Odds n Sods
Joined: May 2024
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 965
Likes: 1,018
From: Near SOU
In view of the recent ground collision at Atlanta...
Since many major airports date back to the days of stringbags and expansion is simply not possible either due to lack of space or basic cost, and airliners seem to be growing (longer fuselage/longer wingspan)...how can the airline and airport industry prevent further accidents like the Delta coming together?
Many times I have flown on relatively small airliners (B737, A319, A320 etc - which are small compared to the A350, A380 etc) and most of the wings have been over the grass when taxiing. Planes just do not fit on taxiways anymore......an old Trident or BAC1-11 would be a snug fit on a taxiway, more modern aircraft overhang taxiways in every direction
I get that you have eyes in the cockpit and eyes in the tower but surely...maybe...it might be time to expand the width of taxiways, thus prevent overhanging winglets knocking tails and other parts off other aircraft in the vicinity
Or maybe fit a form of camera...similar to a reversing camera on a car...that sees forwards, outwards and backwards from the wingtip/winglet thus giving the eyes in the cockpit a realtime view of what is potentially in the way
For cost and convenience I would imagine a camera system fitted within the wingtip/winglet, possibly incorporated within the nav lights fitting would be cheaper and easier than extending the width of taxiways?
Finally on the subject of that CRJ.....are entire tails sposed to come off seemingly that easily? The A350's wingtip and winglet must be incredibly strong to cut a tail off like a hot knife through butter like that. Those aboard the CRJ can thank their lucky stars that they were not hurt bearing in mind that the engines, APU etc are where the tail was amputated so cleanly. The noise inside that CRJ must have been terrifying.
Since many major airports date back to the days of stringbags and expansion is simply not possible either due to lack of space or basic cost, and airliners seem to be growing (longer fuselage/longer wingspan)...how can the airline and airport industry prevent further accidents like the Delta coming together?
Many times I have flown on relatively small airliners (B737, A319, A320 etc - which are small compared to the A350, A380 etc) and most of the wings have been over the grass when taxiing. Planes just do not fit on taxiways anymore......an old Trident or BAC1-11 would be a snug fit on a taxiway, more modern aircraft overhang taxiways in every direction
I get that you have eyes in the cockpit and eyes in the tower but surely...maybe...it might be time to expand the width of taxiways, thus prevent overhanging winglets knocking tails and other parts off other aircraft in the vicinity
Or maybe fit a form of camera...similar to a reversing camera on a car...that sees forwards, outwards and backwards from the wingtip/winglet thus giving the eyes in the cockpit a realtime view of what is potentially in the way
For cost and convenience I would imagine a camera system fitted within the wingtip/winglet, possibly incorporated within the nav lights fitting would be cheaper and easier than extending the width of taxiways?
Finally on the subject of that CRJ.....are entire tails sposed to come off seemingly that easily? The A350's wingtip and winglet must be incredibly strong to cut a tail off like a hot knife through butter like that. Those aboard the CRJ can thank their lucky stars that they were not hurt bearing in mind that the engines, APU etc are where the tail was amputated so cleanly. The noise inside that CRJ must have been terrifying.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Interesting about Bristol:
Guardian
Guardian
Airport parking: £100 fines in Bristol ‘could be unenforceable’
Eagle-eyed reader and consumer solicitor say local bylaws are key to question of enforcement
Eagle-eyed reader and consumer solicitor say local bylaws are key to question of enforcement
Joined: May 2024
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 965
Likes: 1,018
From: Near SOU
Why is there such a lack of investment in airports and airport infrastructure in "western" countries?
The terminal buildings at LHR, CDG, AMS, IAH etc are tired and tatty compared to SIN, PKX, DXB, HND and others in the Middle/Far East
Is it purely a financial thing or are airports a low priority or is it the so-called "green lobby"?
The terminal buildings at LHR, CDG, AMS, IAH etc are tired and tatty compared to SIN, PKX, DXB, HND and others in the Middle/Far East
Is it purely a financial thing or are airports a low priority or is it the so-called "green lobby"?
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 106
Likes: 54
From: London
Many airports have been sold off to private equity. they prioritise income and profits over appearance and customer service. If it doesn't make money they spend as little as possible on it (eg seating)
50 years ago a shiny new airport was a political shoe-in - every new country wanted one, every big city wanted a gleaming cathedral to the modern age. When Air transport became a long haul bus service, carrying hens & stags and at the lowest possible cost - that went by the board - not aspirational.
these days publicly owned airports have to fight against other calls on public funds- hospitals, social care, road repairs. People realise that very very few people's journeys are affected by the state of the airport - as long as its safe, easily accessible by public transport and flights come and go on time.
50 years ago a shiny new airport was a political shoe-in - every new country wanted one, every big city wanted a gleaming cathedral to the modern age. When Air transport became a long haul bus service, carrying hens & stags and at the lowest possible cost - that went by the board - not aspirational.
these days publicly owned airports have to fight against other calls on public funds- hospitals, social care, road repairs. People realise that very very few people's journeys are affected by the state of the airport - as long as its safe, easily accessible by public transport and flights come and go on time.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
That's a very neat summing up DButler. It started off as railways, then a century ago it was ocean going liners, then govts wanted airlines. We saw that emerging nations gaining their independence wanted their 'flag carrier'. In the UK that term is still used eventhough, I suggest, it is now meaningless.
Joined: May 2024
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 965
Likes: 1,018
From: Near SOU
As first impression go upon arrival at, for instance, LHR or LGW...it isn't a good impression for those visiting the UK for the first time. And that is sad cos we should be proud of our aviation infrastructure and we have not got a "showpiece" airport anywhere in the country, the UK's airport infrastructure has been ignored and allowed to fester and crumble for too long
The UK isn't the only country to have forgotten how to design and build state of the art airports that are a destination in themselves
My one and only trip to the US was to IAH. It was about 10 days after Hurricane Ike had visited so I can let them off for the state of the airport but design wise it was dull, bland and just stark...it wasn't welcoming
SIN is just overwhelming in the attention to detail, the clean lines and stunningly beautiful architecture, same with KIX......you get the total WOW factor the moment you walk in the door
A fair number of these gleaming gems have British architects....yet British airports are just horrible
When I fly I usually arrive at the airport 3 or 4 hours before I need to and I like to explore and photograph the architecture. British airports are a let down along with many other western country's airports...CDG was a stunner when it first opened, it was ahead of its time....but nowadays it has been allowed to just lose its personality and character. There is a sense of pride lacking which is a shame.
The UK isn't the only country to have forgotten how to design and build state of the art airports that are a destination in themselves
My one and only trip to the US was to IAH. It was about 10 days after Hurricane Ike had visited so I can let them off for the state of the airport but design wise it was dull, bland and just stark...it wasn't welcoming
SIN is just overwhelming in the attention to detail, the clean lines and stunningly beautiful architecture, same with KIX......you get the total WOW factor the moment you walk in the door
A fair number of these gleaming gems have British architects....yet British airports are just horrible
When I fly I usually arrive at the airport 3 or 4 hours before I need to and I like to explore and photograph the architecture. British airports are a let down along with many other western country's airports...CDG was a stunner when it first opened, it was ahead of its time....but nowadays it has been allowed to just lose its personality and character. There is a sense of pride lacking which is a shame.
Joined: May 2024
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 965
Likes: 1,018
From: Near SOU
That's a very neat summing up DButler. It started off as railways, then a century ago it was ocean going liners, then govts wanted airlines. We saw that emerging nations gaining their independence wanted their 'flag carrier'. In the UK that term is still used eventhough, I suggest, it is now meaningless.
One thing that always sticks in my mind was the time Maggie Thatcher placed her hankerchief over the tail of a BA model that didn't have the flag on it. She said nothing but that one action of covering the tail spoke volumes as to the general feeling at the time that BA should always have the Union flag on the tail.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
I thought that the 'Tails of many countries' was a brilliant idea. I thought it inclusive and vibrant. perhaps because I already knew that the 'flag carrier' thing was way out of date.
Joined: May 2024
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 965
Likes: 1,018
From: Near SOU
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,578
Likes: 312
From: UK and Italy
Terminal 2 at LHR is pretty slick, but Terminal 3 dates back to 1961 and shows its age, it's long overdue for knocking down and rebuilding. It's almost as old as me, and I definitely could do with rebuilding.
There are still plenty of flag carriers, in the sense of airlines that are majority owned by the government of whichever country their flag belongs to. Probably the best example is Emirates, which is 100% owned by the government of the Emirate of Dubai, although the government now just collects its annual dividend and doesn't manage the airline at all. Aeroflot is 74% owned by the Russian government, and is still a pretty big airline despite being banned from lots of countries. I'd say that the majority of airlines are flag carriers, although carrying the flag has ceased to be the norm in Europe and North America for some time.
There are still plenty of flag carriers, in the sense of airlines that are majority owned by the government of whichever country their flag belongs to. Probably the best example is Emirates, which is 100% owned by the government of the Emirate of Dubai, although the government now just collects its annual dividend and doesn't manage the airline at all. Aeroflot is 74% owned by the Russian government, and is still a pretty big airline despite being banned from lots of countries. I'd say that the majority of airlines are flag carriers, although carrying the flag has ceased to be the norm in Europe and North America for some time.
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 106
Likes: 54
From: London
Most US airports are pretty grim - they reached the "bus station" level many years ago. JFK isn't good, Chicago is really a bus station, Miami - least said the better- and LAX used to be awful - especially for international passengers.
The modern classics - Changi , Dubai etc are all built as a reflection of what are really very small countries trying to make an impression - bigger countries have better things to spend their money on. In China & Indonesia you still come across brand new, smart airports being built - but I'm sure that in 20 years time they'll be just like LHR or DFW
The modern classics - Changi , Dubai etc are all built as a reflection of what are really very small countries trying to make an impression - bigger countries have better things to spend their money on. In China & Indonesia you still come across brand new, smart airports being built - but I'm sure that in 20 years time they'll be just like LHR or DFW
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 106
Likes: 54
From: London
" we have not got a "showpiece" airport anywhere in the country,"
Interesting question - what was the last "showcase" airport in the UK?
Maybe LHR T2 (the original one). T1 was industrial, T3 was always an ill begotten maze. I can't think of another one that even came close.............. All municipal airports were cobbled togetehr bits, LGW was unloved......... Maybe Stansted but no-one ever went there.
In Europe GDG at the start was smart but then went downhill, Schipol is efficient but not attractive etc etc
Interesting question - what was the last "showcase" airport in the UK?
Maybe LHR T2 (the original one). T1 was industrial, T3 was always an ill begotten maze. I can't think of another one that even came close.............. All municipal airports were cobbled togetehr bits, LGW was unloved......... Maybe Stansted but no-one ever went there.
In Europe GDG at the start was smart but then went downhill, Schipol is efficient but not attractive etc etc
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Talking of new airport. The proposal to provide a second main in Cape Town looks like it might go ahead.
RSA Aero is the company who want to expand the current GA location.
RSA Aero website
They look to be well placed in that CPT is now hemmed in on all sides and (my guess) the volume of international traffic might be squeezing out internals. They claim they want Int too but that would be (my guess) Namibia and similar short haul. The LCCs would certainly welcome an alternative that is only about 26Km away (as the crow flies when it's sober). As always, time will tell.
The Cape Winelands Airport is set to offer local and international flights by 2027. Phase 1, costing $399.89 will begin soon.
RSA Aero website
They look to be well placed in that CPT is now hemmed in on all sides and (my guess) the volume of international traffic might be squeezing out internals. They claim they want Int too but that would be (my guess) Namibia and similar short haul. The LCCs would certainly welcome an alternative that is only about 26Km away (as the crow flies when it's sober). As always, time will tell.
Joined: May 2024
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 965
Likes: 1,018
From: Near SOU
" we have not got a "showpiece" airport anywhere in the country,"
Interesting question - what was the last "showcase" airport in the UK?
Maybe LHR T2 (the original one). T1 was industrial, T3 was always an ill begotten maze. I can't think of another one that even came close.............. All municipal airports were cobbled togetehr bits, LGW was unloved......... Maybe Stansted but no-one ever went there.
In Europe GDG at the start was smart but then went downhill, Schipol is efficient but not attractive etc etc
Interesting question - what was the last "showcase" airport in the UK?
Maybe LHR T2 (the original one). T1 was industrial, T3 was always an ill begotten maze. I can't think of another one that even came close.............. All municipal airports were cobbled togetehr bits, LGW was unloved......... Maybe Stansted but no-one ever went there.
In Europe GDG at the start was smart but then went downhill, Schipol is efficient but not attractive etc etc
If I had to choose a favourite airport in the UK it would be MAN but only due to the fact that the trains terminate inside the terminal structure and the covered walkways tween terminals are well designed and are cleaned properly.
The UK has a very long history in aviation it is about time we had a showpiece airport....ideally to replace LGW (which is a dump) and LHR (that resembles a jumbled up Lego set with bits missing). Find a big patch of land tween the two and build a state of the art, future proof airport and get the UK back onto the aviation smart list map. Once that is complete, find another big patch of land tween LBA and MAN and build another state of the art, future proof airport to replace those two too (especially LBA since public transport is virtually non-existant).
....and stuff the green lobby
Joined: Oct 2018
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,217
Likes: 1,649
From: Ferrara
"Find a big patch of land tween the two and build a state of the art, future proof airport"
have you looked at a map of SE England? Where are you suggesting as an example location? Richmond Park?
50 + years ago Roskill wanted a new airport out in the Thames Estuary because there was little other real choice and was laughed off the planet
have you looked at a map of SE England? Where are you suggesting as an example location? Richmond Park?
50 + years ago Roskill wanted a new airport out in the Thames Estuary because there was little other real choice and was laughed off the planet
Joined: Jan 2008
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,022
Likes: 1,066
From: Australia
When LHR T5 opened to fanfare it had months of teething troubles and after using it (due to no alternative connection) a few years ago I thought it was absolutely awful. It is a confusing maze...so much so that even my golfcart driver got lost tween gate to gate, he apologised and said he always gets lost on connections tween BA flights in T5 but has no issues navigating the other terminals.
If I had to choose a favourite airport in the UK it would be MAN but only due to the fact that the trains terminate inside the terminal structure and the covered walkways tween terminals are well designed and are cleaned properly.
The UK has a very long history in aviation it is about time we had a showpiece airport....ideally to replace LGW (which is a dump) and LHR (that resembles a jumbled up Lego set with bits missing). Find a big patch of land tween the two and build a state of the art, future proof airport and get the UK back onto the aviation smart list map. Once that is complete, find another big patch of land tween LBA and MAN and build another state of the art, future proof airport to replace those two too (especially LBA since public transport is virtually non-existant).
....and stuff the green lobby
If I had to choose a favourite airport in the UK it would be MAN but only due to the fact that the trains terminate inside the terminal structure and the covered walkways tween terminals are well designed and are cleaned properly.
The UK has a very long history in aviation it is about time we had a showpiece airport....ideally to replace LGW (which is a dump) and LHR (that resembles a jumbled up Lego set with bits missing). Find a big patch of land tween the two and build a state of the art, future proof airport and get the UK back onto the aviation smart list map. Once that is complete, find another big patch of land tween LBA and MAN and build another state of the art, future proof airport to replace those two too (especially LBA since public transport is virtually non-existant).
....and stuff the green lobby
Joined: Jan 2008
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,022
Likes: 1,066
From: Australia
"Find a big patch of land tween the two and build a state of the art, future proof airport"
have you looked at a map of SE England? Where are you suggesting as an example location? Richmond Park?
50 + years ago Roskill wanted a new airport out in the Thames Estuary because there was little other real choice and was laughed off the planet
have you looked at a map of SE England? Where are you suggesting as an example location? Richmond Park?
50 + years ago Roskill wanted a new airport out in the Thames Estuary because there was little other real choice and was laughed off the planet
Joined: May 2024
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 965
Likes: 1,018
From: Near SOU
"Find a big patch of land tween the two and build a state of the art, future proof airport"
have you looked at a map of SE England? Where are you suggesting as an example location? Richmond Park?
50 + years ago Roskill wanted a new airport out in the Thames Estuary because there was little other real choice and was laughed off the planet
have you looked at a map of SE England? Where are you suggesting as an example location? Richmond Park?
50 + years ago Roskill wanted a new airport out in the Thames Estuary because there was little other real choice and was laughed off the planet
Once LHR & LGW are demolished they can become parkland just like Greenham Common is.
Thought police antagonist
Joined: Jul 2003
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
Posts: 1,572
Likes: 349
From: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
If so, you would have noticed it undulates (ever so slightly) and, viewed from the cab, you may have missed various dams / reservoirs and "one or two" large townships" on the somewhat limited flat ground.
That, and this super "future proof" airport would need something called planning permission, and a few inquiries, before McAlpine's fusiliers arrive to start digging. In the interim, local residents, will, presumably, have been served with compulsory purchase orders, quite uncomplainingly (unlikely in Yorkshire)
At a rough guess, the nearest decade will be fine, how long do you think it would take to create this aviation Babylon ....and, minor detail.....how much ?