Question about legal definition of "flight time" for pax
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Question about legal definition of "flight time" for pax
O.K. guys and gals, to make a long story short, this is my gripe and query.
My partner and I booked a flight on a well-known ME carrier from ATH to CAI. Departure was listed as 13:30 hrs and original "flight arrival" time, was listed as 14:30 hrs (2 hr flight, DST in ATH makes for the time discrepancy).
Typically, we were fed late information on a drip-feed basis, that a flight delay was in the offing.
End of story was, flight was eventually listed for 16:30 hrs takeoff - 3 hours late. By my watch, actual takeoff was 16:35 hrs.
The driver fairly hammered the A321 into the air and back onto the ground (I reckoned we bounced 15' into the air on touchdown, and I now know why).
Bottom line is - because of the 3 hour delay in arrival at our destination, we missed a long-haul connecting flight that departed at 17:45 hrs - and had to fork out a substantial "no-show" penalty for the re-issue of tickets (not to mention a 12 hr wait in that cesspool of an airport, as well).
I investigated the average delay for this initial flight prior to booking - and it's around 30 mins. I thought allowing 3.25 hrs for a connecting flight was more than adequate.
Now comes the teeth-gnashing part. The ME airline in question has emailed me their recorded flight departure and arrival times as 16:34 and 17:26 hrs.
They have defined the "flight time" as 176 minutes - just 4 minutes short of being able to claim compensation under EC 261/2004 regulations.
Now, I know darn well, we did not arrive at the aerobridge until well after 17:30 hrs. We sure as hell can't leave the aircraft until the cabin doors are unlocked.
The FAA and ICAO definition of "flight time" is - "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing".
AFAIC, this is also the proper definition of "flight time" for pax.
On this basis, what chance do you reckon I have, in pressing for compensation from the ME carrier? - on the basis that the true flight time is when I can leave the aircraft at its destination? - which in this case, most certainly runs over the 3 hour time limit for the invoking of compensation under EC 261/2004?
(EC regulations state that the defining point for actual "delay", is arrival time at destination - not takeoff time).
Constructive comments and useful advice welcome.
My partner and I booked a flight on a well-known ME carrier from ATH to CAI. Departure was listed as 13:30 hrs and original "flight arrival" time, was listed as 14:30 hrs (2 hr flight, DST in ATH makes for the time discrepancy).
Typically, we were fed late information on a drip-feed basis, that a flight delay was in the offing.
End of story was, flight was eventually listed for 16:30 hrs takeoff - 3 hours late. By my watch, actual takeoff was 16:35 hrs.
The driver fairly hammered the A321 into the air and back onto the ground (I reckoned we bounced 15' into the air on touchdown, and I now know why).
Bottom line is - because of the 3 hour delay in arrival at our destination, we missed a long-haul connecting flight that departed at 17:45 hrs - and had to fork out a substantial "no-show" penalty for the re-issue of tickets (not to mention a 12 hr wait in that cesspool of an airport, as well).
I investigated the average delay for this initial flight prior to booking - and it's around 30 mins. I thought allowing 3.25 hrs for a connecting flight was more than adequate.
Now comes the teeth-gnashing part. The ME airline in question has emailed me their recorded flight departure and arrival times as 16:34 and 17:26 hrs.
They have defined the "flight time" as 176 minutes - just 4 minutes short of being able to claim compensation under EC 261/2004 regulations.
Now, I know darn well, we did not arrive at the aerobridge until well after 17:30 hrs. We sure as hell can't leave the aircraft until the cabin doors are unlocked.
The FAA and ICAO definition of "flight time" is - "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing".
AFAIC, this is also the proper definition of "flight time" for pax.
On this basis, what chance do you reckon I have, in pressing for compensation from the ME carrier? - on the basis that the true flight time is when I can leave the aircraft at its destination? - which in this case, most certainly runs over the 3 hour time limit for the invoking of compensation under EC 261/2004?
(EC regulations state that the defining point for actual "delay", is arrival time at destination - not takeoff time).
Constructive comments and useful advice welcome.
Last edited by onetrack; 12th Aug 2013 at 13:32. Reason: sp...
Your case for compensation under EU261 rests on you being able to prove that your flight arrived more than 3 hours late. That's the time the aircraft came to a stop on the stand, not the time you disembarked.
If the airline is denying that this arrival delay was more than 3 hours, you will have a hard job proving otherwise.
Sorry if that doesn't qualify as a "constructive comment or useful advice", just being realistic.
If the airline is denying that this arrival delay was more than 3 hours, you will have a hard job proving otherwise.
Sorry if that doesn't qualify as a "constructive comment or useful advice", just being realistic.
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Flight time has nothing to do with your claim.
Your are entitled to claim under EU261 if you arrive at your destination over 3 hours after the scheduled arrival time.
You reached your destination within 3 hours.
The legal document is the Technical Log (flight log), which for record keeping purposes only uses flight times.
My guess is they were the figures that you were given.
I would be very surprised if a court of law would judge on your side.
Your are entitled to claim under EU261 if you arrive at your destination over 3 hours after the scheduled arrival time.
You reached your destination within 3 hours.
The legal document is the Technical Log (flight log), which for record keeping purposes only uses flight times.
My guess is they were the figures that you were given.
I would be very surprised if a court of law would judge on your side.
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See here for a discussion on the Folkerks case which is partially relevant. In simple terms this ruling states that it is the delay at arrival at the final destination that is important. It also repeats 'three hours or more' a number of times.
So, if you were on a single ticket (which it doesn't sound like) it is the delay in arrival at your final destination that is important. If your ATH-CAI was ticketed separately then it is likely it is the delay at CAI that is applicable - as that is what you contracted for with that ME airline.
To me arrival means 'chocks-on' at the terminal building, or even possibly the time you were able to exit the aircraft. I also believe that the courts, lacking a clear definition in the airline's conditions of carriage, would concur that arrival cannot be defined as 'wheels-on-the-runway'.
However, even if you did have separate tickets, you may have a valid claim under Regulation 261. It all depends on the defininition of arrival time. This PPRuNe discussion may or may not be relevant.
You may also have a valid claim under the Montreal Convention for the losses you incurred due to the delay - i.e. your 'no-show' charges plus any incidental expenses you incurred while on the ground at CAI. This of course would be much more difficult to win - and likely would involve the courts.
What I would do is;
Respond politely to their message with a copy to the the Greek NEB pointing out that their conditions of carriage do not define arrival time as being the time the aircraft landed - and common sense suggest that the proper definition is the time the aircraft arrives at the terminal building.
I would also stipulate the real losses you have incurred due to the delay and the compensation due to you will ?? only partially offset your losses (or whatever is true)
If they demur I would then ask the Greek NEB to intervene on you behalf. Usually that should be enough.
So, if you were on a single ticket (which it doesn't sound like) it is the delay in arrival at your final destination that is important. If your ATH-CAI was ticketed separately then it is likely it is the delay at CAI that is applicable - as that is what you contracted for with that ME airline.
To me arrival means 'chocks-on' at the terminal building, or even possibly the time you were able to exit the aircraft. I also believe that the courts, lacking a clear definition in the airline's conditions of carriage, would concur that arrival cannot be defined as 'wheels-on-the-runway'.
However, even if you did have separate tickets, you may have a valid claim under Regulation 261. It all depends on the defininition of arrival time. This PPRuNe discussion may or may not be relevant.
You may also have a valid claim under the Montreal Convention for the losses you incurred due to the delay - i.e. your 'no-show' charges plus any incidental expenses you incurred while on the ground at CAI. This of course would be much more difficult to win - and likely would involve the courts.
What I would do is;
Respond politely to their message with a copy to the the Greek NEB pointing out that their conditions of carriage do not define arrival time as being the time the aircraft landed - and common sense suggest that the proper definition is the time the aircraft arrives at the terminal building.
I would also stipulate the real losses you have incurred due to the delay and the compensation due to you will ?? only partially offset your losses (or whatever is true)
If they demur I would then ask the Greek NEB to intervene on you behalf. Usually that should be enough.
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Thanks for the comments folks - that I did all find useful. I understand I'm pushing the proverbial uphill with a pointed stick, here - and even if the facts do clearly produce evidence of 3 hr or more delay, that I'll still be struggling to get any compensation.
ExXB - The initial flight was a single ticket flight. I booked the initial flight through Jetabroad online, and the DOH-PER legs with Qatar were booked separately through Zuji, online.
I have found law firms who specialise in taking on EC 261/2004 cases for a 25% cut - but they are all in Europe and the U.K. As an Australian citizen, I am led to understand that I have to initiate any legal action through the Australian courts.
I do not know of any Australian lawyers who specialise in taking on EC 261/2004 cases for a cut.
What I would like to know is where I can source the information about the precise time our flight arrived at the gate at CAI. The airline times emailed to me are takeoff and touchdown times, as I understand.
ExXB - The initial flight was a single ticket flight. I booked the initial flight through Jetabroad online, and the DOH-PER legs with Qatar were booked separately through Zuji, online.
I have found law firms who specialise in taking on EC 261/2004 cases for a 25% cut - but they are all in Europe and the U.K. As an Australian citizen, I am led to understand that I have to initiate any legal action through the Australian courts.
I do not know of any Australian lawyers who specialise in taking on EC 261/2004 cases for a cut.
What I would like to know is where I can source the information about the precise time our flight arrived at the gate at CAI. The airline times emailed to me are takeoff and touchdown times, as I understand.
What I would like to know is where I can source the information about the precise time our flight arrived at the gate at CAI. The airline times emailed to me are takeoff and touchdown times, as I understand.
By the way, in your original post you say that your 13:30 scheduled flight took off at 16:35. I don't know Athens Airport, but one could reasonably assume that the aircraft would have taken at least 5 minutes to pushback and taxi to the runway, even if it didn't have hold for takeoff. You don't quote the ATD (from the gate), but it can't therefore have been later than 16:30.
So it follows that the departure delay was no more than three hours and
driver fairly hammered the A321 into the air and back onto the ground
Good luck.
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ExXB - Thanks for the discussion and website links, particularly the Greek NEB site. That site has an EC 261/2004 regulation infringement complaint form that I will fill out and personally submit to the airline involved, as all other advice given to me has indicated is the best initial approach.
The Greek NEB site advises that if no answer is received, or my claim is rejected or any unsatisfactory compensation offered, then I can submit the form and my claim to the NEB, who will apparently investigate and take further action on my behalf.
Hopefully, I won't have to resort to lawsuits - but I can assure the airline involved, I'm known for my tenacity in pursuing complaints that I believe are legit.
I note the discussion thread about departure time is under the crewing forum, and appears to be related to employment conditions - and this is not necessarily related precisely to pax arrival/departure times.
What I hope I don't have to become embroiled in, is a landmark lawsuit that precisely defines pax "arrival time". The poorly-written EC regulations and the airlines conditions of carriage verbiage, all appear to me, to fail to clearly define this critical point.
The Greek NEB site advises that if no answer is received, or my claim is rejected or any unsatisfactory compensation offered, then I can submit the form and my claim to the NEB, who will apparently investigate and take further action on my behalf.
Hopefully, I won't have to resort to lawsuits - but I can assure the airline involved, I'm known for my tenacity in pursuing complaints that I believe are legit.
I note the discussion thread about departure time is under the crewing forum, and appears to be related to employment conditions - and this is not necessarily related precisely to pax arrival/departure times.
What I hope I don't have to become embroiled in, is a landmark lawsuit that precisely defines pax "arrival time". The poorly-written EC regulations and the airlines conditions of carriage verbiage, all appear to me, to fail to clearly define this critical point.
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DaveReidUK - I recall looking at my watch as we left the gate and it read 16:35. It was set accurately. This tends to agree with the airlines emailed departure time of 16:34. I don't recall the precise time we actually lifted off.
Yes, the taxi time at ATH probably was around 5 mins. There was no holding for takeoff, it was a fairly quiet afternoon, the weather was excellent, if a little gusty, and it was pretty obvious the driver was in a hurry.
However, I note that recorded flight times on the Flightaware site for this particular flight vary substantially - from an indicated 1:11 to 1:50 hrs.
I can currently only go on my watch times and the emailed departure and arrival times - and those times indicate a takeoff-to-touchdown time of around 1:52 to 1:55 hrs. This concurs with most other written advice stating that flight time is 1:55 to 2:00 hrs.
The point I am arguing is that the true definition of arrival time is touchdown time + taxiing time to the gate.
Yes, the taxi time at ATH probably was around 5 mins. There was no holding for takeoff, it was a fairly quiet afternoon, the weather was excellent, if a little gusty, and it was pretty obvious the driver was in a hurry.
However, I note that recorded flight times on the Flightaware site for this particular flight vary substantially - from an indicated 1:11 to 1:50 hrs.
I can currently only go on my watch times and the emailed departure and arrival times - and those times indicate a takeoff-to-touchdown time of around 1:52 to 1:55 hrs. This concurs with most other written advice stating that flight time is 1:55 to 2:00 hrs.
The point I am arguing is that the true definition of arrival time is touchdown time + taxiing time to the gate.
Paxing All Over The World
In recent discussion (in these forums) about arrival times, the figures were based on the 'Parking brake = Off' to 'Parking brake = On'.
The reason being that the action is noted electronically by the aircraft with the associated time. This action + time is also, for many carriers, immediately relayed (automatically) to the company so that their operations department and computers know the flight has 'arrived'.
Tthe figures were discussed in light of the predilection of one well known European LoCo to 'trumpet' their early arrival - whilst the machine is still taxying and, therefore, has not 'arrived'.
The point of this is that the company may know the time of touch down but they will also know the time of 'arrival'. Of course, you may then have a delay of 15 minutes before you can disembark, for whatever reason, and then you have to find out from the airport what happened! My guess in that situation, is that the airport will always point at the carrier and the carrier will point at the airport!
Do let us know what happens.
The reason being that the action is noted electronically by the aircraft with the associated time. This action + time is also, for many carriers, immediately relayed (automatically) to the company so that their operations department and computers know the flight has 'arrived'.
Tthe figures were discussed in light of the predilection of one well known European LoCo to 'trumpet' their early arrival - whilst the machine is still taxying and, therefore, has not 'arrived'.
The point of this is that the company may know the time of touch down but they will also know the time of 'arrival'. Of course, you may then have a delay of 15 minutes before you can disembark, for whatever reason, and then you have to find out from the airport what happened! My guess in that situation, is that the airport will always point at the carrier and the carrier will point at the airport!
Do let us know what happens.
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I seriously doubt this is the first time this question has come up. It is likely the NEBs have discussed this among themselves and have already made a determination.
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Hi, onetrack. Before I go any further, a disclaimer - I have a law degree and I'm an academic lawyer. I do not practice law.
I'm just trying to clear some facts up, initially. You say:
At what point did you find out about the delayed time of 16:30? Before or after you got to the airport?
I'm just trying to clear some facts up, initially. You say:
Departure was listed as 13:30 hrs and original "flight arrival" time, was listed as 14:30 hrs ... Typically, we were fed late information on a drip-feed basis, that a flight delay was in the offing.
End of story was, flight was eventually listed for 16:30 hrs takeoff
End of story was, flight was eventually listed for 16:30 hrs takeoff
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Regarding jurisdiction. I see no reason why you couldn't hire a European legal firm / company to make claims on your behalf under Regulation 261. In theory a claim could be made in any EU state - but I'm sure they will let you know if they can't handle your claim.
For a claim for damages under Warsaw/MC99 a suit may be brought against a carrier in the country: (1) of its incorporation, (2) of its principal place of business; (3) where the ticket was purchased, and (4) of destination of the passenger. Destination of course being CAI in this case as you had separate tickets. (For death and injury claims there is a fifth jurisdiction - the place of residence of the passenger subject to numerous exceptions).
For a claim for damages under Warsaw/MC99 a suit may be brought against a carrier in the country: (1) of its incorporation, (2) of its principal place of business; (3) where the ticket was purchased, and (4) of destination of the passenger. Destination of course being CAI in this case as you had separate tickets. (For death and injury claims there is a fifth jurisdiction - the place of residence of the passenger subject to numerous exceptions).
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Peakcrew - We arrived at ATH check-in at 10:30 hrs and waited 15 mins for the check-in to open. We were the first pax through the check-in. We went through security and got to the boarding gate at approximately 11:30 hrs.
Up until approximately 13:10 hrs, the ATH departure boards still had 13:30 hrs listed as departure time. After about 13:10, the boards went blank on this particular departure time.
I had my laptop with me and used the airport free wi-fi to Google the flight number. Google informed me that departure was now listed for 14:30 hrs.
At 13:25 hrs, the airline staff member at the boarding gate made an announcement of a 1 hr flight delay. We were offered a sandwich and soft drink voucher - which offer we took up.
We purchased and ate our food and drink, and returned through security to the boarding gate at around 14:00 hrs or just after. There was still no sign of any aircraft at the aerobridge.
I Googled the flight number again around 14:15 hrs, and found departure was now listed as 16:30 hrs.
At about 14:25 hrs, the airline staff at the boarding gate again announced a further 2 hrs delay - to 16:30 hrs.
I failed to check the airline website, because I was unaware they were running flight delay/cancellation notices on it - as I only found out much later.
I'm presuming that Google sources its flight timing info, directly from the airlines themselves, and on an immediate-flight-time-upgrade basis - as Google seems to be well ahead of the curve when it comes to accurate flight timing information.
Up until approximately 13:10 hrs, the ATH departure boards still had 13:30 hrs listed as departure time. After about 13:10, the boards went blank on this particular departure time.
I had my laptop with me and used the airport free wi-fi to Google the flight number. Google informed me that departure was now listed for 14:30 hrs.
At 13:25 hrs, the airline staff member at the boarding gate made an announcement of a 1 hr flight delay. We were offered a sandwich and soft drink voucher - which offer we took up.
We purchased and ate our food and drink, and returned through security to the boarding gate at around 14:00 hrs or just after. There was still no sign of any aircraft at the aerobridge.
I Googled the flight number again around 14:15 hrs, and found departure was now listed as 16:30 hrs.
At about 14:25 hrs, the airline staff at the boarding gate again announced a further 2 hrs delay - to 16:30 hrs.
I failed to check the airline website, because I was unaware they were running flight delay/cancellation notices on it - as I only found out much later.
I'm presuming that Google sources its flight timing info, directly from the airlines themselves, and on an immediate-flight-time-upgrade basis - as Google seems to be well ahead of the curve when it comes to accurate flight timing information.
The poorly-written EC regulations
).Compensation payable is dependent on the length of the arrival delay, and the latter is specifically defined as the difference between the scheduled time of arrival (STA) and the passenger's actual time of arrival (ATA) at the destination.
STA and ATA are universally accepted as the arrival time at the gate. Even the most inventive lawyer would be hard pressed to argue that the STA is time the aircraft should arrive at the gate but the ATA is the time it hits the runway.
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 12th Aug 2013 at 13:51.
Whilst I have no desire to send anyone away from pprune for any reason, have a look at another site - flyertalk - where contentious issues such as this are often discussed.
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Thanks, onetrack - I wasn't clear on that from you original post. In light of what you have say, I think it is clear-cut. Follow the complaints procedure initially (it will make an further action easier if you have done this), BUT beware of any time limits to bringing action in he court, just in case. I'd recommend getting in touch with one of the firms with a specialist in this area of law to ensure that any potential procedural pitfalls are pointed out to you early on. In these days of internet, it isn't going to be a problem, and a lot of them, at least in UK, will give an initial consultation for nothing. Ancient Observer also makes a good point - there will be other sites with lots of information on this.
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Slight thread drift but where do you get official landing times, i.e. that would have legal status? I’ve recently tried to get a LGW arrival time for a few weeks ago, not necessarily accurate to the minute, the airline won’t help and I suspect Flightstats etc. would not be considered official.
Surely this information must be available to the public somewhere, hopefully free! (Skinflint pensioner speaking).
Surely this information must be available to the public somewhere, hopefully free! (Skinflint pensioner speaking).
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As a middle aged cynic, Old Bristol Freighter (good name 
), I don't think any airline is going to give that information unless forced to. They know that it will 'be used in evidence against them'. 
Even 'freedom of information' won't count as they might think it commercial confidence. YET figures are published so someone has the data!
), I don't think any airline is going to give that information unless forced to. They know that it will 'be used in evidence against them'. Even 'freedom of information' won't count as they might think it commercial confidence. YET figures are published so someone has the data!
Slight thread drift but where do you get official landing times, i.e. that would have legal status? I’ve recently tried to get a LGW arrival time for a few weeks ago, not necessarily accurate to the minute, the airline won’t help and I suspect Flightstats etc. would not be considered official.
The airport will have captured that information (so that they can display "Landed 10:33" on the flight information screens) and Air Traffic Control will also have logged the runway movement and time.
Other possible sources are Mode S, ADS-B and ACARS.
Out of interest, what was the flight number and date?