Compensation For Long Delay
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Compensation For Long Delay
Long story short - delayed by more than 6 hours in taking off from LHR to JFK (tech problems intially, then BA very slow to produce a replacement 747).
BA say 'no compensation' because flight was not actually cancelled, but this seems to conflict with advice elsewhere that delay of over 5 hours qualifies for several hundred Euros in this scenario.
I wonder if this is a standard BA reaction, to deter people from pursuing claims. As a BA shareholder I approve of any attempt to keep costs down, but as a seriously p**d-off pax I feel offended by this dismissive attitude. Is there a low-stress way of pursuing this to some kind of sensible conclusion, or do I have to resign myself to endless legalistic wrangling?
BA say 'no compensation' because flight was not actually cancelled, but this seems to conflict with advice elsewhere that delay of over 5 hours qualifies for several hundred Euros in this scenario.
I wonder if this is a standard BA reaction, to deter people from pursuing claims. As a BA shareholder I approve of any attempt to keep costs down, but as a seriously p**d-off pax I feel offended by this dismissive attitude. Is there a low-stress way of pursuing this to some kind of sensible conclusion, or do I have to resign myself to endless legalistic wrangling?
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The air passenger's charter is freely available, Google it.
They got you there, and as you say the flight wasn't cancelled so how about just getting over your greed? Several hundred euros indeed. - Jesus. What a society we live in.
"Very slow to obtain a replacement 747". Do you really imagine that BA keep spare 747s just lying around idle and ready to go at the drop of a hat? Use your imagination for heaven's sake! Rustling up an unscheduled 747change, catering, crew etc isn't something that happens in minutes.
They got you there, and as you say the flight wasn't cancelled so how about just getting over your greed? Several hundred euros indeed. - Jesus. What a society we live in.
"Very slow to obtain a replacement 747". Do you really imagine that BA keep spare 747s just lying around idle and ready to go at the drop of a hat? Use your imagination for heaven's sake! Rustling up an unscheduled 747change, catering, crew etc isn't something that happens in minutes.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 27th Jul 2012 at 09:29.
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Hey, button mushroom, a little quick off the mark with your opinions there, I think.
I did say 'long story short'; you have chosen to attribute 'greed' where the true impact was a good deal of distress (and extra costs) associated with late arrival which I chose not to expose here because they are not relevant to the facts.
But I'm sure you feel better to have got it off your chest.
I did say 'long story short'; you have chosen to attribute 'greed' where the true impact was a good deal of distress (and extra costs) associated with late arrival which I chose not to expose here because they are not relevant to the facts.
But I'm sure you feel better to have got it off your chest.
Last edited by Yellow Son; 27th Jul 2012 at 10:38. Reason: typos
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Of all the pieces of EU legislation which weigh down the airlines, Regulation 261/2004 is probably the most ill-conceived. Because it was so badly drafted, it has been repeatedly challenged, and subsequent opinions from the European Court of Justice have only made it worse.
At its simplest level, it consists of two provisions – a duty of care in the case of schedule disruptions, extending to refreshments, meals and eventually overnight accommodation (I would hope that BA offered you this).
The second provision, of monetary compensation, was originally intended by the lawmakers as a deterrent, or a punishment, for perceived malpractice – bumping passengers because of overbooking or cancelling poorly-booked flights. This original intention has long been lost in subsequent interpretations of the Regulation. The latest of these rules that a long delay should be treated the same as a cancellation.
The compensation provision (but not the duty of care) does not apply in the case of ‘extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken’. Therein lies a licence for lawyers to print money.
Consider this: there might have been 300 passengers on your aircraft, another 300 on the return flight (which would have been similarly delayed). With a fixed compensation figure of €600 for flights over 3500km, that’s a potential exposure to the airline of a liability of €360,000 – just for one occurrence. What business can possibly live with risks like that?
At its simplest level, it consists of two provisions – a duty of care in the case of schedule disruptions, extending to refreshments, meals and eventually overnight accommodation (I would hope that BA offered you this).
The second provision, of monetary compensation, was originally intended by the lawmakers as a deterrent, or a punishment, for perceived malpractice – bumping passengers because of overbooking or cancelling poorly-booked flights. This original intention has long been lost in subsequent interpretations of the Regulation. The latest of these rules that a long delay should be treated the same as a cancellation.
The compensation provision (but not the duty of care) does not apply in the case of ‘extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken’. Therein lies a licence for lawyers to print money.
Consider this: there might have been 300 passengers on your aircraft, another 300 on the return flight (which would have been similarly delayed). With a fixed compensation figure of €600 for flights over 3500km, that’s a potential exposure to the airline of a liability of €360,000 – just for one occurrence. What business can possibly live with risks like that?
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Agaricus Bisporus, who may of course be in possession of all the facts about last Saturday's events, thinks I am wrong to say that BA were 'very slow to obtain a replacement 747'. No, of course I don't expect BA to have several spares hanging around. How they keep their schedule is not my business; the fact that they should keep to it is their business, and the means are for them to decide.
On this occasion, a large part of the eventual delay was down to the extended time spent sitting in the original aircraft whle the engineers tried to sort out what was wrong (initially reported to us as a crack in a fairing but clearly more than that), and what to do about it. As it happens, they didn't replace the crew, though I was surprised by that.
Yes, surprisingly enough, I am aware that there is a lot to do in replacing an aircraft. But since you choose to raise the topic of 'imagination', perhaps a little more imagination on the part of the people involved could have suggested an earlier start on getting the replacement prepped?
On this occasion, a large part of the eventual delay was down to the extended time spent sitting in the original aircraft whle the engineers tried to sort out what was wrong (initially reported to us as a crack in a fairing but clearly more than that), and what to do about it. As it happens, they didn't replace the crew, though I was surprised by that.
Yes, surprisingly enough, I am aware that there is a lot to do in replacing an aircraft. But since you choose to raise the topic of 'imagination', perhaps a little more imagination on the part of the people involved could have suggested an earlier start on getting the replacement prepped?
Last edited by Yellow Son; 27th Jul 2012 at 10:49.
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The SSK points out that the legislation is flawed. No surprise there - most legislation seems to be! But what seems to be happening here in this forum thread is that the discussion is taking its own path, away from what I had hoped to discover in my original question.
Yes, of course it would be expensive if every pax was paid compensation at these high rates. That's an argument that can justifiably form a thread of its own.
But my query was based on the fact that the legislation does exist, whether we approve of it or not; I hoped I might get some useful advice about how to take things forward.
Instead, sadly, I have somehow become the villain! What a pity, when every other discussion I have been involved with on PPrune has resulted in useful and constructive advice being passed back and forth between contributore. Still, like the airlines and their published departure times, I shouldn't expect 100% success rate.
Yes, of course it would be expensive if every pax was paid compensation at these high rates. That's an argument that can justifiably form a thread of its own.
But my query was based on the fact that the legislation does exist, whether we approve of it or not; I hoped I might get some useful advice about how to take things forward.
Instead, sadly, I have somehow become the villain! What a pity, when every other discussion I have been involved with on PPrune has resulted in useful and constructive advice being passed back and forth between contributore. Still, like the airlines and their published departure times, I shouldn't expect 100% success rate.
Last edited by Yellow Son; 27th Jul 2012 at 10:50.
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It's the nature of the beast. Forums are for discussion and, as I have found out to my cost, making ANY comments risk the possibility of being flamed. Had my fingers burned on the Flyer forum when they spotted I was a newbie despite having had thirty odd years experience of flying as a passenger. How dare I come on with a view having only posted once or twice! Now I take my chance then get my head down.
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I hoped I might get some useful advice about how to take things forward
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I think once the PPI boat has been docked for the last time, we can look forward to daytime adverts asking if your flight has ever been delayed. You may be entitled to compensation etc etc. I can hear it all now.
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whle the engineers tried to sort out what was wrong (initially reported to us as a crack in a fairing but clearly more than that), and what to do about it. As it happens, they didn't replace the crew, though I was surprised by that
What the hell do you mean "reported to us....but clearly more than that"?
It's that word "reported" that makes me want to reach for a club. The engineers(s) were somewhere in the bowels of one of the most complex machines on the planet, to find what was causing a fault indication. It's a complex process, and as professionals they would make sure that anything they did find was not concealing something else. Your safety depends on their thoroughness.
They were probably keeping in touch with the crew, not least to keep you informed rather than just sitting there nursing your many grievances. And the crew were passing on information as they got it, and good for them, so that you had some idea of what was going on.
You make it sound as they they were "reporting" to you as though you were somehow supervising their work. And then there is your petulant little phrase "clearly more than that". Do you really believe that they were with-holding some important information from you, just to annoy you? You find a fault, eg a cracked fairing, then you look for what made that happen. It can be a long process, and you are alive because engineers do that.
Others have commented, rightly, on the stupidity of expecting the B747 fairy to produce "a replacement 747" at a couple of hours notice.
I make no apologies for this ad hominem comment; I wish you luck in your pursuit of money and if you get any, which I hope you don't, I hope it chokes you. The airline got you there safely, and that requires the combined efforts of hundreds of people, yes, hundreds. It's a pity that their efforts are wasted on people who only see "Compinsayshun" whenever the opportunity offers.
I wonder if you are a banker? You sound a wit like one?
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What a spiteful set of outbursts I have sparked here. Sorry, Capot, if plain English is not to your taste, but I chose my words with care. Although the standard of intercomm wasn't great, the story as I understood it was that initially a crack had been spotted and that at some time later things were found to be worse - either the crack was worse than they thought, or another component was also found to be faulty, it wasn't easy to hear.
These facts were quite literally 'reported to us' by the captain over the intercom, as they emerged. How else am I supposed to have expressed that? I wrote that it was 'quite clearly more than that' because the captain said so! What do you find 'petulant' about that?
Perhaps English is not your native language? That might explain why your nickname appears to be that of a french contraceptive.
I flew professionally for long enough to know that things break, and can be complicated, and slow, to fix. I merely set out the circumstances of this particular case, and have been saddened by the flood of off-subject bile that has resulted.
Your grotesque rant may have made you feel better, but what I said in an earlier post to another 'outraged' contributor still applies
" - a little quick off the mark with your opinions there, I think . . . you have chosen to attribute 'greed' where the true impact was a good deal of distress (and extra costs) associated with late arrival which I chose not to expose here because they are not relevant to the facts."
It's clear from your comments that you are closely associated with the industry. Not in customer relations, I imagine. But if your way of expressing yourself is to describe as 'stupid' someone whom you don't agree with - and to hope they choke! - then for all our sakes it's to be hoped you're not flight deck crew.
These facts were quite literally 'reported to us' by the captain over the intercom, as they emerged. How else am I supposed to have expressed that? I wrote that it was 'quite clearly more than that' because the captain said so! What do you find 'petulant' about that?
Perhaps English is not your native language? That might explain why your nickname appears to be that of a french contraceptive.
I flew professionally for long enough to know that things break, and can be complicated, and slow, to fix. I merely set out the circumstances of this particular case, and have been saddened by the flood of off-subject bile that has resulted.
Your grotesque rant may have made you feel better, but what I said in an earlier post to another 'outraged' contributor still applies
" - a little quick off the mark with your opinions there, I think . . . you have chosen to attribute 'greed' where the true impact was a good deal of distress (and extra costs) associated with late arrival which I chose not to expose here because they are not relevant to the facts."
It's clear from your comments that you are closely associated with the industry. Not in customer relations, I imagine. But if your way of expressing yourself is to describe as 'stupid' someone whom you don't agree with - and to hope they choke! - then for all our sakes it's to be hoped you're not flight deck crew.
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I'm sorry, sunshine, you nailed your colours to the mast with your first post;
Of course you're the villain!
And then you said
What on earth did you mean by that? The time was spent trying to fix the aircraft while you sat in it; how did that cause a large part of the eventual delay?
Yes, well, sure you did. In that case, why do you find it difficult to understand why seeking advice on how to get your compinsayshun when your airline found a fault, took some trouble to fix it, and flew you safe and sound to where you wanted to go, gets peoples' backs up?
PS. I've just realised why, it's the thought of those several hundred Euros, of course. Funny how greed can drive people, isn't it?
Is there a low-stress way of pursuing this to some kind of sensible conclusion, or do I have to resign myself to endless legalistic wrangling?
And then you said
a large part of the eventual delay was down to the extended time spent sitting in the original aircraft while the engineers tried to sort out what was wrong
I flew professionally for long enough to know that things break, and can be complicated, and slow, to fix.
PS. I've just realised why, it's the thought of those several hundred Euros, of course. Funny how greed can drive people, isn't it?
Last edited by Capot; 27th Jul 2012 at 17:31.
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Get's peoples backs up? No, just some people with self control issues. Here's a thought - if I really was the self-absorbed type you accuse me of being, I'd be trying my best to stop your abuse. As it is, I'll just assume you've had a bad day.
Since you clearly don't understand what is written there's no point in continuing explaining the full facts of the case to you. Try sleeping it off. This link might help you Cyberbullying: cyberbullies on the Internet
Since you clearly don't understand what is written there's no point in continuing explaining the full facts of the case to you. Try sleeping it off. This link might help you Cyberbullying: cyberbullies on the Internet
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OK, You Can Have The Bat And Ball
I started this thread because:
a. I understood that there was a probable entitlement under EU regulations to some kind of compensation for a very long delay my wife and I had experienced
b. BA weren’t being forthcoming about it
c. So I was hoping for advice as to what to do next.
The gist of the replies seems to be that there shouldn’t be an entitlement, but that even if there is I am wrong to pursue it. Well, people are entitled to their opinions, even if they do express them intemperately, distorting and/or misunderstanding what I have written and using personal abuse. It’s disappointing, though, that the original question has not received a sensible answer, but it’s clearly time for me to give up hoping.
So I will leave it to the trolls to have the last word,which I am sure is important to them. Perhaps they will take the opportunity to explain exactly what it is in what I have said that is factually incorrect.
a. I understood that there was a probable entitlement under EU regulations to some kind of compensation for a very long delay my wife and I had experienced
b. BA weren’t being forthcoming about it
c. So I was hoping for advice as to what to do next.
The gist of the replies seems to be that there shouldn’t be an entitlement, but that even if there is I am wrong to pursue it. Well, people are entitled to their opinions, even if they do express them intemperately, distorting and/or misunderstanding what I have written and using personal abuse. It’s disappointing, though, that the original question has not received a sensible answer, but it’s clearly time for me to give up hoping.
So I will leave it to the trolls to have the last word,which I am sure is important to them. Perhaps they will take the opportunity to explain exactly what it is in what I have said that is factually incorrect.
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I would assume that since the airline got you to where you wanted to go then you have no claim of compensation at all.
Presumably at some point someone gave you refreshment vouchers to use in the terminal. That is all they need to do, with the amount going up every so often. Only if the flight looks like it's not happening do they start looking to rebook you or arrange hotel accommodation. If they cancel the flight and you chose not to travel at all then you would get a refund.
Why do you feel as though BA should essentially give you a free ride to New York? They delayed you, they didn't throw you off due to overbooking or cancel the flight and run off with your money. Many people on the aircraft probably paid "several hundred Euro" for the flight, it's nonsense to suggest they are just given that money back.
Presumably at some point someone gave you refreshment vouchers to use in the terminal. That is all they need to do, with the amount going up every so often. Only if the flight looks like it's not happening do they start looking to rebook you or arrange hotel accommodation. If they cancel the flight and you chose not to travel at all then you would get a refund.
Why do you feel as though BA should essentially give you a free ride to New York? They delayed you, they didn't throw you off due to overbooking or cancel the flight and run off with your money. Many people on the aircraft probably paid "several hundred Euro" for the flight, it's nonsense to suggest they are just given that money back.
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I simply cannot understand what, Yellow Son, you want to be compensated FOR!
Were you financially worse off? Did you miss a date with a lovely lady (who took exception to that?) Didn't you build any slack into your schedule (as most do?) Where's the beef? Oh - or are you just a child of the "compensation culture" who believes that whatever goes wrong someone should pay - you presumably?
I well recall in about 1983 an American gentleman - er, no, male person - shouting and complaining in a similar situation to the one you have presented here. A number of people asked him what he would have the airline / captain / engineers do? He said - "get this thing flying!"
I managed to quieten him by telling him that the Captain was being paid a good deal of money to "get this thing in the air" and regardless of the reason, hangover, headache, faulty engine or whatever if he wasn't happy about so doing I was with him.
May I respectfully suggest that as you claim to be have been a "professional" aviator, you demonstrate little understanding of the disciplines and pressures of the business.
And, for the record, I am not nor have been a "professional" though I am an engineer andI have many hours as a PPL, but I have been flying commercially as SLF since 1951! Try getting upset back then about a six hour delay!
Were you financially worse off? Did you miss a date with a lovely lady (who took exception to that?) Didn't you build any slack into your schedule (as most do?) Where's the beef? Oh - or are you just a child of the "compensation culture" who believes that whatever goes wrong someone should pay - you presumably?
I well recall in about 1983 an American gentleman - er, no, male person - shouting and complaining in a similar situation to the one you have presented here. A number of people asked him what he would have the airline / captain / engineers do? He said - "get this thing flying!"
I managed to quieten him by telling him that the Captain was being paid a good deal of money to "get this thing in the air" and regardless of the reason, hangover, headache, faulty engine or whatever if he wasn't happy about so doing I was with him.
May I respectfully suggest that as you claim to be have been a "professional" aviator, you demonstrate little understanding of the disciplines and pressures of the business.
And, for the record, I am not nor have been a "professional" though I am an engineer andI have many hours as a PPL, but I have been flying commercially as SLF since 1951! Try getting upset back then about a six hour delay!
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Assumptions . . .
Edi Local says "I would assume that since the airline got you to where you wanted to go then you have no claim of compensation at all."
Well, at the simplest level, I was involved in extra costs, but there were several other personal implications that are no business of anyone on this website. So I'm not sure that your assumption is valid - isn't there a saying in the business about assuming versus checking?
However, the main point is that EU legislation exists which - apparently - places on the airline a responsibility which is exactly what you say is unreasonable. In other words, your assumption doesn't match my understanding of the legal position. It may be 'nonsense to suggest' that BA should give the money back (or a fraction of it), but please bear in mind that the suggestion isn't mine, but the legislators'. As it happens, I have some sympathy with the argument that it is a badly-targeted piece of legislation; but since it does exist, I am struggling to see why I should ignore it.
Well, at the simplest level, I was involved in extra costs, but there were several other personal implications that are no business of anyone on this website. So I'm not sure that your assumption is valid - isn't there a saying in the business about assuming versus checking?
However, the main point is that EU legislation exists which - apparently - places on the airline a responsibility which is exactly what you say is unreasonable. In other words, your assumption doesn't match my understanding of the legal position. It may be 'nonsense to suggest' that BA should give the money back (or a fraction of it), but please bear in mind that the suggestion isn't mine, but the legislators'. As it happens, I have some sympathy with the argument that it is a badly-targeted piece of legislation; but since it does exist, I am struggling to see why I should ignore it.
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The amount of compensation to which you are entitled depends on the length of your journey and how long a delay you suffer.
In the case of delays of two hours on a journey of up to 1,500km you should be eligible for free meals and refreshments and two phone calls, emails or faxes.
For a journey of between 1,500km and 3,500km you must be delayed by three hours for this entitlement, and if your journey is 3,500km or more the delay must be at least four hours.
If you are delayed by five hours or overnight on any flight you will also be entitled to hotel accommodation. If you decide not to travel you will be entitled to a full refund of your ticket price and a free flight back to your original starting point.
If you are not offered these you should complain to the airline operating the flight.
In the case of delays of two hours on a journey of up to 1,500km you should be eligible for free meals and refreshments and two phone calls, emails or faxes.
For a journey of between 1,500km and 3,500km you must be delayed by three hours for this entitlement, and if your journey is 3,500km or more the delay must be at least four hours.
If you are delayed by five hours or overnight on any flight you will also be entitled to hotel accommodation. If you decide not to travel you will be entitled to a full refund of your ticket price and a free flight back to your original starting point.
If you are not offered these you should complain to the airline operating the flight.
If your flight is cancelled or you are denied boarding because it is overbooked, you will be entitled to compensation unless the airline can prove this was a result of "extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken".
These could include things like strikes, bad weather and political instability.
If the airline is to blame you will be automatically entitled to a full refund and a return flight to the first point of departure, or to have your journey rerouted.
Compensation for a cancelled flight varies depending on the length of your flight and how long your arrival at your destination is delayed as a result of you being rerouted. The amount to which you are entitled is as follows::
· €125 (£99) on a journey of up to 1,500km delayed by up to two hours
· €250 on a journey of up to 1,500km delayed for more than two hours
· €200 on a journey of 1,500km-3,500km delayed by up to three hours
· €400 on a journey of 1,500km-3,500km delayed by more than three hours
· €300 on a journey of more than 3,500km delayed by up to four hours
· €600 on a journey of more than 3,500km delayed by more than four hours
These could include things like strikes, bad weather and political instability.
If the airline is to blame you will be automatically entitled to a full refund and a return flight to the first point of departure, or to have your journey rerouted.
Compensation for a cancelled flight varies depending on the length of your flight and how long your arrival at your destination is delayed as a result of you being rerouted. The amount to which you are entitled is as follows::
· €125 (£99) on a journey of up to 1,500km delayed by up to two hours
· €250 on a journey of up to 1,500km delayed for more than two hours
· €200 on a journey of 1,500km-3,500km delayed by up to three hours
· €400 on a journey of 1,500km-3,500km delayed by more than three hours
· €300 on a journey of more than 3,500km delayed by up to four hours
· €600 on a journey of more than 3,500km delayed by more than four hours
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Thanks, Mutt. Pleasant change to have a non-ranting response.
My original query followed advice I had found by Googling eg 'Which' and other sources, which puts a different interpretation on things from yours. There are several references to these regulations applying to delays as well as cancellations; though I gather that the airlines are not happy about this, and legal wrangling continues. Of course, my understanding could be wrong.
Just to be clear, we were indeed fed and watered while were waiting (I don't think I've said or even implied otherwise). We did suffer a good deal of consequential loss due to our late arrival, but my understanding is that the detail of this is not strictly relevant since it is subsumed within a blanket figure imposed by EU regulations (not one dreamed up by me).
My original query followed advice I had found by Googling eg 'Which' and other sources, which puts a different interpretation on things from yours. There are several references to these regulations applying to delays as well as cancellations; though I gather that the airlines are not happy about this, and legal wrangling continues. Of course, my understanding could be wrong.
Just to be clear, we were indeed fed and watered while were waiting (I don't think I've said or even implied otherwise). We did suffer a good deal of consequential loss due to our late arrival, but my understanding is that the detail of this is not strictly relevant since it is subsumed within a blanket figure imposed by EU regulations (not one dreamed up by me).