Too Old for the Emergency Exit?
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Let's talk in general terms, not this specific case.
If an old couple checked in and the agent thought they were not mentally sharp enough to sit in the exit seats, a relatively gentle way of letting them down might be to quote an arbitary age limit.
Without wishing to be rude, I've seen some elderly people who were probably fit enough to handle the door, but in reality should not be sitting in that row. In fact I held a meeting in a hotel meeting in Cyprus last weekend and saw several couples who fell in this category.
So are we suggesting that check in agents say "sir and madam, to avoid any implications of age prejudice, I have observed that you appear to be rather slow in your thought processes and speed of reaction, plus your ability to grasp reality as do the rest of us is in question in my mind.
"Therefore, due to my concerns about your mental competence, I have re-allocated to you to 23 D and E."
Do we really wish check in agents to say things like this? If I had elderly relations, I'd rather they were given a white lie.
I suggest anyone pushing the age prejudice agenda thinks hard about that, as you might get what you wish for.
If an old couple checked in and the agent thought they were not mentally sharp enough to sit in the exit seats, a relatively gentle way of letting them down might be to quote an arbitary age limit.
Without wishing to be rude, I've seen some elderly people who were probably fit enough to handle the door, but in reality should not be sitting in that row. In fact I held a meeting in a hotel meeting in Cyprus last weekend and saw several couples who fell in this category.
So are we suggesting that check in agents say "sir and madam, to avoid any implications of age prejudice, I have observed that you appear to be rather slow in your thought processes and speed of reaction, plus your ability to grasp reality as do the rest of us is in question in my mind.
"Therefore, due to my concerns about your mental competence, I have re-allocated to you to 23 D and E."
Do we really wish check in agents to say things like this? If I had elderly relations, I'd rather they were given a white lie.
I suggest anyone pushing the age prejudice agenda thinks hard about that, as you might get what you wish for.
Sometime back, when my employer insisted on me using the travel agent, they were very pleased to have booked me in the exit row on an internal US flight. They were much less pleased when I told them to change it because walking with a stick, I was not necessarily able to meet the physical requirements!
Most PAX do not realise why people in those rows need to be physically and mentally fit and fluent in the language applicable to the airline.
Most PAX do not realise why people in those rows need to be physically and mentally fit and fluent in the language applicable to the airline.
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Herod
I think if it were tried on me on a UK flight, I'd have them up for discrimination, and take a fitness test to prove my case
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
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77, I agree with you about the authority of the PIC, but I don't think that came into play here. As an update, it appears that the airline concerned has promised exit row seats in future. (suggests someone got it wrong, and raises the question of how long those seats will be promised. 100th birthday?). The party concerned is taking it further, so I'll keep you informed. As an aside to all those suggesting 70 is "past it", may I remind you that there is talk of raising both the national retirement age and the validity of a pilot's licence to that age. Could raise the silly situation of someone being able to operate as captain one day, and the next be deemed to old to sit at the emergenct exit as a passenger. 
If someone pays extra for the exit aisle, and then the CC decide to move them, do they get their money back? How do they prove that they've been moved, as they won't get a new boarding card on the aircraft? I can see promises being given that they will get a note signed by the IC, and I can see it never happening. There should be a procedure - but is there?
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The point of my earlier post, lost in the red mist of outrage, was that there are a number of factors that disqualify a passenger from taking a seat in an overwing exit row, especially the one nearest the exit, but age is not one of them.
Physical handicaps that reduce or remove the ability not only to handle the exit in the right way, fast, but also then to evacuate fast to clear the way is one of those, and obesity is proably the most common and most obvious.
Stupidity, sorry mental incapacity, is another, although quite how you detect it at a glance is not so clear. But I can think of people who would be completely incapable of following the instructions, especially under stress, and have indeed sat next to them in that row and had to explain what the FA was talking about and why, translated into words of one syllable spoken very slowly. One such fit and able 20-something asked me what it was all about, after the CC briefing.
"Don't worry. If we are told to get out fast, you do nothing until I have opened this win-dow. Then I will climb through the hole and you must fol-low. OK?"
"Is the yellow thingy she showed us how to put on so that people can find me?"
"Yes."
"I'll have to get my bag down, though. She made me put it up on that shelf."
"Don't worry, the pi-lot always goes round collecting things up and he'll give it to you after he's gone out through the hole."
"Oh, that's nice, innit."
As I said, age by itself is not a factor.
Physical handicaps that reduce or remove the ability not only to handle the exit in the right way, fast, but also then to evacuate fast to clear the way is one of those, and obesity is proably the most common and most obvious.
Stupidity, sorry mental incapacity, is another, although quite how you detect it at a glance is not so clear. But I can think of people who would be completely incapable of following the instructions, especially under stress, and have indeed sat next to them in that row and had to explain what the FA was talking about and why, translated into words of one syllable spoken very slowly. One such fit and able 20-something asked me what it was all about, after the CC briefing.
"Don't worry. If we are told to get out fast, you do nothing until I have opened this win-dow. Then I will climb through the hole and you must fol-low. OK?"
"Is the yellow thingy she showed us how to put on so that people can find me?"
"Yes."
"I'll have to get my bag down, though. She made me put it up on that shelf."
"Don't worry, the pi-lot always goes round collecting things up and he'll give it to you after he's gone out through the hole."
"Oh, that's nice, innit."
As I said, age by itself is not a factor.
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Mental capability to comprehend the responsibilities associated with these exits is not something that can just affect the elderly.
At some airlines you can sit by the self help exit at 14. Not many of them listen to the briefing given to their parents who could be incapacitated should an incident occur. I doubt that many 14 year olds have the maturity to grasp their potential responsibilities here.
One of the most sensitive situations I have had to deal with here was when a newbie CC who was manning this exit on boarding came to me and said she had " a retard at the overwings" and could I sort it out?? Her remarks were just
!!!. Her lack of empathy and sensitivity was 
Closer inspection revealed that a party of 6 had boarded with speedy boarding and made a beeline for these exits. One of them had learning difficulties. This chap was certainly physically capable of handling this exit and was in his early 20's so met the age criteria.
To cut a long story short I moved him and a companion for take off/landing. He sat in these seats for the cruise so everyone was happy and discretion maintained. This was a full flight and other pax had empathy and were happy to oblige.
The CC concerned earned herself a chat on disability awareness
As for SpB refunds well I note any moves in the interests of safety on my FER. What happens after that I have no idea..
At some airlines you can sit by the self help exit at 14. Not many of them listen to the briefing given to their parents who could be incapacitated should an incident occur. I doubt that many 14 year olds have the maturity to grasp their potential responsibilities here.
One of the most sensitive situations I have had to deal with here was when a newbie CC who was manning this exit on boarding came to me and said she had " a retard at the overwings" and could I sort it out?? Her remarks were just
!!!. Her lack of empathy and sensitivity was Closer inspection revealed that a party of 6 had boarded with speedy boarding and made a beeline for these exits. One of them had learning difficulties. This chap was certainly physically capable of handling this exit and was in his early 20's so met the age criteria.
To cut a long story short I moved him and a companion for take off/landing. He sat in these seats for the cruise so everyone was happy and discretion maintained. This was a full flight and other pax had empathy and were happy to oblige.
The CC concerned earned herself a chat on disability awareness
As for SpB refunds well I note any moves in the interests of safety on my FER. What happens after that I have no idea..
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If it is decided through the authority of the PIC that on safety grounds your seat is to be changed then no argument. Discrimination, age or otherwise doesn't come in to it.
The pilot must be able to justify and substantiate his decision with a logical, probative justification for their decision. Just because someone is a pilot, does not mean all other laws get over-ridden. You can grope a passenger and say there is no argument, because it is on safety grounds and the PIC has authority? Do you know how old the passenger is or you just guessing they can't open the door? It is concerning the ignorance about authority that is sometimes displayed on this forum. You might want to hide behind safety as an excuse, but if someone takes you on, watch out.
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Just because someone is a pilot, does not mean all other laws get over-ridden.
This includes breaking other laws where necessary, for example overriding the rules of the air to protect the aircraft and occupants.
If an aircraft commander has reason to believe that the passenger cannot safely occupy the exit row, then they can make a decision to move them.
It could be for many reasons, e.g. the crew are not convinced that they are fluent enough in the language(s) the crew will use in the event of an evacuations.
The judgment will be generally subjective and prima facie, although in some circumstances like a person with no legs, more definitive.
Of course, a passenger may sue under civil laws and the judges will resolve the matter in court.
I really hope that we do not see matters like this going to court, it will not help aviation safety.
Operating decisions such as these are not 'hiding behind safety', they are implementing it and as lowcostdolly shows in her post, it can be achieved pragmatically and with consideration.
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The Other Guy
What absolute nonsense.
I wouldn't fancy your chances. Most crew are fairly pragmatic and very liberal with passengers however at some stage passengers have to accept that some items are not up for discussion. They just have to accept the pilots decision. If you think the decision is blatently wrong, by all means take it up with the company later.
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77
I agree it was a good post. I also agree a captain can break some laws for the safe operation of the aircraft but he cannot break any law he thinks fit. If he does, as I said, he has to be able to justify it. If not, he has broken a law with the accompanying consequences. The point I was making was your position of discrimination, age etc doesn't come into it. It does. If you want to swagger back saying you're a captain and your decision cannot be challenged and age discrimination be damned and you think they are just too old, then I hope you try it one day. A pilot has to be satisfied through appropriate enquiry that a passenger cannot meet the inherent safety requirements to sit in an exit seat, regardless of age or any other discriminatory heading. As Final 3 Greens stated, it has to be done pragmatically and with consideration. Your approach suggests an ego problem. As a very frequent flyer, I am more than happy to comply with any safety direction but if purported authority is used capriciously, I am also happy to pursue the matter. If I think a pilot is wrong and I follow it up, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions.
I agree it was a good post. I also agree a captain can break some laws for the safe operation of the aircraft but he cannot break any law he thinks fit. If he does, as I said, he has to be able to justify it. If not, he has broken a law with the accompanying consequences. The point I was making was your position of discrimination, age etc doesn't come into it. It does. If you want to swagger back saying you're a captain and your decision cannot be challenged and age discrimination be damned and you think they are just too old, then I hope you try it one day. A pilot has to be satisfied through appropriate enquiry that a passenger cannot meet the inherent safety requirements to sit in an exit seat, regardless of age or any other discriminatory heading. As Final 3 Greens stated, it has to be done pragmatically and with consideration. Your approach suggests an ego problem. As a very frequent flyer, I am more than happy to comply with any safety direction but if purported authority is used capriciously, I am also happy to pursue the matter. If I think a pilot is wrong and I follow it up, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions.
We are talking about sitting in an exit row with a few inches more space. An exit that one day might need using for it's purpose.
If you are going to fight for equal rights and freedoms I can think of a few things a bit more important.
If you are going to fight for equal rights and freedoms I can think of a few things a bit more important.
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TheOtherGuy
As a very frequent flyer, I am more than happy to comply with any safety direction but if purported authority is used capriciously, I am also happy to pursue the matter. If I think a pilot is wrong and I follow it up, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions.
I also said I thought crew would act in a pragmatic manner. Crew sometimes get it wrong, however the problem usually comes from pax.
And by the way I don't think its an ego problem, most crew just want a quiet day out and get on with the job.
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QUOTE TheOtherGuy
"It is concerning the ignorance about authority that is sometimes displayed on this forum".
Really
???. As CC I've been visiting/contributing to this forum for a fair few months now as it gives me insight into what makes pax tick. Generally the cabin occupants on here have a lot of respect re the authority of the operating crew on any flight. Much more in fact than what I experience on a day to day basis when I am working. I am regularly challenged on the most basic instructions given to the pax by the pax.
I suspect the comment here though was aimed at aircrew contributers.
Whether you like it or not OtherGuy there is, and has to be, a chain of command and therefore authority on an aircraft for it's safe operation. At the top of that chain is the most experienced and qualified person on board to operate that flight.....the Captain.
However he delegates certain responsibilities to the CC. As an SCCM I ensure these are carried out on his behalf. If I say you don't sit by a self help exit you don't......end of. At my company the Captain will back my decision.
That said most SCCM's have the savvy to exercise discretion, tact and diplomacy. I think this can be achieved at all times. I have never yet had a complaint against me and I have moved a fair few SLF from these exits for take off/landing for various reasons.....not just age.
Ego's from the crew do not come into this at all but I have to say I have met a few pax who have ego's that should be hold loaded they are so excessive
At the end of the day on safety you do as you are told at the time. You have recourse after this direct to the company if you don't agree.
"It is concerning the ignorance about authority that is sometimes displayed on this forum".
Really
???. As CC I've been visiting/contributing to this forum for a fair few months now as it gives me insight into what makes pax tick. Generally the cabin occupants on here have a lot of respect re the authority of the operating crew on any flight. Much more in fact than what I experience on a day to day basis when I am working. I am regularly challenged on the most basic instructions given to the pax by the pax.I suspect the comment here though was aimed at aircrew contributers.
Whether you like it or not OtherGuy there is, and has to be, a chain of command and therefore authority on an aircraft for it's safe operation. At the top of that chain is the most experienced and qualified person on board to operate that flight.....the Captain.
However he delegates certain responsibilities to the CC. As an SCCM I ensure these are carried out on his behalf. If I say you don't sit by a self help exit you don't......end of. At my company the Captain will back my decision.
That said most SCCM's have the savvy to exercise discretion, tact and diplomacy. I think this can be achieved at all times. I have never yet had a complaint against me and I have moved a fair few SLF from these exits for take off/landing for various reasons.....not just age.
Ego's from the crew do not come into this at all but I have to say I have met a few pax who have ego's that should be hold loaded they are so excessive
At the end of the day on safety you do as you are told at the time. You have recourse after this direct to the company if you don't agree.
Last edited by lowcostdolly; 26th Apr 2010 at 15:22. Reason: Grammar mistake
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Arbituary age limits??
Yes I know this is against the law before I am shouted down!! 
Also personally I am not a fan of age criteria but I feel it could have a place given a personal experience recently.
F3G read your post and was going to PM but I think this has relevance publically to what you have said and also has relevance to the difficulties crew face on this sensitive subject on a daily basis.
In the past few weeks I have travelled with my Dad as SLF to/from Jersey on a couple of carriers. Both have self help exits.
Dad (and me) like sitting by these exits for the comfort reasons. Dad would happily pay for this if required.
Dad is 76, of robust build and fully mobile. His only diagnosed medical problem is high blood pressure for which he takes medication.....the CC would never know this.
However I know Dad is not the sharpest tool in the box mentally....bless him. His short term memory is not what it was and when he is put under stress he cannot recall what he has been told in the last 30 minutes. He would be a total disaster at these exits in the event of an emergency.
For that reason when I travel with him we have other seats "allocated" but I quietly let the crew know I can man an exit if needed.
I would question how many pax, like my Dad, are actually sitting at these exits in reality which, because of age disrimination laws, we as CC are not allowed to challenge outright and have to find another avenue....
I'm not saying an arbituary age limit is the answer but it has merit on face value. Can anyone suggest alternatives which would please everyone of all ages and the crew who have to, at the end of the day, ensure these exits are appropriatly manned??
Also personally I am not a fan of age criteria but I feel it could have a place given a personal experience recently.
F3G read your post and was going to PM but I think this has relevance publically to what you have said and also has relevance to the difficulties crew face on this sensitive subject on a daily basis.
In the past few weeks I have travelled with my Dad as SLF to/from Jersey on a couple of carriers. Both have self help exits.
Dad (and me) like sitting by these exits for the comfort reasons
. Dad would happily pay for this if required.Dad is 76, of robust build and fully mobile. His only diagnosed medical problem is high blood pressure for which he takes medication.....the CC would never know this.
However I know Dad is not the sharpest tool in the box mentally....bless him. His short term memory is not what it was and when he is put under stress he cannot recall what he has been told in the last 30 minutes. He would be a total disaster at these exits in the event of an emergency.
For that reason when I travel with him we have other seats "allocated" but I quietly let the crew know I can man an exit if needed.
I would question how many pax, like my Dad, are actually sitting at these exits in reality which, because of age disrimination laws, we as CC are not allowed to challenge outright and have to find another avenue....
I'm not saying an arbituary age limit is the answer but it has merit on face value. Can anyone suggest alternatives which would please everyone of all ages and the crew who have to, at the end of the day, ensure these exits are appropriatly manned??