What Conditions Dictate The Removal Of A Passenger?
Guest
Posts: n/a
FPPF,
So you think it is right and fair for a large group of passenegrs such as the one I described to (essentially) hold an airline to ransom, costing it US$1000's per hour in delays (and possible misconnections on the outbound/return legs) for rightly offloading two abusive passengers; one which had been drinking and may in an emergency cost the life of others?
I think (hope) not!
Perhaps you need to broaden your horizons and see the big picture occassionally.
So you think it is right and fair for a large group of passenegrs such as the one I described to (essentially) hold an airline to ransom, costing it US$1000's per hour in delays (and possible misconnections on the outbound/return legs) for rightly offloading two abusive passengers; one which had been drinking and may in an emergency cost the life of others?
I think (hope) not!
Perhaps you need to broaden your horizons and see the big picture occassionally.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yes, it is the luck of the draw, in the broad grey area between obvious extremes.
But I have to say that in the (large, national) airline I work for, I've noticed that the publicity given to "air rage" (funny how naming a phenomenon makes it both more acceptable and more threatening...) has led many F/As to act like the Gestapo. The fact that someone has had a lot to drink, or might even be decidedly tipsy, does NOT mean that they are necessarily going to become difficult, abusive, aggressive, violent or dangerous.
I've seen a lot of situations inflamed, or even created, by (usually) very young FAs telling an obviously seasoned traveller that he or she has "had too much." Next thing, A REALLY nasty situation.
Yes, safety is paramount. But some poor pax piling into the G&Ts a bit heavily is not AUTOMATICALLY a threat to it.
But I have to say that in the (large, national) airline I work for, I've noticed that the publicity given to "air rage" (funny how naming a phenomenon makes it both more acceptable and more threatening...) has led many F/As to act like the Gestapo. The fact that someone has had a lot to drink, or might even be decidedly tipsy, does NOT mean that they are necessarily going to become difficult, abusive, aggressive, violent or dangerous.
I've seen a lot of situations inflamed, or even created, by (usually) very young FAs telling an obviously seasoned traveller that he or she has "had too much." Next thing, A REALLY nasty situation.
Yes, safety is paramount. But some poor pax piling into the G&Ts a bit heavily is not AUTOMATICALLY a threat to it.
Guest
Posts: n/a
For me, these amorphous, undefined parameters that allow a FA to determine when to boot a passenger off a flight could be a cause for concern. "Power plays" and "testing limits" may or may not enter into the equation.
In my many years of flying, I've only had one "run in" with a FA. It was on Southwest Airlines where they have "open seating." I was boarding with a small carry-on suitcase and placed it in the overhead bin. The particular aisle seat I wanted was, perhaps, eight or ten rows further back in the aircraft. SWA places a lot of emphasis on "quick turnarounds" and I was just trying to help the boarding process for them.
For some reason, the FA took exception to my placing my suitcase in an overhead bin that was so far away from the seat I would be occupying. I couldn't understand her logic. What difference did it make? She had me come back, retrieve my bag, and had me to place it in the bin directly over my seat. Without thinking, in my usual sarcastic style, I said loud enough for several people to hear "Oh, I wasn't aware we had assigned bin space!" She mumbled some lame explanation that, to this day, still doesn't make a whole lot of sense!
Maybe she was Drax or Poe and she was giving me a hard time because she knew I was Mr. Perplexed (that's an inside joke!)!
The point being, in this new age of heightened awareness of air rage and passengers that can potentially cause problems at FL320, I suppose, had I been dealing with the "wrong" FA (former Marine Gunnery Sergeant Hartman from Full Metal Jacket?), I might have been acquainting myself with airport security officers.
I notice in the safety spiel they have a new clause. I can't remember the exact wording, but it basically says "The FAA requires you to follow all crewmember instructions." Yes, even those that make absolutely no sense or logic. If you don't, we may boot you off the aircraft for being a potential (there's that word again) problem passenger.
I suppose, in the example shown above, I was the one that sealed my fate by my actions and restrained commentary. I followed her instructions, albeit begrudgingly. Had I said something like "If YOU don't like where my bag is, then YOU move it!" or "It's fine where it is!" I possibly could have found out how uncomfortable tightly-bound handcuffs are (that is, outside of a bedroom environment!).
Some people are natural-born a**holes. As for me, with some "method acting," it takes me a bit to work into the role!
[This message has been edited by Mr. Perplexed (edited 04 July 2001).]
In my many years of flying, I've only had one "run in" with a FA. It was on Southwest Airlines where they have "open seating." I was boarding with a small carry-on suitcase and placed it in the overhead bin. The particular aisle seat I wanted was, perhaps, eight or ten rows further back in the aircraft. SWA places a lot of emphasis on "quick turnarounds" and I was just trying to help the boarding process for them.
For some reason, the FA took exception to my placing my suitcase in an overhead bin that was so far away from the seat I would be occupying. I couldn't understand her logic. What difference did it make? She had me come back, retrieve my bag, and had me to place it in the bin directly over my seat. Without thinking, in my usual sarcastic style, I said loud enough for several people to hear "Oh, I wasn't aware we had assigned bin space!" She mumbled some lame explanation that, to this day, still doesn't make a whole lot of sense! Maybe she was Drax or Poe and she was giving me a hard time because she knew I was Mr. Perplexed (that's an inside joke!)!
The point being, in this new age of heightened awareness of air rage and passengers that can potentially cause problems at FL320, I suppose, had I been dealing with the "wrong" FA (former Marine Gunnery Sergeant Hartman from Full Metal Jacket?), I might have been acquainting myself with airport security officers.
I notice in the safety spiel they have a new clause. I can't remember the exact wording, but it basically says "The FAA requires you to follow all crewmember instructions." Yes, even those that make absolutely no sense or logic. If you don't, we may boot you off the aircraft for being a potential (there's that word again) problem passenger.
I suppose, in the example shown above, I was the one that sealed my fate by my actions and restrained commentary. I followed her instructions, albeit begrudgingly. Had I said something like "If YOU don't like where my bag is, then YOU move it!" or "It's fine where it is!" I possibly could have found out how uncomfortable tightly-bound handcuffs are (that is, outside of a bedroom environment!).
Some people are natural-born a**holes. As for me, with some "method acting," it takes me a bit to work into the role!
[This message has been edited by Mr. Perplexed (edited 04 July 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Nicely put, Cabinkitten.
Is there any other job in the world where you are expected to put up with ANYTHING and still smile and not answer back? And that in a situation where many of the people you're trying to smile at are stressed before they arrive, and it's All Your Fault..?
As for being assumed to be an airhead (without even the neat pun intended) because of what I do....
I was recently informal with a passenger. No, I mean it: Informal. Not Rude, not Aggressive, not even Unobliging. I just did not do the Plastic Kowtow. He wrote to complain.
Keep smiling..!
Is there any other job in the world where you are expected to put up with ANYTHING and still smile and not answer back? And that in a situation where many of the people you're trying to smile at are stressed before they arrive, and it's All Your Fault..?
As for being assumed to be an airhead (without even the neat pun intended) because of what I do....
I was recently informal with a passenger. No, I mean it: Informal. Not Rude, not Aggressive, not even Unobliging. I just did not do the Plastic Kowtow. He wrote to complain.
Keep smiling..!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Not long ago I was flying on one of my regular BA flights to BHX. I had a row all to myself and whilst occupying the window seat I placed my hand baggage under the middle seat. The F/A asked me to place it under the seat in front of me until after take-off! I figured her reasoning was that it could slide back during take off and thus possibly impede my access to the aisle in the event of an emergency evacuation. Nevertheless, it was the first time I had ever been asked to do this. Since that flight I have flown four more sectors on BA with a row to myself - me at the window and bag under the middle seat. Haven't been asked once to move it. This and many other experiences leave me in no doubt that there is no consistency among F/As. This is what can lead to unpleasant situations. You (the pax) do something for years without any comment from the cabin crew and then one day WHAM you get bollocked!
My request to F/As: Follow only company approved policies (SOPs) and don't invent your own interpretations of these rules. For the sake of the passengers, be consistent in applying safety related rules.
My request to F/As: Follow only company approved policies (SOPs) and don't invent your own interpretations of these rules. For the sake of the passengers, be consistent in applying safety related rules.
Guest
Posts: n/a
In my nearly 30 years as a f/a, I've only had two occassions to request a pax be removed. Both times involved alcohol and profanity (theirs, not mine!). It's an FAR that we not board intoxicated pax. I don't know any f/a who would have a pax removed unless it appeared to a serious problem in the making. It can be a bit subjective, I suppose, but why would one create paperwork and potentially an even bigger problem by tossing off anyone who offends you? Doesn't make sense.
Most of us have pretty thick skin and take lots of undeserved nasty behavior in stride. As has been pointed out, if we tossed everyone who acted snotty, we'd be flying around with light pax loads.
There has to be more to the story. Perhaps the gentleman making the comment smelled of liquor. I'll admit, I hate to hear those bins being slammed shut and can understand why pax would make complaint of it. But why would the f/a just have the guy removed? Doesn't sound right to me at all.
Most of us have pretty thick skin and take lots of undeserved nasty behavior in stride. As has been pointed out, if we tossed everyone who acted snotty, we'd be flying around with light pax loads.
There has to be more to the story. Perhaps the gentleman making the comment smelled of liquor. I'll admit, I hate to hear those bins being slammed shut and can understand why pax would make complaint of it. But why would the f/a just have the guy removed? Doesn't sound right to me at all.
Guest
Posts: n/a
As Icarus says, BRUpax, but while juggling a laden tray, the pax's winter coat, vocal twin 3-month-olds, a fixed grin, and asking if there is anything else you can do for him.. 
I think much of the "inconsistency" in FAs' approaches stems from the fact much of the job is about common sense. Usually, you have to ask yourself whether a situation, bag stowage or behaviour really is potentially dangerous. Drunken passengers make up a grey area and that's where experience comes into play. But for me, the answer is usually fairly clear.
But we are all individuals, not bakelite automata, and have different levels of common sense and imagination. One FA's "It'll do" is another's "What might happen if..?"
It amazes me how often passengers refuse adamantly to part with their hand baggage. I have even had businessmen frantically cuddle their briefcases, while roundly abusing me for trying to stow them for the aeon it doesn't (usually!) take to get off, or back onto, the ground.
As is being discussed in another thread, is it really more important to keep hold of that precious bag / thwart the FA, than to stay alive?
I think much of the "inconsistency" in FAs' approaches stems from the fact much of the job is about common sense. Usually, you have to ask yourself whether a situation, bag stowage or behaviour really is potentially dangerous. Drunken passengers make up a grey area and that's where experience comes into play. But for me, the answer is usually fairly clear.
But we are all individuals, not bakelite automata, and have different levels of common sense and imagination. One FA's "It'll do" is another's "What might happen if..?"
It amazes me how often passengers refuse adamantly to part with their hand baggage. I have even had businessmen frantically cuddle their briefcases, while roundly abusing me for trying to stow them for the aeon it doesn't (usually!) take to get off, or back onto, the ground.
As is being discussed in another thread, is it really more important to keep hold of that precious bag / thwart the FA, than to stay alive?
Guest
Posts: n/a
At last "common sense" that and experience is what makes the difference between good and bad f/a's. We all have bad days, hopefully training helps some of us deal with it.
I've had the sarcastic comments from f/a's, normally the younger ones I might add, I've also seen pax who needed a good smack in the mouth, something you f/a's cannot do!!!!
Bottom line if a pax is abusive, I will happily help, I've done it before and would do it again, at the same time I have written a complaint about a particlary nasty f/a.
General observation:
Asian airlines....you see more abuse!!!!
Western Airlines.. Less!!!!
I've had the sarcastic comments from f/a's, normally the younger ones I might add, I've also seen pax who needed a good smack in the mouth, something you f/a's cannot do!!!!
Bottom line if a pax is abusive, I will happily help, I've done it before and would do it again, at the same time I have written a complaint about a particlary nasty f/a.
General observation:
Asian airlines....you see more abuse!!!!
Western Airlines.. Less!!!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I encountered the passenger who was on board the aircraft in question and witnessed the incident. Here is his exchange of letters with Delta and brief commentary.
Mr. Perplexed
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:11:20 -0700
Subject: PPRUNE Discussion Thread
Below, from bottom up, are my original comments to Delta Airlines, their initial response, and my reply. I hope this is sufficient for your discussion thread purposes. I'm curious enough now to watch the discussion, but I don't really want to join in. Thanks.
====================================
Ms. Padelford:
Thank you for your response to my initial correspondence. I find it quite difficult to believe, however, that there is no "historical data to determine the events that took place." How many people does Delta
escort off their airplanes for "air rage"? I certainly hope the numbers are not so high as to make it difficult to find a single incidence, especially when you know the exact flight number and date.
Even more disturbing to me is the fact that your response appears to be "canned", and if you look at it carefully, compare it with my original comments, you might even consider it an admission that the Flight Attendant was wrong, and therefore the passenger might have been wrongly ejected from the plane.
I told Delta in my original message that I don't have all the facts about what was said by the passenger, so possibly an "air-rage"
ejection was proper. My only purpose was to bring to Delta's attention that the entire incident was started by your Flight Attendant. This was a very serious incident, in my mind, and worthy of more than a
"canned" response.
/s/
===========================================
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:05:04 -0400 Customer Care <[email protected]> writes:
Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,
Thank you for contacting Delta Air Lines about your recent trip.
While I do not have any historical data to determine the events that took place, courteous service is stressed at Delta. We make it very clear to our personnel that discourtesy or a lack of respect will not be tolerated.
Our people are given careful training when they are hired, and your report about the actions of the flight attendant concerns us a great deal. It is disappointing to have the efforts of many undone by the poor performance of one individual. Please let me assure you that appropriate corrective measures will be taken to prevent a recurrence.
Please accept our apology for the unfavorable impression you received in this instance.
We appreciate your selection of Delta and will always consider it a privilege to be of service.
Sincerely,
Sally MorrisPadelford
Manager, Customer Care
==========================================
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
To Delta Airlines on their Web Site Comments page:
Comment:
As we were boarding this flight a tall, thin, Black Flight Attendant was walking from the rear of the plane towards the front, closing the overhead bin doors. Actually she was SLAMMING them - very, very loudly.
I was seated in 27D, listening to music with earphones on and I could hear the sound quite loudly from behind me.
A male passenger, some rows behind me, complained to the Flight Attendant about the noise she was making. His voice was loud,
and he was not very calm, but his message was simple: "Can you please stop slamming those doors shut - the noise is killing me."
Further discussion ensued that I could not hear distinctly, due to the earphones. When the discussion ended, quite quickly as I
recall, the Flight Attendant resumed her way forward, SLAMMING the bin doors shut even louder than before, including the ones directly over my head.
The look on her face that would have stopped a Mack Truck.
I heard or saw no further discussion about the matter until we were just about to depart when the passenger was escorted off the
plane, quite upset but being completely cooperative.
I'll admit I did not hear everything said. I'll admit that the passenger was loud and even a bit obnoxious, but I saw or heard nothing warranting ejection from the aircraft.
Presuming, however, that the ejection was proper, I can state categorically that the Flight Attendant precipitated the entire thing. I can imagine that the passenger involved probably had had a bad day and a migrain headache. Nevertheless, there was no valid reason I can think of why the Flight Attendant had to SLAM the bin doors shut, and once called on the issue she made certain that she SLAMMED them even harder.
I don't condone rude or obstreperous (sp?) passengers, but I truly don't believe that this incident was worthy of his being ejected.
Mr. Perplexed
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:11:20 -0700
Subject: PPRUNE Discussion Thread
Below, from bottom up, are my original comments to Delta Airlines, their initial response, and my reply. I hope this is sufficient for your discussion thread purposes. I'm curious enough now to watch the discussion, but I don't really want to join in. Thanks.
====================================
Ms. Padelford:
Thank you for your response to my initial correspondence. I find it quite difficult to believe, however, that there is no "historical data to determine the events that took place." How many people does Delta
escort off their airplanes for "air rage"? I certainly hope the numbers are not so high as to make it difficult to find a single incidence, especially when you know the exact flight number and date.
Even more disturbing to me is the fact that your response appears to be "canned", and if you look at it carefully, compare it with my original comments, you might even consider it an admission that the Flight Attendant was wrong, and therefore the passenger might have been wrongly ejected from the plane.
I told Delta in my original message that I don't have all the facts about what was said by the passenger, so possibly an "air-rage"
ejection was proper. My only purpose was to bring to Delta's attention that the entire incident was started by your Flight Attendant. This was a very serious incident, in my mind, and worthy of more than a
"canned" response.
/s/
===========================================
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:05:04 -0400 Customer Care <[email protected]> writes:
Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,
Thank you for contacting Delta Air Lines about your recent trip.
While I do not have any historical data to determine the events that took place, courteous service is stressed at Delta. We make it very clear to our personnel that discourtesy or a lack of respect will not be tolerated.
Our people are given careful training when they are hired, and your report about the actions of the flight attendant concerns us a great deal. It is disappointing to have the efforts of many undone by the poor performance of one individual. Please let me assure you that appropriate corrective measures will be taken to prevent a recurrence.
Please accept our apology for the unfavorable impression you received in this instance.
We appreciate your selection of Delta and will always consider it a privilege to be of service.
Sincerely,
Sally MorrisPadelford
Manager, Customer Care
==========================================
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
To Delta Airlines on their Web Site Comments page:
Comment:
As we were boarding this flight a tall, thin, Black Flight Attendant was walking from the rear of the plane towards the front, closing the overhead bin doors. Actually she was SLAMMING them - very, very loudly.
I was seated in 27D, listening to music with earphones on and I could hear the sound quite loudly from behind me.
A male passenger, some rows behind me, complained to the Flight Attendant about the noise she was making. His voice was loud,
and he was not very calm, but his message was simple: "Can you please stop slamming those doors shut - the noise is killing me."
Further discussion ensued that I could not hear distinctly, due to the earphones. When the discussion ended, quite quickly as I
recall, the Flight Attendant resumed her way forward, SLAMMING the bin doors shut even louder than before, including the ones directly over my head.
The look on her face that would have stopped a Mack Truck.
I heard or saw no further discussion about the matter until we were just about to depart when the passenger was escorted off the
plane, quite upset but being completely cooperative.
I'll admit I did not hear everything said. I'll admit that the passenger was loud and even a bit obnoxious, but I saw or heard nothing warranting ejection from the aircraft.
Presuming, however, that the ejection was proper, I can state categorically that the Flight Attendant precipitated the entire thing. I can imagine that the passenger involved probably had had a bad day and a migrain headache. Nevertheless, there was no valid reason I can think of why the Flight Attendant had to SLAM the bin doors shut, and once called on the issue she made certain that she SLAMMED them even harder.
I don't condone rude or obstreperous (sp?) passengers, but I truly don't believe that this incident was worthy of his being ejected.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: S.E England
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr P.
I don't know but it is possible that if any legal proceedings ensued form the incident, either criminal or civil, then it would be unwise and incorrect to discuss the details with a third party. Having said that why not just tell you, rather than saying there are no details.
I also admit to having doubts as to the need or the reason to have to explain this Gentleman's case to another party not involved with the incident (At least not directly)
You, quite rightly in your opinion, raised concerns over the attitude of the FA, and had every right to complain. The reply, I agree was canned and in no way comphrensive, but what did you expect.
"The staff member in question has been severly reprimanded and a strong warning letter has been placed on her personal records. Please send a self addresed stamped envelope if you would also like a copy of this letter. Rest assured such behaviour will not be tolerated from our staff, and we ask you to be constantly deligent in trying to search out any other 'rouge' staff members when flying with Delta....."
I'm sorry the above is OTT I know but what sort of reply does satisfy a disgruntled complainer? I do agree though that the reply does leave you to wonder if you original complaint was actually read and taken in.
I don't know but it is possible that if any legal proceedings ensued form the incident, either criminal or civil, then it would be unwise and incorrect to discuss the details with a third party. Having said that why not just tell you, rather than saying there are no details.
I also admit to having doubts as to the need or the reason to have to explain this Gentleman's case to another party not involved with the incident (At least not directly)
You, quite rightly in your opinion, raised concerns over the attitude of the FA, and had every right to complain. The reply, I agree was canned and in no way comphrensive, but what did you expect.
"The staff member in question has been severly reprimanded and a strong warning letter has been placed on her personal records. Please send a self addresed stamped envelope if you would also like a copy of this letter. Rest assured such behaviour will not be tolerated from our staff, and we ask you to be constantly deligent in trying to search out any other 'rouge' staff members when flying with Delta....."
I'm sorry the above is OTT I know but what sort of reply does satisfy a disgruntled complainer? I do agree though that the reply does leave you to wonder if you original complaint was actually read and taken in.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Reading,Thames Valley, England
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ive read through the entire thread and while I can see that the FA was being a bit annoying in the way she slammed the lockers I do not personally feel that this warranted such a vigourous response from the PAX in question .
In an aircraft about to depart there are many important tasks for FAs to perform and some require to be done quickly and thoroughly. Im an easy going type myself, it would take a direct personal insult or some really petty and officious behavior on the part of an FA to make me complain. Merely slamming an overhead locker door would hardly bother me at all.
Now we have heard one side of this situation, that of the PAX via his self appointed advocate Mr Perplexed. I would like to hear the FA's story, but dont suppose I ever will. It is stated that she was black, was a racist remark made to or about her? Did the angry passenger make some threat to her? Without such knowledge it is hard to judge.
In the end, with the many cases recently of air rage, serious assaults on Cabin Staff, even a madman gaining entry to the Flight Deck and almost puting a 747 out of control in flight over Kenya, I will sit easier in my seat if firm action is a taken by crew against potentially threatening or badly behaved passengers and if they get put off the aircraft then its a price worth paying for a peaceful and safe flight for well behaved passengers, the vast majority, and crew alike. To the grumpy passenger all I can say is TOUGH!
In an aircraft about to depart there are many important tasks for FAs to perform and some require to be done quickly and thoroughly. Im an easy going type myself, it would take a direct personal insult or some really petty and officious behavior on the part of an FA to make me complain. Merely slamming an overhead locker door would hardly bother me at all.
Now we have heard one side of this situation, that of the PAX via his self appointed advocate Mr Perplexed. I would like to hear the FA's story, but dont suppose I ever will. It is stated that she was black, was a racist remark made to or about her? Did the angry passenger make some threat to her? Without such knowledge it is hard to judge.
In the end, with the many cases recently of air rage, serious assaults on Cabin Staff, even a madman gaining entry to the Flight Deck and almost puting a 747 out of control in flight over Kenya, I will sit easier in my seat if firm action is a taken by crew against potentially threatening or badly behaved passengers and if they get put off the aircraft then its a price worth paying for a peaceful and safe flight for well behaved passengers, the vast majority, and crew alike. To the grumpy passenger all I can say is TOUGH!
