BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions V
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@Betty Girl
I think numerous people are fed=up with Miss M, not because of her opinions and comments, but because she is a dyed-in-the-wool revisionist i.e. she is trying to re-write history to suit herself.
If you look back over her posts, she will say - at spaced intervals -
1) BA is going to cut our wages
2)BA will leave us sitting at home with no work
3) BA unilaterally cancelled the facilities agreement
just to pick up on the latest bunch.
People will then come in and refute this nonsense with concrete quotes/examples of where she is wrong and ask her to prove differently and then she goes quiet - never any response to these direct challenges.
Then three months or so later, up she pops again and re-states - with no shame- that BA is going to cut CC wages, leave you sitting at home etc etc.
The aim can only be to wear people down so that her "true version" is the last left standing, but that doesn't really stand true in the era of search engines which re-gurgitate everything with the search criteria.
Her other views have undoubtedly mellowed over the last eighteen months but she would still prefer BASSA to come out the undisputed winner.
I think numerous people are fed=up with Miss M, not because of her opinions and comments, but because she is a dyed-in-the-wool revisionist i.e. she is trying to re-write history to suit herself.
If you look back over her posts, she will say - at spaced intervals -
1) BA is going to cut our wages
2)BA will leave us sitting at home with no work
3) BA unilaterally cancelled the facilities agreement
just to pick up on the latest bunch.
People will then come in and refute this nonsense with concrete quotes/examples of where she is wrong and ask her to prove differently and then she goes quiet - never any response to these direct challenges.
Then three months or so later, up she pops again and re-states - with no shame- that BA is going to cut CC wages, leave you sitting at home etc etc.
The aim can only be to wear people down so that her "true version" is the last left standing, but that doesn't really stand true in the era of search engines which re-gurgitate everything with the search criteria.
Her other views have undoubtedly mellowed over the last eighteen months but she would still prefer BASSA to come out the undisputed winner.
Last edited by AlpineSkier; 4th Apr 2011 at 17:23.
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Negotiation
A bit of lateral thinking shows that BASSA are sticking to the vote of oh so long ago.
All they do is keep restating their position without giving anything away (sitting in a room listening to the other side and then restating positions is not negotiation in my book)
Anything the union members cabin crew have got as late has been freely(?) given by BA
All they do is keep restating their position without giving anything away (sitting in a room listening to the other side and then restating positions is not negotiation in my book)
Anything the union members cabin crew have got as late has been freely(?) given by BA
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Alpineskier,
I am not defending the views of Miss M, just defending her right to make them.
Can I also make it clear, that ALL cabin crew whether they be strikers or non-strikers, are fearful of our earnings going down in the future. It is not a fear that only people like Miss M hold.
I don't think BA will leave us at home with no work, but it is a common fear, however I do fear for the future because if our fleet does get smaller, there is a future chance that we would be forced onto Mixed Fleet, if some future fight for survival happened!
Now I believe BA when they say that Mixed Fleet will grow slowly, and only be 40% by 2020, but none of us has a crystal ball and we don't know what will happen to our terms and conditions, in the future, with different management.
So this dispute is not black and white at all, and it will have far reaching affects on all BA staff, because it sets a president for all departments to have new tiers of workers brought in on inferior contracts.
So I am against the strike, and I do believe that Bassa has been scare mongering, and you can't strike about something before it has happened, but that does not mean that I am happy with what has happened nor the agreements these new crew are being worked to.
Now, I don't believe that this strike has helped us, in fact, an integrated route, as in one of the offers, that Bassa discarded, would have produced a better result and that is why I was against a strike, and I feel serious negotiation would have been better. However, we are where we are, and if debating sensibly and courteously can help Miss M understand where some of us are comming from, I don't care how long it takes.
I am not defending the views of Miss M, just defending her right to make them.
Can I also make it clear, that ALL cabin crew whether they be strikers or non-strikers, are fearful of our earnings going down in the future. It is not a fear that only people like Miss M hold.
I don't think BA will leave us at home with no work, but it is a common fear, however I do fear for the future because if our fleet does get smaller, there is a future chance that we would be forced onto Mixed Fleet, if some future fight for survival happened!
Now I believe BA when they say that Mixed Fleet will grow slowly, and only be 40% by 2020, but none of us has a crystal ball and we don't know what will happen to our terms and conditions, in the future, with different management.
So this dispute is not black and white at all, and it will have far reaching affects on all BA staff, because it sets a president for all departments to have new tiers of workers brought in on inferior contracts.
So I am against the strike, and I do believe that Bassa has been scare mongering, and you can't strike about something before it has happened, but that does not mean that I am happy with what has happened nor the agreements these new crew are being worked to.
Now, I don't believe that this strike has helped us, in fact, an integrated route, as in one of the offers, that Bassa discarded, would have produced a better result and that is why I was against a strike, and I feel serious negotiation would have been better. However, we are where we are, and if debating sensibly and courteously can help Miss M understand where some of us are comming from, I don't care how long it takes.
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Some are being rather harsh on Miss M. Given that few SLF agree with the position of BASSA, it's not surprising that her viewpoint in support of them attracts derision from many quarters. Nevertheless that is her view, and one she's entitled to hold without attracting queries about who she might be and what her motivation is for stating them.
I frequently read puzzlement from many about what BASSA want out of this, and she repeatedly explains what her own feelings on it are. Of course most disagree, many can't understand how that view can be held. But even so, she does have the right to put that point across without aspersions being cast. That's simply not fair or reasonable.
I frequently read puzzlement from many about what BASSA want out of this, and she repeatedly explains what her own feelings on it are. Of course most disagree, many can't understand how that view can be held. But even so, she does have the right to put that point across without aspersions being cast. That's simply not fair or reasonable.
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I will put my hand up and admit I was 'puzzled' by MissM. There was just something [I know not what] that didn't seem quite right. I found the hyperbole, and the personal aspects, a little strange. If MissM finds that perception too hard to bear, so be it.
I reiterate my apology for any ad hominem in respect of MissM. Such is life on an open Internet Forum. I'm sure it's the same on the BASSA Forum when one expresses an opposing view. However, this is the SLF Forum.
I do not withdraw my complete disagreement with the action BASSA is taking, or trying to take, or contemplating taking ... because I believe the "cause" is both flawed and specious.
"Play on" ....
I reiterate my apology for any ad hominem in respect of MissM. Such is life on an open Internet Forum. I'm sure it's the same on the BASSA Forum when one expresses an opposing view. However, this is the SLF Forum.
I do not withdraw my complete disagreement with the action BASSA is taking, or trying to take, or contemplating taking ... because I believe the "cause" is both flawed and specious.
"Play on" ....
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Miss M
I will put my hand up and admit I was 'puzzled' by MissM. There was just something [I know not what] that didn't seem quite right. I found the hyperbole, and the personal aspects, a little strange. If MissM finds that perception too hard to bear, so be it.
I reiterate my apology for any ad hominem in respect of MissM. Such is life on an open Internet Forum. I'm sure it's the same on the BASSA Forum when one expresses an opposing view. However, this is the SLF Forum.
I do not withdraw my complete disagreement with the action BASSA is taking, or trying to take, or contemplating taking ... because I believe the "cause" is both flawed and specious.
"Play on" ....
I reiterate my apology for any ad hominem in respect of MissM. Such is life on an open Internet Forum. I'm sure it's the same on the BASSA Forum when one expresses an opposing view. However, this is the SLF Forum.
I do not withdraw my complete disagreement with the action BASSA is taking, or trying to take, or contemplating taking ... because I believe the "cause" is both flawed and specious.
"Play on" ....
My 'nagging doubt' was not about whether or not Miss M was a genuine poster - it never really occurred to me that he/she was not - it is simply that MPN11's description as "Lucid, literate and persistent" did not and does not square with his/her pattern of posting as per Alpine skier #341.
Roger.
Last edited by Landroger; 4th Apr 2011 at 18:39. Reason: Additional information
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Sorry, I'm getting a little tired with hearing about how cabin crew are fearful of seeing their income diminish in future years. In a previous job a proportion of my total salary was made up from overtime and call out payments. I was unhappy about having an income that depended on the vagaries of the business, so I sought employment elsewhere. I took a slight drop in salary in the first six months but at least I knew that it was all consolidated pay. I would have thought that if cabin crew were concerned about the variability of their pay, that they would have got their union to negotiate for a higher percentage to be consolidated. Doesn't seem to have been happening though.
On top of that is this notion of a job for life. Look around you. The catering staff found they were sold off to Gate Gourmet. The engineering staff in wheels and brakes got sold off along with other parts of the engineering division. A number of the head office functions have been outsourced to India. These areas didn't get the relative shelter of BA employing new staff on a lower starting salary. The jobs simply ceased to be done inhouse. It may sound awfully harsh, but cabin crew have been protected by weak management who were more into empathy and appeasement and a union that was able to run rings around them. It was bound to change at some point. Welcome to reality.
On top of that is this notion of a job for life. Look around you. The catering staff found they were sold off to Gate Gourmet. The engineering staff in wheels and brakes got sold off along with other parts of the engineering division. A number of the head office functions have been outsourced to India. These areas didn't get the relative shelter of BA employing new staff on a lower starting salary. The jobs simply ceased to be done inhouse. It may sound awfully harsh, but cabin crew have been protected by weak management who were more into empathy and appeasement and a union that was able to run rings around them. It was bound to change at some point. Welcome to reality.
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AlpineSkier
Revolutionist? I do not think aspiring to protect the package that you are currently on and maybe increase it with the cost of living over time, is going to bring down any Government.
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@ Fender Strat ... insecurity of employment!!
Indeed, try discussing that with a sergeant who is at the moment up to his neck in mud and sh1t in an Afghan ditch, in a firefight with Taliban, with a 10km hike to eventually disengage [unless he's a CASEVAC] ... and then to discover he's being made redundant as well.
From that perspective you can possibly understand why I have not too much sympathy for those BA CC who are whining about "imposition" and "management".
I know we all choose different career paths, with their own risks and pressures ... but honestly
Indeed, try discussing that with a sergeant who is at the moment up to his neck in mud and sh1t in an Afghan ditch, in a firefight with Taliban, with a 10km hike to eventually disengage [unless he's a CASEVAC] ... and then to discover he's being made redundant as well.
From that perspective you can possibly understand why I have not too much sympathy for those BA CC who are whining about "imposition" and "management".
I know we all choose different career paths, with their own risks and pressures ... but honestly
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Litebulbs
There is absolutely no connection at all between the sgt in 'Stan and BA CC.
They exist on completely different planets, both of which are somewhat unreal.
One puts his life on the line for his/her Country, and NATO, and the UN, as instructed ... or the Company, in this context.
The other puts his/her job on the line to defend archaic T&Cs that are actually being assured by the Company anyway. Wibble?
The sgt in the ditch doesn't give a solitary sh1t about your grievances.
Probably, although I wouldn't presume to speak for the majority of the UK population, most of us don't either
Sorry if that's a bit hard-ball, but I work for a Charity that looks after the aftermath of conflict, like the loss of several limbs, or PTSD, or widowhood. Somehow I find BA cabin crew grievances a bit petty. I guess that's why I come across as a grumpy old barsteward who really doesn't care about the CC's "grief and anguish".
On a personal level I do, however, care about being forked about when I try to fly BA in a Premium Cabin and can't even be assured that the flight's going to operate.
I'm also trying to be nice and polite, but it gets bludgy difficult some times.
They exist on completely different planets, both of which are somewhat unreal.
One puts his life on the line for his/her Country, and NATO, and the UN, as instructed ... or the Company, in this context.
The other puts his/her job on the line to defend archaic T&Cs that are actually being assured by the Company anyway. Wibble?
The sgt in the ditch doesn't give a solitary sh1t about your grievances.
Probably, although I wouldn't presume to speak for the majority of the UK population, most of us don't either
Sorry if that's a bit hard-ball, but I work for a Charity that looks after the aftermath of conflict, like the loss of several limbs, or PTSD, or widowhood. Somehow I find BA cabin crew grievances a bit petty. I guess that's why I come across as a grumpy old barsteward who really doesn't care about the CC's "grief and anguish".
On a personal level I do, however, care about being forked about when I try to fly BA in a Premium Cabin and can't even be assured that the flight's going to operate.
I'm also trying to be nice and polite, but it gets bludgy difficult some times.
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The other puts his/her job on the line to defend archaic T&Cs that are actually being assured by the Company anyway
Yes there are some who worry about that but there are more that are upstanding fine people who live for their job and constantly go out of their way to help us the customer.
As usual this has become all about LHR and the more militant crew.
Stop and think for a while before you let your fingers go wild on the keyboard issuing insults to others!
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Is anyone able to confirm that the proposed talks/negotiations between the disparate entities are actually happening? Further, in the event that they are did all parties viz. BA, Unite, BASSA & CC89 manage to summon the maturity to sit in the same room together?
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West Lakes, I am well aware that there is a substantial proportion of CC who are doing their job, professionally, on a daily basis.
If you step back from your keyboard a moment, and take a deep breath, you will realise that the adverse SLF comments are directed towards the BASSA militants [mainly based at LHR] who are the root of the problem.
If you care to search my posts, you will see that I have had nothing but praise for the LGW CC who have looked after me well over many years.
Some people are militant by contract, some are militant by choice.
If you step back from your keyboard a moment, and take a deep breath, you will realise that the adverse SLF comments are directed towards the BASSA militants [mainly based at LHR] who are the root of the problem.
If you care to search my posts, you will see that I have had nothing but praise for the LGW CC who have looked after me well over many years.
Some people are militant by contract, some are militant by choice.
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Look these insults are upsetting to everyone and many of you have not a clue what you are talking about.
All this rubbish about crew expecting a 'jobs for life'!
Who does not want to stay in a job they love and even if some of you have been forced to change your job, I very much doubt you enjoyed the experience.
I am going to stop reading this thread because there seems little point as this has just become a soap opera to some of you.
BG
All this rubbish about crew expecting a 'jobs for life'!
Who does not want to stay in a job they love and even if some of you have been forced to change your job, I very much doubt you enjoyed the experience.
I am going to stop reading this thread because there seems little point as this has just become a soap opera to some of you.
BG
@Betty Girl
All this rubbish about crew expecting a 'jobs for life'!
Who does not want to stay in a job they love and even if some of you have been forced to change your job, I very much doubt you enjoyed the experience.
Who does not want to stay in a job they love and even if some of you have been forced to change your job, I very much doubt you enjoyed the experience.
The sad fact is that BASSA demand open ended guarantees from BA that they are insulated from all circumstances and changes in the future as a pre-requisite to the dispute being settled.
That in my considered opinion, shows how ridiculous the demands are, and how the only way for the dispute to be settled, is for them to lose their jobs.
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Maybe folk are getting tetchy because there are no obvious signs of progress in this prolonged dispute which seems to be going nowhere.
It's probably a good time for us all to save our fingers from further keyboard agony until we see the next move from either side.
I'm off for an early night while I struggle through the latest Grisham epic, or otherwise!
It's probably a good time for us all to save our fingers from further keyboard agony until we see the next move from either side.
I'm off for an early night while I struggle through the latest Grisham epic, or otherwise!
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Betty, please stay as you are the link between ideas. Some would like the Master and Servants Act to be reintroduced, but you give an oposing opinion from within the cabin.
Some will be managers and some will be [trolls] like me
Some will be managers and some will be [trolls] like me
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I am well aware that there is a substantial proportion of CC who are doing their job, professionally, on a daily basis.
(I'm tetchy as I know where some CC are and why, it is nothing to do with BA but about their community)