Passengers in the Cockpit/Doors locked.
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Passengers in the Cockpit/Doors locked.
Quick question. What are the current EU regulations on passengers in the cockpit with regard to charter flights? Also related, I thought that pilots were not allowed to leave the door open/unlocked during flight?
Paxing All Over The World
Any commercial flight in European airspace = no visitors on the flight deck until after a/c stopped on arrival, doors open and systems shut down. No exceptions.
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if you need the loo then you have to open the door. If you want food or drink then again open the door. Sometimes gets left open for a minute or two but with someone standing nearby. Have cameras to watch galley area behind door and a light to see if toilet is occupied and not meant to open it if someone is in the loo or galley other than crew. Unlike airport security most of us have brains and if an 80 year old woman has just gone into the loo we would still open the door to leave if we wanted to or open it to get drinks/food.
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Any commercial flight in European airspace = no visitors on the flight deck until after a/c stopped on arrival, doors open and systems shut down. No exceptions.
Paxing All Over The World
Ah, OK, it was late at night and by 'visitor' I was referring to us, the great unwashed freight. Not all those gorgeous and clean people that provide airline services. 
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Wrong again I'm afraid PAXboy. On some airlines even the great unwashed get to visit up front (unless they pong of course). Do not base your comments purely on US and UK practices. A great deal of the rest of the world think differently and still allow Captains discretion re FD visits in flight.
Paxing All Over The World
Well there you go. I suppose that one can class this as:
- Some European countries ignore the massive threat of attacks on FD staff
- Some European countries take a realistic view of the the threat to ...
- Some European countries ignore the rules/reccomendations blah blah!
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As a general rule, access is not permitted at all, except by operating crew. Access for ATCO's and some others (CAA inspectors etc.) is permitted by prior formal arrangement only, not on an ad-hoc basis.
There is no doubt that some countries and their airlines outside the EU and USA (we won't name them here) may operate different procedures that are less stringent, involving 'Captains' discretion'. Your desire to visit the Flight Deck is understandable, but to present such a policy as being some kind of return to common-sense is absurd.
There is no doubt that some countries and their airlines outside the EU and USA (we won't name them here) may operate different procedures that are less stringent, involving 'Captains' discretion'. Your desire to visit the Flight Deck is understandable, but to present such a policy as being some kind of return to common-sense is absurd.
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Not sure about the universal implementation of EU rules, Tightslot.
Some EU carriers do allow a 'Captain's Discretion". My son is an FO on such a Euro Carrier and often flies with passengers in the cockpit - Captain's girlfriends, girls the Captain wished were his girlfriend, winner of the "Guess the weight of the Aircraft" competition and, most importantly, the FO's parents!
OD
Some EU carriers do allow a 'Captain's Discretion". My son is an FO on such a Euro Carrier and often flies with passengers in the cockpit - Captain's girlfriends, girls the Captain wished were his girlfriend, winner of the "Guess the weight of the Aircraft" competition and, most importantly, the FO's parents!
OD
In answer to the original question...
EU OPS 1.735
"An operator shall not operate an aeroplane unless the following equipment is installed:
(a) In an aeroplane with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, a door between the passenger compartment and the flight deck compartment with a placard ‘crew only’ and a locking means to prevent passengers from opening it without the permission of a member of the flight crew"
UK CAA FODCOM 21/10
"For Commercial Air Transport and Public Transport operations being conducted under EU-OPS, JAR-OPS 3 or the ANO, no person may be carried on the flight deck except a crew member assigned to the flight as an operating crew member, or a passenger permitted to occupy a flight deck seat in accordance with instructions in the operator’s operations manual."
EU OPS 1.735
"An operator shall not operate an aeroplane unless the following equipment is installed:
(a) In an aeroplane with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, a door between the passenger compartment and the flight deck compartment with a placard ‘crew only’ and a locking means to prevent passengers from opening it without the permission of a member of the flight crew"
UK CAA FODCOM 21/10
"For Commercial Air Transport and Public Transport operations being conducted under EU-OPS, JAR-OPS 3 or the ANO, no person may be carried on the flight deck except a crew member assigned to the flight as an operating crew member, or a passenger permitted to occupy a flight deck seat in accordance with instructions in the operator’s operations manual."
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Not sure about the universal implementation of EU rules, Tightslot.
I'll leave you to judge how smart, or not, it is to take the more relaxed view: I know where I stand, but there's always somebody with a different view - I'll give you even money that the airlines involved are flagged out of the 'usual suspect' nations within the EU
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Well T-S, one of the benefits of a Captain using his (or her) discretion, is that they can actually profile the person about to enter their domain.
Unless the FO is an immigrant from a particularly militant region of North Pakistan or insert your own high risk area here it seems highly unlikely that the parents are suddenly about to take the jet down (perhaps same odds as getting hit by a meteorite while in mid cruise), and even in the case that said FO originated from a troubled area, more likely that if he/she had been turned, would do the job alone rather than bring their parents in to it...On the other hand if they were inviting their younger (potentially hot headed) brother.....well you get the point
And before the pedants start flaming the example, its designed to be a provocative one, as there are potentially millions of different combinations, many with nothing to do with terrorism, where risk is profiled and measured in individual cases on a day to day basis, by educated people.
You cannot eliminate risk, only reduce it, if you try to eliminate it completely the only result is you end up in wonderland, living next door to Alice (Alice, who the **** is Alice ? :-)
Unless the FO is an immigrant from a particularly militant region of North Pakistan or insert your own high risk area here it seems highly unlikely that the parents are suddenly about to take the jet down (perhaps same odds as getting hit by a meteorite while in mid cruise), and even in the case that said FO originated from a troubled area, more likely that if he/she had been turned, would do the job alone rather than bring their parents in to it...On the other hand if they were inviting their younger (potentially hot headed) brother.....well you get the point
And before the pedants start flaming the example, its designed to be a provocative one, as there are potentially millions of different combinations, many with nothing to do with terrorism, where risk is profiled and measured in individual cases on a day to day basis, by educated people.
You cannot eliminate risk, only reduce it, if you try to eliminate it completely the only result is you end up in wonderland, living next door to Alice (Alice, who the **** is Alice ? :-)
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I think there is a possibility that the Captain may be performing tasks associated with the safe operation of the aircraft rather than 'profiling' potential visitors. On balance, my preference remains for the locked door/no visitor protocol. To me, it makes sense
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Quite surprised to read this thread. I thought it was a no discussion item. Nobody on the flight deck apart from operating crew except flight crew or cabin crew in uniform could use a flight deck jump seat positioning to/from duty.
Not even Captains wife allowed.
Not even Captains wife allowed.
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Tightslot...
I'm normally 100% behind you on all your posts, but on this one...
Why couldn't we use our discretion to allow our, or your, parents / partner on the flight deck? I'd tell them to shut up and enjoy the ride - no distraction.
Surely common sense has to prevail and the Captain / FO / SCCM can be trusted to make decisions about close friends and family?
DW.
Why couldn't we use our discretion to allow our, or your, parents / partner on the flight deck? I'd tell them to shut up and enjoy the ride - no distraction.
Surely common sense has to prevail and the Captain / FO / SCCM can be trusted to make decisions about close friends and family?
DW.