Passengers charged £300 a seat to be evacuated out of Cairo
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I want my nanny state back
"Is this Govt so desperate to raise money that they will do anything to get it? I'm truly appalled by this."
I know, it is ridiculous isn't it - asking people to pay for things they use. And making people take responsibility for their own decisions such as to go on holiday.
I agree that this sort of thing never happened under the previous government
I know, it is ridiculous isn't it - asking people to pay for things they use. And making people take responsibility for their own decisions such as to go on holiday.
I agree that this sort of thing never happened under the previous government
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My company got most out with an Astraeus charter and the balance using two corporate jets. We gave away the spare seats. I suspect it cost a lot more than GBP 300 per person.....
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(lived there for seven years). I concede it's probably not for everyone though. 
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The World's 'favourite' airline?
What about when British Airways was flying into Tunisia when all the troubles started over there. The Foreign Office told people that it wasn't a great place at the moment but BA still continued operations as normal. Even check-in staff said everything was fine. I know some smartarse will probably say that we all need to watch the News but surely the airline must have some moral responsibilities or is it another case of money before safety??
Rico - as a transport provider, safety is important, but the obligations of the provider presumably stop at some stage. If a passenger wants to go somewhere, can an airline say "we know best and will not let you fly" ? Just because one section of the capital of a country is suddenly news-worthy, doesn't mean the rest of the country is as well !
If pre-booked passengers are in an area of the world which has seen recent dramatic events and want to get out, an airline presumably also has moral obligations to send the plane from their home base to get those customers to safety.
Yes - an airline has a moral obligation to ensure you're safe during passage. An airline may have a moral obligation to ask a passenger at check-in "are you sure you want to fly", but at some point the passenger has to take on some kind of responsibility for their own safety.
If pre-booked passengers are in an area of the world which has seen recent dramatic events and want to get out, an airline presumably also has moral obligations to send the plane from their home base to get those customers to safety.
Yes - an airline has a moral obligation to ensure you're safe during passage. An airline may have a moral obligation to ask a passenger at check-in "are you sure you want to fly", but at some point the passenger has to take on some kind of responsibility for their own safety.
What about when British Airways was flying into Tunisia when all the troubles started over there. The Foreign Office told people that it wasn't a great place at the moment but BA still continued operations as normal. Even check-in staff said everything was fine. I know some smartarse will probably say that we all need to watch the News but surely the airline must have some moral responsibilities or is it another case of money before safety??
I went to Romania just after the riots in the early 90's. I stayed at the Intercontinental in central Bucharest. There were bullet holes in the upper floor windows and just opposite was the smoking remains of a public building.
That's life I'm afraid.
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but surely the airline must have some moral responsibilities or is it another case of money before safety??
It is surely the responsibility of the customer to decide where and when they wish to travel - the airline has responsibility for safe carriage while in their care, but not a responsibility to determine where is safe and where is not, with the exception of the welfare of their staff and equipment. On that basis, there are theoretical arguments for not flying to Tehran, Beirut, Tel Aviv, Cali, Rio de Janeiro and that's just my list - other people will have other places that they would feel uncomfortable going to.
The "money before safety" quote is somewhat bizarre. All safety is a financial compromise, not just in aviation, but in almost all industries - so is life. We expect a higher standard of debate than this which is frankly, infantile mud-slinging.
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Tightslot
You might wish to read the link below, before making such a strong rebutal of the question.
BA must pay pounds 2.5m to Gulf hostages - News - The Independent
I do agree that there is also a strong degree of personal responsibility.
You might wish to read the link below, before making such a strong rebutal of the question.
BA must pay pounds 2.5m to Gulf hostages - News - The Independent
I do agree that there is also a strong degree of personal responsibility.
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Thanks - interesting link and a fair point - I'm not convinced that is quite the same issue, in that we are discussing the intention to travel to a known trouble spot (known to the passengers and airline that is 
) whereas with BA149, the passengers were unaware, which is rather the point of the court action I would suggest.
) whereas with BA149, the passengers were unaware, which is rather the point of the court action I would suggest.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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You might wish to read the link below
Taking the Tunis flight, the aircraft was going there as advertised so it would have obviously be going to a sensitive location!
In the case detailed in the link the aircraft was supposed to be going to Kuala Lumpur and made an unplanned landing in Kuwait.
In the first case a passenger has a choice go or not to the advertised destination, in the second case they had no choice
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Infantile mud-slinging??
Some taxi drivers I found whilst travelling in other countries have actually been helpful-a couple of times advice was given to me that a couple of places I suggested would not have been safe to walk around during daylight hours-needless to say I took their advice!
TightSlot-I know that there are plenty of dodgy places out there all over the world but Tunisia and Cairo have suddenly had massive political instability in a short space of time. Clearly nobody is rushing out for cheap flights to Iraq or Afghanistan but my point was that Tunisia and Egypt were considered reasonably safe and suddenly erupted but now some airlines carry on as if everthing is normal. As pilots and/or operators we need to protect some of these people from their own stupidity-after all how many times have you seen passengers forget their passport or they can't work out how to put their seatbelt on!
Joao da Silva-thanks for the article (not the first time for BA then!).
Some taxi drivers I found whilst travelling in other countries have actually been helpful-a couple of times advice was given to me that a couple of places I suggested would not have been safe to walk around during daylight hours-needless to say I took their advice!
TightSlot-I know that there are plenty of dodgy places out there all over the world but Tunisia and Cairo have suddenly had massive political instability in a short space of time. Clearly nobody is rushing out for cheap flights to Iraq or Afghanistan but my point was that Tunisia and Egypt were considered reasonably safe and suddenly erupted but now some airlines carry on as if everthing is normal. As pilots and/or operators we need to protect some of these people from their own stupidity-after all how many times have you seen passengers forget their passport or they can't work out how to put their seatbelt on!
Joao da Silva-thanks for the article (not the first time for BA then!).
Avoid imitations
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but at some point the passenger has to take on some kind of responsibility for their own safety.
I think all that most pax need is correct and timely information. Let them make up their own minds about what they do. Was anyone forced onto the aircraft? I presume they were given an option to remain and return on their normal flights.
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If most of these airlines thought it was OK to go, initially, then why did so many of them send a load of 'rescue flights' out to pick up most of their passengers recently ie.TUI and others?
I take your comments about passengers being given information and making a responsible choice for themselves but I'm beginning to wonder if a few of these people were given the full facts at the airport or was it case of 'everything's fine' if someone were to ask any of the check-in staff. Also does any advice by the Foreign Office get taken seriously by most operators or do some airlines choose to ignore it?
I take your comments about passengers being given information and making a responsible choice for themselves but I'm beginning to wonder if a few of these people were given the full facts at the airport or was it case of 'everything's fine' if someone were to ask any of the check-in staff. Also does any advice by the Foreign Office get taken seriously by most operators or do some airlines choose to ignore it?
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TUI and others were "rescuing" customers on their own branded Package Holidays - In other words, the passengers had bought both flights and hotac from the Tour Operator, thereby rendering the Tour operator liable for their welfare overseas and repatriation by flight. Scheduled airlines are only contracted to carry people from A to B - their legal (and I would suggest, moral) responsibility ends there.
The Foreign Office advice is precisely that - advice: It doesn't override free will, and doesn't affect non-UK passport holders, or those UK nationals who choose to ignore it. Airlines and Tour Operators pay careful attention to FO advice, because ignoring it can sometimes affect insurance liability, both for customer and airline company.
The Foreign Office advice is precisely that - advice: It doesn't override free will, and doesn't affect non-UK passport holders, or those UK nationals who choose to ignore it. Airlines and Tour Operators pay careful attention to FO advice, because ignoring it can sometimes affect insurance liability, both for customer and airline company.
I understand that the Foreign Office has ALWAYS charged the "equivalent commercial fare" for any evacuation they arrange from troublespots, so no difference to previous procedures over the years. If you haven't got the cash, as so often in such circumstances, they will still carry you, but take your passport (which is their's, not yours) when you get back, until you pay up. I presume all these rules etc have long been in place.
As it is traditionally the Standard airline fare which is charged (because this concept comes from long before the days of Yield Management), and having a look at BA's standard fares over the next week or so to a comparable destination, Tel Aviv (Cairo not providing appropriate fares at the moment, for obvious reasons), the one-way fare is £659. So charging £300 seems something of a bargain. I presume £300 x 100 pax (because they are apparently nothing like full) = £30,000 comes nowhere near the 757 round trip charter costs.
As it is traditionally the Standard airline fare which is charged (because this concept comes from long before the days of Yield Management), and having a look at BA's standard fares over the next week or so to a comparable destination, Tel Aviv (Cairo not providing appropriate fares at the moment, for obvious reasons), the one-way fare is £659. So charging £300 seems something of a bargain. I presume £300 x 100 pax (because they are apparently nothing like full) = £30,000 comes nowhere near the 757 round trip charter costs.
In 1979 I don't believe the FO were issuing warnings. I was in Peru and travelled to Lake Titicaca by train where I took the overnight steamer (built in Hull in 1928!) across the Lake. When we arrived in Bolivia we were told the trains were on strike and to take the bus to La Paz.
Half way to La Paz someone on the bus had a radio and said "I think there's been a revolution". El Alto (the town above La Paz) was heaving but as we descended into La Paz there were no people around. The bus dumped us by the station and left. At 16000 ft with a back pack walking isn't easy but we found our way around the road blocks through back streets to our hotel.
The next few days were boring while the two sides argued and one night took pot shots at one another outside the hotel (we spent the night in the bath room - at least one more layer of breeze block to protect us). Eventually a Peruvian bus company decided to take their bus out and sold us tickets. At the 2nd try (the road was blocked the first day) we got back to Peru. I believe that the following day all the foreigners were taken to the airport and shipped out by the military.
Even today I'm not sure I would have even seen the FO warning if it had been present - who foretold Tunisia or Egypt? Did I try and get the bus fare back from the FO? No. I simply took the view I had got into this; I needed to get myself out.
That experience taught me a few things but it doesn't stop me travelling and, even now, I rarely look at the FO site except for amusement. I'm the only person who can keep me safe; I have to take responsibility.
Oh by the by that Peru/Bolivia trip was our honeymoon and she hasn't divorced me yet!
Half way to La Paz someone on the bus had a radio and said "I think there's been a revolution". El Alto (the town above La Paz) was heaving but as we descended into La Paz there were no people around. The bus dumped us by the station and left. At 16000 ft with a back pack walking isn't easy but we found our way around the road blocks through back streets to our hotel.
The next few days were boring while the two sides argued and one night took pot shots at one another outside the hotel (we spent the night in the bath room - at least one more layer of breeze block to protect us). Eventually a Peruvian bus company decided to take their bus out and sold us tickets. At the 2nd try (the road was blocked the first day) we got back to Peru. I believe that the following day all the foreigners were taken to the airport and shipped out by the military.
Even today I'm not sure I would have even seen the FO warning if it had been present - who foretold Tunisia or Egypt? Did I try and get the bus fare back from the FO? No. I simply took the view I had got into this; I needed to get myself out.
That experience taught me a few things but it doesn't stop me travelling and, even now, I rarely look at the FO site except for amusement. I'm the only person who can keep me safe; I have to take responsibility.
Oh by the by that Peru/Bolivia trip was our honeymoon and she hasn't divorced me yet!
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Am I the only one who thinks that it is wrong for airlines to operates into politically unstable hotspots or am I going to be beaten down by self-righteous tossers who tell me that everything is alright?
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Am I the only one who thinks that it is wrong for airlines to operates into politically unstable hotspots or am I going to be beaten down by self-righteous tossers who tell me that everything is alright?
if the demand is there....they will go.....its a business.
if the demand stops....they will stop.
Where would an airline go if it couldnt go to a politically unstable hot spot?
did flying stop in and out of the UK because of a hung parliament? it was after all..."politically unstable"....
did we stop flying to belfast because of the IRA...
get in the real world
Rico - it all depends on how much of a duty of care an airline or tour operator has with regards to the passengers. If it's a tour operator which in February is still selling packages to Luxor, while glossing over FCO advice, then this is irresponsible to say the least.
However, even when a country is undergoing revolution or at war, life still has to go on. Businesses still need to trade, families need to have the capacity to reunite, and some people want to be able to get out to safety.
It's all about different people needing varying levels of care. The young family who want to take their small children somewhere safe for a week's annual holiday need more attention. The person who lives in the unstable country and is returning home after a business trip can look after him/herself
In January 2010, I voluntarily chose to go as a tourist to a *very* unstable part of East Africa. I knew full well of the risks and spent many hours Googling it, but there was something I really wanted to see. Had there not been scheduled flights, I would not have gone. I was happy to take the risk, the airline was happy to take my money, and the airline crew were happy to get their wages. The hotel, restaurant, driver, tour guide and others were happy to have my money as well.
A ready flow of foreigners to a country tends to bring perspective, new ideas and prosperity and pacify a population. Remove scheduled transport to politically unstable countries, and it becomes much easier for a North Korean style despot to hold power.
However, even when a country is undergoing revolution or at war, life still has to go on. Businesses still need to trade, families need to have the capacity to reunite, and some people want to be able to get out to safety.
It's all about different people needing varying levels of care. The young family who want to take their small children somewhere safe for a week's annual holiday need more attention. The person who lives in the unstable country and is returning home after a business trip can look after him/herself
In January 2010, I voluntarily chose to go as a tourist to a *very* unstable part of East Africa. I knew full well of the risks and spent many hours Googling it, but there was something I really wanted to see. Had there not been scheduled flights, I would not have gone. I was happy to take the risk, the airline was happy to take my money, and the airline crew were happy to get their wages. The hotel, restaurant, driver, tour guide and others were happy to have my money as well.
A ready flow of foreigners to a country tends to bring perspective, new ideas and prosperity and pacify a population. Remove scheduled transport to politically unstable countries, and it becomes much easier for a North Korean style despot to hold power.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 7th Feb 2011 at 19:45.