Christmas Chaos LGW
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Tango, I have no idea about LGW, but its not uncommon in the commercial world to have generators in the basement.
What you normally find along with these is a slightly deeper hole below them with a "sump pump" that keeps things dry.
With the weather that we have ahd recently though the pumps just cant keep up with the abnormal deluge of water that they have been dealt with.
Just look around the area that you live. Have you seen any roads flooded? Have you seen drains that have coped without issues?
What you normally find along with these is a slightly deeper hole below them with a "sump pump" that keeps things dry.
With the weather that we have ahd recently though the pumps just cant keep up with the abnormal deluge of water that they have been dealt with.
Just look around the area that you live. Have you seen any roads flooded? Have you seen drains that have coped without issues?
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Christmas Chaos LGW
It sounds like a joke, but.....
Frankly, I have never encountered anything so absurd. A contingency measure rendered useless in emergency! What next?
Frankly, I have never encountered anything so absurd. A contingency measure rendered useless in emergency! What next?
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The problem could have been prevented if the Govt of 1952 that decided on the aiport's development and placing had foreseen:
> The big change to our climate
> The big change to our climate
Not at all, thats where most backup generators are located. they have worked evry well for years in that location.
Its not as if you are suggesting having large volumes of fuel to power them, on an upper floor is it ?
If you haven't encountered the situation before that proves little. How much experience do you have in assessing risk of design construction criteria ? Zero at a guess.
Anyone can be a smart*rse after the event (I am particularly good at it
- ask my wife)
Its not as if you are suggesting having large volumes of fuel to power them, on an upper floor is it ?
If you haven't encountered the situation before that proves little. How much experience do you have in assessing risk of design construction criteria ? Zero at a guess.
Anyone can be a smart*rse after the event (I am particularly good at it
- ask my wife)
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I really don't see what all this fuss is about machinery being underground. Most of London Underground switchgear and electrics is underground. Mine switchgear and generator facilities are underground. Most of the UK War Office was underground (and probably still is). It's not the fact that it's underground - it's the fact that it was overwhelmed by water. As has already been said, the pumps that keep the sump dry were overwhelmed and that is where the problem lies - inadequate pumping and drainage on a clay subsoil.
Last edited by Sunnyjohn; 3rd Jan 2014 at 19:37. Reason: removal of period
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Christmas Chaos LGW
Having worked in the design and construction of a number of major projects including major shopping centres, hospitals and Airport terminals I can assure you that it would be normal to undertake a detailed risk assessment and locate any back up plant so as to ensure it was not rendered useless ( for any reason) because of a reasonably foreseeable event like storm or flood, earthquake, fire etc. for this reason, locations like basements and roofs tend not to be ideal! A secure compound above the 1 in 200 year flood level with appropriate provision for further protection and which is easily accessible at all times would seem preferable to a below ground basement with inadequate pumping capacity. On this evidence can we assume LHR ( combined heat and power) power station is safe if any of the diverted rivers bursts it's banks? Remember the Mole valley and the potential risks associated with flooding were recognised in the LGW masterplan.
Some of you may remember the Kingsway tram tunnel. The bit nearest the river was converted in 1964 to the Kingsway underpass but there remains, to this day, an unused section which comes to the surface just north of Holborn tube station.
During the 70s a friend was part of the team who would be called out in the event of London being threatened by a flood (the barrier opened in 82). His place of work (should it be needed) was a portacabin in that unused part of the tunnel. When I asked him whether that was a good idea he said "it's uphill from the river"!
During the 70s a friend was part of the team who would be called out in the event of London being threatened by a flood (the barrier opened in 82). His place of work (should it be needed) was a portacabin in that unused part of the tunnel. When I asked him whether that was a good idea he said "it's uphill from the river"!
Join Date: May 2009
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Fine the bar-stewards
Returned 4Jan to LGW. Travelling with 2 Pax who had requested assistance. Ambulatory but unable to walk distances. Flight arrive 40 mins late at 2350. Doors opened about 0005.
Told to wait till after all other PAX deplaned and they would be assisted. About 0020 were told nobody had come yet and cockpit crew had requested expedite. Around 0045 told still nobody and those that could should make way to Immigration themselves. One other pax unable to do this, but we left and slowly made way to Immigration (from Gates 101-113, over the bridge) Gate checked wheelchairs had been sent to baggage claim. Got there around 0120. Still large queues but family have UK passports, I don't. My queue had about 20 people in it but only one officer. It took me almost an hour to get through (family had gone on to hotel with my bag by then.)
Gatwick, you are responsible for assistance under EU regulation and have screwed up royally here. We never saw anyone prepared to help two elderly passengers transit your maze. I am sending a complaint to Brussels and I sincerely hope they fine your ass*s off. There is no excuse for this. None.
Told to wait till after all other PAX deplaned and they would be assisted. About 0020 were told nobody had come yet and cockpit crew had requested expedite. Around 0045 told still nobody and those that could should make way to Immigration themselves. One other pax unable to do this, but we left and slowly made way to Immigration (from Gates 101-113, over the bridge) Gate checked wheelchairs had been sent to baggage claim. Got there around 0120. Still large queues but family have UK passports, I don't. My queue had about 20 people in it but only one officer. It took me almost an hour to get through (family had gone on to hotel with my bag by then.)
Gatwick, you are responsible for assistance under EU regulation and have screwed up royally here. We never saw anyone prepared to help two elderly passengers transit your maze. I am sending a complaint to Brussels and I sincerely hope they fine your ass*s off. There is no excuse for this. None.
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Complaining won't get you anywhere. LGW don't provide PRM assistance, their service partner does (is it OCS?). You'll simply be told you were off schedule, or they were not prior informed (ie 24hours earlier).
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750XL. EU Regulation 1107/2006 gives the airport the responsibility: vis
and
While they are allowed to contract it out, they retain responsibility under the regulation. If LGW wants to sue OCS (or whomever) to pay their fines, that's up to them - but they can't avoid responsibility.
also
So it's the CAA that is responsible for ensuring the airports meet their obligations, but I will certainly make sure DG-TREN is aware of my complaint.
and
The delay is irrelevant, there is no opt-out or 'extraordinary circumstances' provisions in this regulation.
Gatwick is responsible, has screwed up royally and is subject to the penalties in UK law.
The request for assistance was made in June 2013, and they provided it on the outbound flight.
The UK law in question (The Civil Aviation (Access to Air Travel for Disabled Persons and Persons with Reduced Mobility) Regulations 2007) simply sets out the penalties for breach of the EU regulation.
You know, it would have been nice if somebody said they were sorry …
(6) To achieve these aims, ensuring high quality assistance at airports should be the responsibility of a central body. As managing bodies of airports play a central role in providing services throughout their airports, they should be given this overall responsibility.
Article 7
Right to assistance at airports
1. When a disabled person or person with reduced mobility arrives at an airport for travel by air, the managing body of the airport shall be responsible for ensuring the provision of the assistance specified in Annex I in such a way that the person is able to take the flight for which he or she holds a reservation, provided that the notification of the person's particular needs for such assistance has been made to the air carrier or its agent or the tour operator concerned at least 48 hours before the published time of departure of the flight. This notification shall also cover a return flight, if the outward flight and the return flight have been contracted with the same air carrier.
Right to assistance at airports
1. When a disabled person or person with reduced mobility arrives at an airport for travel by air, the managing body of the airport shall be responsible for ensuring the provision of the assistance specified in Annex I in such a way that the person is able to take the flight for which he or she holds a reservation, provided that the notification of the person's particular needs for such assistance has been made to the air carrier or its agent or the tour operator concerned at least 48 hours before the published time of departure of the flight. This notification shall also cover a return flight, if the outward flight and the return flight have been contracted with the same air carrier.
also
(16) It is important that a disabled person or person with reduced mobility who considers that this Regulation has been infringed be able to bring the matter to the attention of the managing body of the airport or to the attention of the air carrier concerned, as the case may be. If the disabled person or person with reduced mobility cannot obtain satisfaction in such way, he or she should be free to make a complaint to the body or bodies designated to that end by the relevant Member State.
and
(18) Member States should lay down penalties applicable to infringements of this Regulation and ensure that those penalties are applied. The penalties, which could include ordering the payment of compensation to the person concerned, should be effective, proportionate and dissuasive.
Gatwick is responsible, has screwed up royally and is subject to the penalties in UK law.
The request for assistance was made in June 2013, and they provided it on the outbound flight.
The UK law in question (The Civil Aviation (Access to Air Travel for Disabled Persons and Persons with Reduced Mobility) Regulations 2007) simply sets out the penalties for breach of the EU regulation.
You know, it would have been nice if somebody said they were sorry …
Last edited by ExXB; 6th Jan 2014 at 14:39. Reason: added UK law reference
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At the airport I work at, PRM assistance has always been poor and the situation you describe is a daily occurrence, and I'm sure plenty of complaints have been sent away to various bodies - Things have never changed, though 
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Same story at the airport I work in (which is not EDI).
Confirmed Wheelchair bookings go unmet, or have passengers waiting for ages for a pick up, often in excess of an hour.
Trying to get a wheelchair to come and meet a PRM at a check in desk is an impossible task, again, 45 minutes is an average wait time, they are always sent down to the central area at the other end of the building. High Lift machines are nowhere to be found when they are needed, God help us when a flight goes off jetty unexpectedly.
Again, many, many complaints have been made by passengers, crew and airlines but not a single thing has been done, if anything, it's gotten worse, this Christmas was horrendous. Of all the services provided, this is one you'd think would never be short staffed or under equipped, but it is!
Confirmed Wheelchair bookings go unmet, or have passengers waiting for ages for a pick up, often in excess of an hour.
Trying to get a wheelchair to come and meet a PRM at a check in desk is an impossible task, again, 45 minutes is an average wait time, they are always sent down to the central area at the other end of the building. High Lift machines are nowhere to be found when they are needed, God help us when a flight goes off jetty unexpectedly.
Again, many, many complaints have been made by passengers, crew and airlines but not a single thing has been done, if anything, it's gotten worse, this Christmas was horrendous. Of all the services provided, this is one you'd think would never be short staffed or under equipped, but it is!
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It's somewhat ironic that the legacy airlines fought tooth and nail to prevent the airports from being given this responsibility. But the EU regulators (mostly the EP) insisted fearing if they didn't everyone would get the Cryanair (lack) of service. And now? Everyone gets the Cryanair level of service.
The regulation, and National law, provides for effective, proportionate, and dissuasive penalties. It's about time that these penalties are applied.
Also, give the responsibility back to the airlines. The EU/National regulators have no problem getting them to apply the regulations, including Cryanair type airlines.
The regulation, and National law, provides for effective, proportionate, and dissuasive penalties. It's about time that these penalties are applied.
Also, give the responsibility back to the airlines. The EU/National regulators have no problem getting them to apply the regulations, including Cryanair type airlines.
Paxing All Over The World
I know I'm too cynical for my socks but I'd say it's: Money.
Despite the fact that you can so easily gain customer 'brownie' points by doing this right and attract a whole family because they know the one person will be well cared for?
Also, this service cannot easily be fully allocated to others - there will be some central overhead. Accountants don't like central overheads that cannot be neatly palmed off. (Just a guess based on 34 years experience in the grown up world.
)
My mother is now too frail to travel by air any longer but I do recall the fine service she got at IOM and LHR in the 1990s, early 2000s. When I met her at, and then put her on, a flight at JNB (2002) the wheelchair assistance was tip-top. It was also good at LCY in about 2006.
I do hope you get them ExXB.
Despite the fact that you can so easily gain customer 'brownie' points by doing this right and attract a whole family because they know the one person will be well cared for?
Also, this service cannot easily be fully allocated to others - there will be some central overhead. Accountants don't like central overheads that cannot be neatly palmed off. (Just a guess based on 34 years experience in the grown up world.
)My mother is now too frail to travel by air any longer but I do recall the fine service she got at IOM and LHR in the 1990s, early 2000s. When I met her at, and then put her on, a flight at JNB (2002) the wheelchair assistance was tip-top. It was also good at LCY in about 2006.
I do hope you get them ExXB.
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Christmas Chaos LGW
ExXB,
I think you are legally correct but, as the volume of PRM traffic is low the airports are not properly focused on their obligations. By delegating responsibility to service providers they have moved this into a purely financial matter as PaxBoy notes.
The service providers get paid for every task, a cost met by the airport which is funded by general passenger charges levied from airlines. It is therefore not in the airport or airlines' interest to see improved service level and thus higher cost . To counter this allegation, I expect most airports impose a fine on the service providers where they fail to achieve defined service quality levels. This effectively passes the buck onto the service provider , OCS or whoever, to demonstrate that the airport has discharged its legal obligation. However, the service providers will accept those fines as a cost measured under commercial cost/ benefit criteria. Accordingly, at peak times or out of hours there will probably never be enough capacity to meet PRM needs.
The misinterpretation of the "rules" will continue to serve airport and airline well until EU decide to revisit this- however, there is much else that they also need to do.
Make contact with senior management at LGW in most polite way via e-mail.
I think you are legally correct but, as the volume of PRM traffic is low the airports are not properly focused on their obligations. By delegating responsibility to service providers they have moved this into a purely financial matter as PaxBoy notes.
The service providers get paid for every task, a cost met by the airport which is funded by general passenger charges levied from airlines. It is therefore not in the airport or airlines' interest to see improved service level and thus higher cost . To counter this allegation, I expect most airports impose a fine on the service providers where they fail to achieve defined service quality levels. This effectively passes the buck onto the service provider , OCS or whoever, to demonstrate that the airport has discharged its legal obligation. However, the service providers will accept those fines as a cost measured under commercial cost/ benefit criteria. Accordingly, at peak times or out of hours there will probably never be enough capacity to meet PRM needs.
The misinterpretation of the "rules" will continue to serve airport and airline well until EU decide to revisit this- however, there is much else that they also need to do.
Make contact with senior management at LGW in most polite way via e-mail.
Paxing All Over The World
In this article: BBC News - Gatwick Airport boss apologises over Christmas Eve chaos
I like the quote:
You notice that ... the actions of bosses ... does NOT apply to the CEO - the boss of the bosses. 
I like the quote:
The chief executive of Gatwick Airport has apologised to passengers after thousands of people had their Christmas travel plans disrupted. Stewart Wingate admitted a lot more "could and should" have been done for customers after a power cut threw the airport into chaos on Christmas Eve.
He said the actions of bosses "fell short" and would have an impact on the airport's reputation.
He said the actions of bosses "fell short" and would have an impact on the airport's reputation.