Likes: 347
From: London UK
It's surprising how many runways I used in the 146 which have disappeared
Berlin Tempelhof - with Conti Flug, to LCY.
Edinburgh - old cross runway 12, an Air UK departure when others were queued up for 06.
Dublin - Cityjet from the old short 29, now dug up for the new main 09L/27R. Starting from the north side remote parking, must have saved 10 minutes or more. Again headed for LCY.
Regarding "sales" of the aircraft, I think a considerable number were leased from new by BAe, who set up a specific organisation, BAe Asset Management, to handle these, the ATP, and the Jetstream. They got quite a lot back somewhat prematurely, which had to be remarketed, which is possibly where much of the programme loss came from.
Berlin Tempelhof - with Conti Flug, to LCY.
Edinburgh - old cross runway 12, an Air UK departure when others were queued up for 06.
Dublin - Cityjet from the old short 29, now dug up for the new main 09L/27R. Starting from the north side remote parking, must have saved 10 minutes or more. Again headed for LCY.
Regarding "sales" of the aircraft, I think a considerable number were leased from new by BAe, who set up a specific organisation, BAe Asset Management, to handle these, the ATP, and the Jetstream. They got quite a lot back somewhat prematurely, which had to be remarketed, which is possibly where much of the programme loss came from.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 857
Likes: 68
From: North Cheshire
Air UK's 22, PSA's 20 aircraft, and TNT's 12? Not bad for a regional airliner! There would also have been an order for 15 to replace the Electras on the Rio-SãoPaulo Air Bridge, had not political interference intervened - a subject close to my heart!
Barry Lloyd - former 146 salesman.
Barry Lloyd - former 146 salesman.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 857
Likes: 68
From: North Cheshire
In general, we didn't see the 737 as a major competitor. The Fokker 70/100 (328 built in total) was seen as a far greater and closer competitor, which made the Air UK operation interesting 
We worked in regions. I speak Spanish and Portuguese, so my main territory was from Mexico southwards, but sometimes other countries, too, for example, getting certification for LCY.. Lots of stories, the good, the bad and the ugly, in my book 'Wings for Sale'
We worked in regions. I speak Spanish and Portuguese, so my main territory was from Mexico southwards, but sometimes other countries, too, for example, getting certification for LCY.. Lots of stories, the good, the bad and the ugly, in my book 'Wings for Sale'
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
I truly loved being a pax on this fab machine and would cheerfully ride it anyday. It felt 'the right size' for a regional and not the constantly stretched 73 that feels like the large people hauler that it is. Knocked spots off the larger DC-9 and MD-80.
I was impressed when it started at LCY, which I had used in 1989/90 when I worked in the City thus I got DH8. Unfortunately, I live on the other side of London and the time/cost of getting to LCY was/is never worth it.
There were two sectors of the 'How did he think it would work?' DebonAir!
MUC-LTN rtn.
Certainly rated as my favourite regional machine. As we discussed at the Bash, it was the right machine but just too late. Once more powerful engines arrived and it could be done with twins - it was too late. I sit to be corrected.
I was impressed when it started at LCY, which I had used in 1989/90 when I worked in the City thus I got DH8. Unfortunately, I live on the other side of London and the time/cost of getting to LCY was/is never worth it.
There were two sectors of the 'How did he think it would work?' DebonAir!
MUC-LTN rtn.Certainly rated as my favourite regional machine. As we discussed at the Bash, it was the right machine but just too late. Once more powerful engines arrived and it could be done with twins - it was too late. I sit to be corrected.
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,201
Likes: 347
From: London UK
There are so many aspects of aircraft costing to take into account, fuel and engine maintenance are just part of it, and so often you find that the difference even of these is not as great as whooped about by the competition. Then there's revenue. Seat mile costs are something of a fiction, just dividing overall costs by seats, because comparing a 100-seat RJ against a 150-seat Boeing, if there's not even 100 seats of demand at the best price point then the extra 50 seats are useless.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,699
Likes: 2,041
From: Reading, UK
I worked alongside a number of former 146/RJ salesmen during my spell with sales and marketing at Shorts.
It didn't take them long to stop moaning about what a hard job selling the jet had been ...
It didn't take them long to stop moaning about what a hard job selling the jet had been ...
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
My only trip on a Shed was LPL to IOM, I think that was sufficient. Of course, for short distance shipping of anything, it was very good. Of course, boxes of goods do not mind the noise.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,578
Likes: 312
From: UK and Italy
To achieve STOL, the wing was designed for high lift, which in turn created sub-optimal drag performance in the cruise. Hence, the economics eventually worked against the aircraft, along with the fuel flow of four engines, once aircraft with more efficient wings and twin engines were developed.
Gnome de PPRuNe
Joined: Jan 2002
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 15,188
Likes: 1,201
From: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Flew with Dan-Air to/from Dublin on the 146 (very enjoyable trip to the excellent Baldonnel Air Show - practically every airworthy Irish aircraft not owned by Aer Lingus appeared to be there!) and rather more recently back from Brussels on a Belgian 146 subbing for Virgin Express.
Abiding memory of the Dublin trip was the aircraft almost seemed louder inside than they did from the ground (thinking Farnborough displays) and from the Brussels trip the sound of the flap retraction/deployment!
Abiding memory of the Dublin trip was the aircraft almost seemed louder inside than they did from the ground (thinking Farnborough displays) and from the Brussels trip the sound of the flap retraction/deployment!
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,201
Likes: 347
From: London UK
On a London City normal westerly departure the flaps were normally cleaned up as the aircraft turned right overhead Stratford. The associated sound was quite audible from the railway station platform there, and I even noticed it penetrated a quiet moment from the stadium grounds during a 2012 Olympics broadcast.
Cabin crew did say on final descent it tipped them off to give Cabin Secure to the flight deck !
Cabin crew did say on final descent it tipped them off to give Cabin Secure to the flight deck !
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,769
Likes: 347
From: UK
… the wing was designed for high lift, which in turn created sub-optimal drag performance in the cruise.
Drag; not so much the wing section, but lack of sweepback, limited speed - by design; avoids the complexities of leading edge slats, which in turn allows manual vs hydraulic controls, trimable tail.
Flap noise was proportionate to speed; lower the better - thus F'boro, speed was 'managed'
Re Fokker competition; back-to-back fly off at Lugano. 146/RJ quieter, steep approach + LCY, engine out performance, cabin size / configuration.
Drag; not so much the wing section, but lack of sweepback, limited speed - by design; avoids the complexities of leading edge slats, which in turn allows manual vs hydraulic controls, trimable tail.
Flap noise was proportionate to speed; lower the better - thus F'boro, speed was 'managed'
Re Fokker competition; back-to-back fly off at Lugano. 146/RJ quieter, steep approach + LCY, engine out performance, cabin size / configuration.