LHR Shame on you!
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We had a terrible time at T4 having arrived from st maarten via CDG. Having literally just stepped foot off the air bridge two security guards immediatlly and aggresively ask for passports when nearly 5 metres behind them you can see the passport control desks. Oh and theres only two open with two massive ques and several closed desks.
Then having finally passed through the calamity of arrivals you walk through the middle of a corridor lined with security men with their arms folded giving you the "stare" as if you're on deathrow. Welcome home......
Then having finally passed through the calamity of arrivals you walk through the middle of a corridor lined with security men with their arms folded giving you the "stare" as if you're on deathrow. Welcome home......
Paxing All Over The World
LHR will continue to make money because of where it is and that pax, either, go through it rarely or the regulars who put up with it due to location. The rest go elsewhere, but there are always new generations of pax willing to try it.
radeng
It is just that, poor mgmt. Simple example:
Last Saturday later afternoon. The T3 car park had long queues to get in (it was that time of day) and having parked, I was reminded about the penny pinching that went on in the construction. There are only four lifts for the five storey park. I did not count the spaces on a floor but there is obviously more than 250 - so at least 1,250 spaces. The lifts are always full and people wanting departures, get in them when they are going up, so wasting more time. You all know how it works. (or doesn't work)
So I looked at the space available and each tower could easily have had three lifts each not two, by making the towers wider as the ground space is available, but why not four each side? Currently, if they lose one lift - they lose 25% of capacity. Since the mgmt know that losing one runway is 50% of capacity - and the problems that produces ... but No. Saving money at construction, on a project with a 20 year life span, is far more important. I see this constantly in many companies, not just airports.
BAA saved money and the cost of installing more lifts now would be massive. So, one can say, that they cannot even make the lifts run on time.
radeng
All really down to the greed of a poor management
Last Saturday later afternoon. The T3 car park had long queues to get in (it was that time of day) and having parked, I was reminded about the penny pinching that went on in the construction. There are only four lifts for the five storey park. I did not count the spaces on a floor but there is obviously more than 250 - so at least 1,250 spaces. The lifts are always full and people wanting departures, get in them when they are going up, so wasting more time. You all know how it works. (or doesn't work)
So I looked at the space available and each tower could easily have had three lifts each not two, by making the towers wider as the ground space is available, but why not four each side? Currently, if they lose one lift - they lose 25% of capacity. Since the mgmt know that losing one runway is 50% of capacity - and the problems that produces ... but No. Saving money at construction, on a project with a 20 year life span, is far more important. I see this constantly in many companies, not just airports.
BAA saved money and the cost of installing more lifts now would be massive. So, one can say, that they cannot even make the lifts run on time.
Last edited by PAXboy; 16th Sep 2011 at 00:37. Reason: typos.
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Having only been through T5 at Heathrow I've never had any real problems with it and although the Bloody Awful Airports (BAA) comment is true to some extent lets not forget little SOU, not the most spacious or well facilitated of airports but it is so quick and easy to travel through and the staff are friendly and useful. The best part is how you can be in a Taxi on your way about 10-15mins after getting off the plane! 
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So you believe that the number of lifts is an indicator of the quality of an airport?
When was the carpark built, I guessing it was built in some earlier time when traffic was less.
When was the carpark built, I guessing it was built in some earlier time when traffic was less.
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The multi storey at T3 was demolished and rebuilt in 2006/7. It was moved to make way for the new T3 forecourt. However anything in the central area is space constrained.
Paxing All Over The World
Jarvy As SOE has said, the car park in question is less than five years old and replaced a VERY old one. THis park was built, long after T5 construction was under way and meant to be part of the wholesale redevelopment of Terminals 1/2/3. For example, T2 is curently closed and being completed replaced.
So, Yes, I am suggesting that a brand new car park being designed in the 21st century, for more than 1,250 vehicles, for people who are going to use trolleys and roller bags and baby carriages - needs more than four lifts. If losing one lift (25% of your capacity) is considered acceptable - then they do not know what they are doing.
I should say that I spent 27 years in I.T. and telecommunications, providing business critical services. For example, at one client (also in transport but not airports) I had to ensure 100% redundancy of service. I've worked in the financial district, so calculating what happens if 25% of the service fails - is something I know about. Adding more lifts is just about the easiest thing to do. When they all work, you have a great service and when one of them fails, you still have a good service.
I have worked in service industries for 34 years.
So, Yes, I am suggesting that a brand new car park being designed in the 21st century, for more than 1,250 vehicles, for people who are going to use trolleys and roller bags and baby carriages - needs more than four lifts. If losing one lift (25% of your capacity) is considered acceptable - then they do not know what they are doing.
I should say that I spent 27 years in I.T. and telecommunications, providing business critical services. For example, at one client (also in transport but not airports) I had to ensure 100% redundancy of service. I've worked in the financial district, so calculating what happens if 25% of the service fails - is something I know about. Adding more lifts is just about the easiest thing to do. When they all work, you have a great service and when one of them fails, you still have a good service.
I have worked in service industries for 34 years.
Last edited by PAXboy; 16th Sep 2011 at 00:29. Reason: Typo.
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"We had a terrible time at T4 having arrived from st maarten via CDG. Having literally just stepped foot off the air bridge two security guards immediatlly and aggresively ask for passports when nearly 5 metres behind them you can see the passport control desks."
They were probably doing a magnificent job of stopping umpteem illegal immigrants from getting into the UK and then to be given homes and money for the rest of their lives out of our taxes.!
The reason its done at the aircraft door is so they cant rip up their passports and swill them down the first toilet they come to then claim asylum
They were probably doing a magnificent job of stopping umpteem illegal immigrants from getting into the UK and then to be given homes and money for the rest of their lives out of our taxes.!
The reason its done at the aircraft door is so they cant rip up their passports and swill them down the first toilet they come to then claim asylum
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T5 tends not to be too bad
T3 the other week. Bussed from plane, a walk followed by a 45 minute queue at immigration. Still the luggage was waiting for us already so what you lose on immigration you sort of make back again.
Just too many people for too small an airport.
T3 the other week. Bussed from plane, a walk followed by a 45 minute queue at immigration. Still the luggage was waiting for us already so what you lose on immigration you sort of make back again.
Just too many people for too small an airport.
It's poor. I live in Asia now and have to listen to accounts of when my colleagues take their first trip to the UK and the first thing they see is T3! Not a great impression. Compared with the big Asian airports such as Hong Kong, Singapore, Bangkok, Seoul, it's third world. Even provincial airports in China such as Hangzhou, Guangzhou and Chegdu beat it.
Indeed - shame!
Indeed - shame!
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The reason its done at the aircraft door is so they cant rip up their passports and swill them down the first toilet they come to then claim asylum
It's not as if planes don't have lavs......
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The reason its done at the aircraft door is so they cant rip up their passports and swill them down the first toilet they come to then claim asylum
Paxing All Over The World
They do try and lose the paperwork on board. A relative of mine used to work for the Border Agency. Another reason to be standing close to the disembarking pax is that of surprise. The pax are not expecting to be watched at that point and may be off their guard.
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Paxboy, I have spent my life around transport and service industries so know abit more than you seem to give me credit for.
A friend arrived here in New York via Newark yesterday evening, 1 1/2 hours waiting at immigration with only 4 lanes open. Normal here but if you try and complain its all because of security don't you know. The longest wait at LHR has been about 15 mins. Lucky maybe be speak as I find.
The solution is much bigger than just putting on a few more staff. it includes new bigger airports and better approach (and usage) to public transport. Not going to happen in my life time, to many nimbys and a sure fire vote losser.
We can all talk about nice new airports that seem to be just right. A few weeks ago we went to Indianapolis Airport, nice new with no lines and a short walk to get the hire car. Only problem is its like that because it doesn't have any traffic and better yet no international flights.
A friend arrived here in New York via Newark yesterday evening, 1 1/2 hours waiting at immigration with only 4 lanes open. Normal here but if you try and complain its all because of security don't you know. The longest wait at LHR has been about 15 mins. Lucky maybe be speak as I find.
The solution is much bigger than just putting on a few more staff. it includes new bigger airports and better approach (and usage) to public transport. Not going to happen in my life time, to many nimbys and a sure fire vote losser.
We can all talk about nice new airports that seem to be just right. A few weeks ago we went to Indianapolis Airport, nice new with no lines and a short walk to get the hire car. Only problem is its like that because it doesn't have any traffic and better yet no international flights.
Thousands of people may be employed by the Borders Agency at Heathrow but sadly they do little or no work in the true sense which is why the organisation is so carp at delivering the services we taxpayers are paying it to do.
all imho of course...................
all imho of course...................
Paxing All Over The World
Thanks for the background Jarvy, I didn't make any assumptions about you - other than that you might not be familair with the new T3 car park. This thread is commenting on several items about LHR, my 2 cents was just the car park. It is generally understood that LHR is a mess that the politicians dare not touch (over the past 30 years) and there is little that ANY owner can do to rectify it, other than level it.
I am looking forward to seeing the new T2 - because they are building it from scratch and (within confines of space) will be able to do anything in three dimensions. The brand new, built from scratch T4 opened in 1986 and not many people liked it. The brand new, built from scratch T5 opened in 2008 and it had (has?) problems. So I'm not expecting much from the new T2!
I am looking forward to seeing the new T2 - because they are building it from scratch and (within confines of space) will be able to do anything in three dimensions. The brand new, built from scratch T4 opened in 1986 and not many people liked it. The brand new, built from scratch T5 opened in 2008 and it had (has?) problems. So I'm not expecting much from the new T2!
I'm flying back to UK from HKG for Christmas - have chosen flights that will fly into MAN. I despise LHR and avoid it at all costs. If HKG, Beijing, Singers &c can do good airports (& customs / Immigration) why not LHR?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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When I flew for a Middle Eastern airline I had to wait an hour at Frankfurt whilst engineers unblocked a toilet or two on the aircraft, that had been stuffed tight with documentation, before we could leave for Paris!
Possibly the Airbridge is not considered UK territory? If they stop an illegal in the airbridge maybe they haven't 'landed' so may not have the same rights as passengers who make it to the arrivals building?
Possibly the Airbridge is not considered UK territory? If they stop an illegal in the airbridge maybe they haven't 'landed' so may not have the same rights as passengers who make it to the arrivals building?
Paxing All Over The World
parabellum You are in the right area. As I understand it, if UKBA ask questions first, then they have the legal upper hand. The numbers of people who try to blag their way in are high so some flights are met at the gate to be pre-emptive.
On one occaision, I disembarked at LHR to find my cousin on duty on the airbridge. The ground crew got jittery when they saw us talking - as they thought that they may have inadvertently brought in an undesirable (for which they would be charged). They had not seen us embrace before we started talking!!
On one occaision, I disembarked at LHR to find my cousin on duty on the airbridge. The ground crew got jittery when they saw us talking - as they thought that they may have inadvertently brought in an undesirable (for which they would be charged). They had not seen us embrace before we started talking!!
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On T5, to be fair although there were some pretty significant teething problems when it opened (for which some BA heads rolled), those have now been addressed, and using T5 is generally not a bad experience, at least compared to the other teminals. I have never had to queue more than 5 or 10 minutes for security, even when not entitled to use Fast Track.
A couple of issues remain though:
Immigration: you can still get big queues even at T5. Other terminals are even worse ... apparently the non-EU queue at T3 this morning was massive. They need to get more IRIS readers and equipment to read the machine-readable passports and - just as important - they need to keep them operational. Last few times I've been through LHR the IRIS machines have been shut. (They also need to improve signage: lots of time wasted at IRIS machines behind people trying to use them when they're not registered. D'oh!) But I have to say that JFK is worse, at least for non-US passport holders.
Stands: it's still way too common to get to LHR on BA and to park up away from the terminal and be bussed to the teminal. This was supposed to end when T5 came on line. Why is it still happening?
I agree with the comment about getting to the lounges - entrance to the BA lounge at T5 could be right after security (at the "far" end of T5) but you have to slog through the shops on two floors to get to it (unless you have access to the Concorde Room). Crazy.
Another thing that's bad about LHR (all terminals) is that tragic little duty free shop that you have to go through between customs and the exit to the arrivals hall. OK, it doesn't hold you up at all, but it stinks of cheap perfume, it's a tawdry reminder that all BAA thinks about is maximising revenue, and it's a bad advertisement for the UK. It's depressing. I can't think of any other airport I've been in that has that.
A couple of issues remain though:
Immigration: you can still get big queues even at T5. Other terminals are even worse ... apparently the non-EU queue at T3 this morning was massive. They need to get more IRIS readers and equipment to read the machine-readable passports and - just as important - they need to keep them operational. Last few times I've been through LHR the IRIS machines have been shut. (They also need to improve signage: lots of time wasted at IRIS machines behind people trying to use them when they're not registered. D'oh!) But I have to say that JFK is worse, at least for non-US passport holders.
Stands: it's still way too common to get to LHR on BA and to park up away from the terminal and be bussed to the teminal. This was supposed to end when T5 came on line. Why is it still happening?
I agree with the comment about getting to the lounges - entrance to the BA lounge at T5 could be right after security (at the "far" end of T5) but you have to slog through the shops on two floors to get to it (unless you have access to the Concorde Room). Crazy.
Another thing that's bad about LHR (all terminals) is that tragic little duty free shop that you have to go through between customs and the exit to the arrivals hall. OK, it doesn't hold you up at all, but it stinks of cheap perfume, it's a tawdry reminder that all BAA thinks about is maximising revenue, and it's a bad advertisement for the UK. It's depressing. I can't think of any other airport I've been in that has that.
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They need to get more IRIS readers and equipment to read the machine-readable passports and - just as important - they need to keep them operational. Last few times I've been through LHR the IRIS machines have been shut. (They also need to improve signage: lots of time wasted at IRIS machines behind people trying to use them when they're not registered. D'oh!)
I came through Gatwick on Sunday and went looking for the IRIS readers and was told "they were withdrawn months ago"