Pilot experience/passenger choice
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Another question for you Jabiman...
Would you prefer a pilot with (say) 1,000 hours, or a pilot with the same hour 1,000 times
On a more serious note, I read something quite interesting in a gliding magazine about experience, age, and crashing... as far as I remember the problem went along the lines of the more experienced the pilot was, the less likely they were to crash, however, with that experience comes age. Older pilots began to crash more, despite (or even because of) their experience because when things began to go wrong, they drew on this experience (consciously or unconsciously) to get them out of a problem they'd encountered before, rather than what was happening at that time...
And regardless of experince, it's all about currency - why else do accident reports mention both the aircraft commander's total time, and time in the last 90 days?
Would you prefer a pilot with (say) 1,000 hours, or a pilot with the same hour 1,000 times
On a more serious note, I read something quite interesting in a gliding magazine about experience, age, and crashing... as far as I remember the problem went along the lines of the more experienced the pilot was, the less likely they were to crash, however, with that experience comes age. Older pilots began to crash more, despite (or even because of) their experience because when things began to go wrong, they drew on this experience (consciously or unconsciously) to get them out of a problem they'd encountered before, rather than what was happening at that time...
And regardless of experince, it's all about currency - why else do accident reports mention both the aircraft commander's total time, and time in the last 90 days?
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The thing is, it is not true to say that experienced pilots have less chance of an accident than less experienced pilots. The world's worst air disaster had a Chief of Flight Training sitting in the left hand seat. The most recent A330 crash had a Captain on board who had 11,000 hours, including 1700 on type, and the FOs on that flight had 9,000 hours between them.
On the other hand, my mate, who had only around 1500 hours at the time, and very few on airliners, had an engine failure which was handled very well. He subsequently had another (different aeroplane!) and that was also handled very well.
I know very good low hours pilots and very bad "experienced" pilots.
Different people bring different things to a flight, and hours on jets is not the only denomination to look at. Someone who has had a wide variety of experience and can think outside the box whilst utilising the rest of the crew to the best of everyone's ability is likely to be the safest pilot.
How you think as a passenger that you would be able to determine that, god only knows!!!
I think a far more important issue, that is currently being buried by the airlines, is the issue of fatigue and training. There are certain airlines that I will not fly with, because I know just what kind of rosters those guys are flying, and fatigue is a far more dangerous issue.
On the other hand, my mate, who had only around 1500 hours at the time, and very few on airliners, had an engine failure which was handled very well. He subsequently had another (different aeroplane!) and that was also handled very well.
I know very good low hours pilots and very bad "experienced" pilots.
Different people bring different things to a flight, and hours on jets is not the only denomination to look at. Someone who has had a wide variety of experience and can think outside the box whilst utilising the rest of the crew to the best of everyone's ability is likely to be the safest pilot.
How you think as a passenger that you would be able to determine that, god only knows!!!
I think a far more important issue, that is currently being buried by the airlines, is the issue of fatigue and training. There are certain airlines that I will not fly with, because I know just what kind of rosters those guys are flying, and fatigue is a far more dangerous issue.
I would humbly say that the best indicator of the quality of the pilot is the name on the side of the metal. BA, Virgin, Qantas, Lufthansa etc. etc.
Top end training and on going checks mean you can be assured of the best.
That is not to say that things cant go wrong whoever is at the controls but the top end airlines make the margin for error very small.
Don't forget There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots....sorry I'll get my coat
Top end training and on going checks mean you can be assured of the best.
That is not to say that things cant go wrong whoever is at the controls but the top end airlines make the margin for error very small.
Don't forget There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots....sorry I'll get my coat
Paxing All Over The World
I saw the OP just minutes after it was posted and decided to sit back and enjoy the ride. OK, assuming that the OP is not Trolling ...
Most folks want to reduce risk in their lives - like the Americans want to use robots and drones to fight their wars and not have so many troops on the front line. It won't work but they are finding that our the hard way. So I think I understand what you are about but the best option is to choose very carefully your AIRLINE and the COUNTRY in which it is based and, possibly, who does their maintenance.
If I make a mistake in my job, whilst no one dies, it is certain that the people who witness the mistake will remember it for ever. I know, because I have made mistakes.
I have been doing my particular job for 19.5 years. I have also trained more than 100 people to do this highly specialised job, which involves some very delicate situations in human lives. I have spoken at international conferences and been interviewed live on Newsnight etc. On paper, I'm one of the most experienced people in the UK at what I do and, Yes, many people ask for me by name. People alter their arrangements to fit in with my availability. This is not bragging but fact.
BUT BUT BUT
I tell people, "Just because I'm experienced, doesn't mean I'm any good." I have to be good each and every time and, sometimes, I go home knowing that I have not done my best. But, to use the popular phrase, 'we all walked away from it'.
I have seen newer people than me doing brilliantly as much as I've seen old timers simply cranking the handle and turning out dross. This applies to every aspect of human activity.
Most folks want to reduce risk in their lives - like the Americans want to use robots and drones to fight their wars and not have so many troops on the front line. It won't work but they are finding that our the hard way. So I think I understand what you are about but the best option is to choose very carefully your AIRLINE and the COUNTRY in which it is based and, possibly, who does their maintenance.
If I make a mistake in my job, whilst no one dies, it is certain that the people who witness the mistake will remember it for ever. I know, because I have made mistakes.
I have been doing my particular job for 19.5 years. I have also trained more than 100 people to do this highly specialised job, which involves some very delicate situations in human lives. I have spoken at international conferences and been interviewed live on Newsnight etc. On paper, I'm one of the most experienced people in the UK at what I do and, Yes, many people ask for me by name. People alter their arrangements to fit in with my availability. This is not bragging but fact.
BUT BUT BUT
I tell people, "Just because I'm experienced, doesn't mean I'm any good." I have to be good each and every time and, sometimes, I go home knowing that I have not done my best. But, to use the popular phrase, 'we all walked away from it'.
I have seen newer people than me doing brilliantly as much as I've seen old timers simply cranking the handle and turning out dross. This applies to every aspect of human activity.
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Good heavens Jabiman !!!!
I just noticed your situ is "terra firma"....you've gotta be having a laugh !!!
I truly believe that most forums have a resident troll...& with your last response,i just marked your card...!
I really dont want to respond any further on this thread,as i believe you just wanna stir the proverbial poopoo !!
Im sure there are other forums that would relish your hightly intelligent input,but im afraid i am under the impresssion that this site is a professional pilots forum,& it is rather insulting for you to be posting such drivel.
Im done !!!..Ttfn !!!
I just noticed your situ is "terra firma"....you've gotta be having a laugh !!!
I truly believe that most forums have a resident troll...& with your last response,i just marked your card...!
I really dont want to respond any further on this thread,as i believe you just wanna stir the proverbial poopoo !!
Im sure there are other forums that would relish your hightly intelligent input,but im afraid i am under the impresssion that this site is a professional pilots forum,& it is rather insulting for you to be posting such drivel.
Im done !!!..Ttfn !!!
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Jabiman
I've passed your question directly to Willie Walsh, the boss of BA. He has promised me he will give it his undivided attention & he will contact you directly to ascertain when you next intend to fly & on which route.
He will then offer you a selection of senior captains. Would you also like a choice of first officers & whether or not the CSD is a member of Bassa?
He will also ask his senior chef to contact you to decide on your preferred menu. He will also ensure that there is a brain surgeon on board in case you wish to change your mind.
He will then offer you a selection of senior captains. Would you also like a choice of first officers & whether or not the CSD is a member of Bassa?
He will also ask his senior chef to contact you to decide on your preferred menu. He will also ensure that there is a brain surgeon on board in case you wish to change your mind.
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Going on the same lines can I also choose the cabin crew, perhaps a little parade before boarding along the lines of miss world would do nicely.
No thought not.
No thought not.
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I have heard the word troll bandied about a few times now and by definition it is so vague anyone who asks a question can be labelled that at whim (a bit like being called un-American – can be used to mean whatever the accuser wants it to mean).
I started this thread as a serious suggestion which was inspired by a senate inquiry into pilot standards in Australia: Pilot standards dive in low-cost era and a pilot being sacked for voicing his concerns publicly: Jetstar sacked pilot Joe Eakins pulls out of Senate safety inquiry
My intention was never to criticise pilots but to highlight what the industry was doing to pilot standards and a possible way that the consumer could help to reverse this trend.
As things stand, we have no idea as to the quality or experience of pilot that any airlines are using and in fact some airlines are employing First Officers who are actually paying the airline to do their Line Training! So if my plane is being crewed by what is little more than a passenger then I think that I have the right to know and the right to choose by paying a little more and having an experienced crew. Again, no criticism of pilots but only of what the industry has become.
So far, of the serious responses to this suggestion we have had the following noteworthy replies:
Fair enough, but we should have an indication if one of the two man flight crew is a trainee.
Another good point, definitely the latter is preferable but I am not asking for information overload, just an indicator of experience.
Agreed, and you can bet that the airlines that have unreasonable rosters will also have scant regard for the pilots experience as long as they satisfy the regulatory minimum.
This is certainly a good way to fly but it is not always possible especially on minor routes or if they are fully booked already or if we are indeed trying to save some money.
Also, with the run of bad luck that Qantas has had recently, is it related to their off shoring of maintenance? We will never know and don’t want to know but if they start to try to make money by lowering pilot standards then I DO want to know and if my suggestion is implemented it will become visible.
This is true to a certain extent, maybe we should also include access to the pilots ages. Just kidding, not sure how this could be solved short of reintroducing mandatory retirement ages though I will add that there are a lot of unemployed experienced pilots because their jobs are being taken by pay to fly cadets and this is the trend that I want to reverse by making the airline crewing practises more transparent.
You must be Steven Slater.
I started this thread as a serious suggestion which was inspired by a senate inquiry into pilot standards in Australia: Pilot standards dive in low-cost era and a pilot being sacked for voicing his concerns publicly: Jetstar sacked pilot Joe Eakins pulls out of Senate safety inquiry
My intention was never to criticise pilots but to highlight what the industry was doing to pilot standards and a possible way that the consumer could help to reverse this trend.
As things stand, we have no idea as to the quality or experience of pilot that any airlines are using and in fact some airlines are employing First Officers who are actually paying the airline to do their Line Training! So if my plane is being crewed by what is little more than a passenger then I think that I have the right to know and the right to choose by paying a little more and having an experienced crew. Again, no criticism of pilots but only of what the industry has become.
So far, of the serious responses to this suggestion we have had the following noteworthy replies:
Its hard to comprehend the sheer vanity of anyone who believes he has the knowledge to judge the skill level of a pilot by how many hours he has. Even the most experienced examiner can't begin to do that!
Fair enough, but we should have an indication if one of the two man flight crew is a trainee.
Would you prefer a pilot with (say) 1,000 hours, or a pilot with the same hour 1,000 times
Another good point, definitely the latter is preferable but I am not asking for information overload, just an indicator of experience.
fatigue is a far more dangerous issue.
Agreed, and you can bet that the airlines that have unreasonable rosters will also have scant regard for the pilots experience as long as they satisfy the regulatory minimum.
I would humbly say that the best indicator of the quality of the pilot is the name on the side of the metal. BA, Virgin, Qantas, Lufthansa etc. etc.
This is certainly a good way to fly but it is not always possible especially on minor routes or if they are fully booked already or if we are indeed trying to save some money.
Also, with the run of bad luck that Qantas has had recently, is it related to their off shoring of maintenance? We will never know and don’t want to know but if they start to try to make money by lowering pilot standards then I DO want to know and if my suggestion is implemented it will become visible.
I have seen newer people than me doing brilliantly as much as I've seen old timers simply cranking the handle and turning out dross. This applies to every aspect of human activity.
This is true to a certain extent, maybe we should also include access to the pilots ages. Just kidding, not sure how this could be solved short of reintroducing mandatory retirement ages though I will add that there are a lot of unemployed experienced pilots because their jobs are being taken by pay to fly cadets and this is the trend that I want to reverse by making the airline crewing practises more transparent.
Can i just say, although i really, REALLY enjoyed being a CC, it's because of people like you and Jib Wotsit i decided to quit flying and pursue another career. What a shame, i was a very good cabin crew too!
You must be Steven Slater.
Last edited by Jabiman; 2nd Dec 2010 at 03:03. Reason: fixed broken link
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Training is a necessary requirement, where else should they be trained?
Bearing in mind that the experienced pilots all had zero hours before they started.
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Well...
ATS - couldn't agree more. I fly for a company that doesn't have such a prestigious name on the side, yet I couldn't fault our training or safety departments. Such airlines as are being lauded by vctenderness could possibly survive a hull loss - i doubt we could.
As to Jabiman, how dare you question abilities and experiences, and think that you are in a position to judge? I see in your last post you attempt to qualify it, but you really don't have a clue.
2 questions:
1) What do you do for a living Jabiman?
2) When you are ill and go to the doctors, do you request any kind of document showing your docs experience / skills / hours on "type"?
Best regards,
an FO. (low to medium hours, with a few "interesting" experiences that hopefully are starting to give me some real experience - perhaps you can judge as to how well I am doing?)
As to Jabiman, how dare you question abilities and experiences, and think that you are in a position to judge? I see in your last post you attempt to qualify it, but you really don't have a clue.
2 questions:
1) What do you do for a living Jabiman?
2) When you are ill and go to the doctors, do you request any kind of document showing your docs experience / skills / hours on "type"?
Best regards,
an FO. (low to medium hours, with a few "interesting" experiences that hopefully are starting to give me some real experience - perhaps you can judge as to how well I am doing?)
Paxing All Over The World
Jabiman
That is incorrect and it is very easy to find the definition:
Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
So, if you are not a Troll you have a thick skin!
I have heard the word troll bandied about a few times now and by definition it is so vague anyone who asks a question can be labelled that at whim
Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
So, if you are not a Troll you have a thick skin!
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how dare you question abilities and experiences, and think that you are in a position to judge? What do you do for a living Jabiman?
Not sure how this is relevant as this part of the forum is for SLF. But for the record I am not a professional pilot though I am currently learning to fly.
2) When you are ill and go to the doctors, do you request any kind of document showing your docs experience / skills / hours on "type"?
Before going to a doctor I will find out how long he has been practicing and what degrees he or she has AND how much I will be charged. This is a basic consumer right.
Please, pretty please, go and have your head examined. For the love of God, please!
If I do, then I will first be sure to examine the credentials of the said psychiatrist….in fact, don’t these medical practitioners have their certificates framed on the wall behind their desk?
So where would you suggest inexperienced pilots get their experience from?
Training is a necessary requirement, where else should they be trained?
Bearing in mind that the experienced pilots all had zero hours before they started.
Bearing in mind that the experienced pilots all had zero hours before they started.
But this is a problem which is inherent in almost every profession, the old I need experience to be employed but no one will employ me because I have no experience conundrum.
If a newly graduated brain surgeon is looking for work, then he wont be going into private practice so what to do? Apply in the public system where he can perfect his art or alternatively, go overseas and work for free in some third world country to gain the requisite skill to come back home and earn the mega bucks.
So why should the piloting profession be any different?
The traditional path in the USA, Canada and Australia was for the neophyte aviator to get a job in (GA) General Aviation or overseas where wages were low but it was a sort of apprenticeship. Upon attainment of experience they would hope to be hired by an airline which would come with a suitable increase in remuneration.
This learning experience may explain the higher accident rate in GA in this summary which is based on USA statistics which I posted earlier:
- driving: 1.32 fatal accidents and 1.47 fatalities per 100 million miles
- airlines: .05 fatal accidents and 1.57 fatalities per 100 million miles
- GA: 7.46 fatal accidents and 13.1 fatalities per 100 million miles
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Like PAXboy, I viewed the arrival of this thread with a certain jaded resignation - It was only ever going in one direction. The period of its' existence has almost exactly coincided with a round trip to LAX and back which lends a somewhat surreal edge to the thing.
Jabiman - the problem is that your criterion for assessing the likelihood of an accident is flawed: Whilst some accidents have a lack of experience as a possible contributory factor, many do not. It is the attempt to isolate the root cause of possible accidents that is faulty: They are complicated incidents, virtually always resulting from a combination of circumstances that cannot be reverse-engineered on a theoretical basis, in advance of the incident. That is the point - if they could be, the accident would probably never occur. In making your decision as to whether to fly with a particular carrier on a specific flight, you would also require access to maintenance records, employment history, NOTAM's, MET forecasts and airline SOP's each time, in order to make anything approaching an informed assessment.
I was tempted to move or close this thread, but it has been generating some traffic, so I'll leave it for a while. It may, or may not, be troll droppings - I guess we'll see as time passes. Now - it's time for a double espresso in an attempt to blast my way back into UK time!
Jabiman - the problem is that your criterion for assessing the likelihood of an accident is flawed: Whilst some accidents have a lack of experience as a possible contributory factor, many do not. It is the attempt to isolate the root cause of possible accidents that is faulty: They are complicated incidents, virtually always resulting from a combination of circumstances that cannot be reverse-engineered on a theoretical basis, in advance of the incident. That is the point - if they could be, the accident would probably never occur. In making your decision as to whether to fly with a particular carrier on a specific flight, you would also require access to maintenance records, employment history, NOTAM's, MET forecasts and airline SOP's each time, in order to make anything approaching an informed assessment.
I was tempted to move or close this thread, but it has been generating some traffic, so I'll leave it for a while. It may, or may not, be troll droppings - I guess we'll see as time passes. Now - it's time for a double espresso in an attempt to blast my way back into UK time!
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Perhaps the interesting aspect is that this is happening already.
The de-regulation of air travel in the US destabilized the old order and it spread across to Europe in the form of 'locos.'
Whilst it may not be an overt choice (like how many hold bags, priority boarding etc), intuitively I think most air travellers understand that choosing a loco means more likelyhood of encountering an inexperienced pilot (although it is not exclusive to locos and pilots build experience under strict supervision on many airlines) and people seem to vote with their cash.
In conclusion, so long as the system is safe (and people have crude ways of judging that, which industry members may not rate too highly), then it appears that people will choose to have a less experienced crew, for a lower ticket cost.
Whether this reflects reality is a nother matter.
The de-regulation of air travel in the US destabilized the old order and it spread across to Europe in the form of 'locos.'
Whilst it may not be an overt choice (like how many hold bags, priority boarding etc), intuitively I think most air travellers understand that choosing a loco means more likelyhood of encountering an inexperienced pilot (although it is not exclusive to locos and pilots build experience under strict supervision on many airlines) and people seem to vote with their cash.
In conclusion, so long as the system is safe (and people have crude ways of judging that, which industry members may not rate too highly), then it appears that people will choose to have a less experienced crew, for a lower ticket cost.
Whether this reflects reality is a nother matter.
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Unfortunately GA experience is utterly irrelevant when you're sitting in an airliner, it's a completely different type of operation.
Would you rather have a GA pilot with ten thousand of hours of irrelevant experience (but using your criteria 'experienced') and two hundred hours of relevant experience flying you around or a thousand hour airline pilot who has received quality training, has been subject to several simulator checks, ongoing assesments and gaining relevant experience for the job at hand?
Perfecting the art of wanging a puddle jumper around VFR is NOT relevant to operating an airliner in controlled airspace in one of the most highly regulated industries in the world.
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I wonder why you picked Ethiopian Airlines? Because it sounds "backward" perhaps? Ethiopia being well known as a backward country, after all...
and posessing probably the next best airline in Africa after SAA. They're trained to Lufthansa standards I believe, and are pretty damn good by anyone's reckoning. I'd not think twice about flying Ethiopian, and there's only one other African carriers I'd say that about.
Personally I'd choose BA over Lufty too, but thats just a cultural thing.
and posessing probably the next best airline in Africa after SAA. They're trained to Lufthansa standards I believe, and are pretty damn good by anyone's reckoning. I'd not think twice about flying Ethiopian, and there's only one other African carriers I'd say that about.
Personally I'd choose BA over Lufty too, but thats just a cultural thing.
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What do you do?
Not sure how this is relevant as this part of the forum is for SLF. But for the record I am not a professional pilot though I am currently learning t
Paxing All Over The World
I'm glad TS that your work kept you away from us, because this thread is such good fun. It's been a long time since we've had a chance to tear a subject to shreds and a bit of blood letting is no bad thing.
Now, if you'd just like to go back to the crew resting quarters and ignore the call bells from the cabin for just a bit longer ...
Now, if you'd just like to go back to the crew resting quarters and ignore the call bells from the cabin for just a bit longer ...
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dwshimoda
I'm a marketing director and I commission regular market surveys that convince me that most of our customers make uninformed decisions, based on lack of understanding.
Why should your industry be any different?
I have long since stopped worrying about it, as it is exactly the same situation for our competitors.
I'm a marketing director and I commission regular market surveys that convince me that most of our customers make uninformed decisions, based on lack of understanding.
Why should your industry be any different?
I have long since stopped worrying about it, as it is exactly the same situation for our competitors.
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This thread falls so firmly in the 'dumbass sh1t' category that I'm really not sure that writing a sensible reply is a worthwhile use of my time.
So Jabiman, as this is all you're getting from me for now, could you please explain to me where future experienced airline pilots will come from if you do not also currently have less experienced airline pilots? How many flying hours were you born with?
Given that both the new airline pilot and the new brain surgeon have reached the requirements set by their regulatory bodies, what do you know that they don't?
Are the hours that I have logged hand-flying battlefield helicopters around Iraq, at low level, at night, on goggles, getting shot at, equally valuable to the hours that I now log at FL350, with the autopilot engaged, reading a newspaper and drinking a coffee? How do you propose to factor this in? Will the pilots' logbooks be downloadable from the airline booking pages?
If you are a regular air traveller you WILL have flown on flights where training is taking place, whether that be a flag-carrier or a loco, and you will have been none the wiser.
So Jabiman, as this is all you're getting from me for now, could you please explain to me where future experienced airline pilots will come from if you do not also currently have less experienced airline pilots? How many flying hours were you born with?
Given that both the new airline pilot and the new brain surgeon have reached the requirements set by their regulatory bodies, what do you know that they don't?
Are the hours that I have logged hand-flying battlefield helicopters around Iraq, at low level, at night, on goggles, getting shot at, equally valuable to the hours that I now log at FL350, with the autopilot engaged, reading a newspaper and drinking a coffee? How do you propose to factor this in? Will the pilots' logbooks be downloadable from the airline booking pages?
If you are a regular air traveller you WILL have flown on flights where training is taking place, whether that be a flag-carrier or a loco, and you will have been none the wiser.