Flight Canx - Your Views Please
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Flight Canx - Your Views Please
As mentioned in another thread, I have an RUH-LHR-MUC flight with bmi on 25/2, STA 1005, with the LHR-MUC segment a LH codeshare.
I then have a flight onward with Air Malta at 1240, on another ticket.
The minimum check in time is -30 minutes, so the inbound flight would have to be very late in order for me to miss the KM flight and I have trave insurance against the failure of public transport, so effectively risk free.
Now, bmi informs me that LH have cancelled the 0715/1005 flight LHR/MUC and can only accomodate me on a 1315/1615 alternative, clearly no use.
Furthermore, they will only cancel and refund the whole RUH-LHR-MUC trip, not the LHR-MUC portion. (I had offered to find my own way back to Malta from LHR, if they refunded me that segment.)
Does this seem a tad unreasonable to anyone?
I then have a flight onward with Air Malta at 1240, on another ticket.
The minimum check in time is -30 minutes, so the inbound flight would have to be very late in order for me to miss the KM flight and I have trave insurance against the failure of public transport, so effectively risk free.
Now, bmi informs me that LH have cancelled the 0715/1005 flight LHR/MUC and can only accomodate me on a 1315/1615 alternative, clearly no use.
Furthermore, they will only cancel and refund the whole RUH-LHR-MUC trip, not the LHR-MUC portion. (I had offered to find my own way back to Malta from LHR, if they refunded me that segment.)
Does this seem a tad unreasonable to anyone?
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I'd say it's quite normal but not acceptable.
They should really try to accomodate you by endorsing your ticket for use on another carrier that flies the same route at a similar time.
Can you bump the Malta flight back a bit or is that non-flexible?
p.s. Just checked the Lufty site and they are still selling tickets on the 0605 flight out of LHR
They should really try to accomodate you by endorsing your ticket for use on another carrier that flies the same route at a similar time.
Can you bump the Malta flight back a bit or is that non-flexible?
p.s. Just checked the Lufty site and they are still selling tickets on the 0605 flight out of LHR
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The refund would depend on the fare conditons for the RUH/LHR/MUC sectors (assuming it is a through ticket). It could well be that there is very little difference in the fare RUH/LHR AND RUH/LHR/MUC and when you then take the UK taxes into account you could find yourself owing bmi money as the fare terminating in LHR is more expensive. Just a thought.
Presumably the cancellation is a knock on effect from the LH strike?
Presumably the cancellation is a knock on effect from the LH strike?
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p.p.s The revised timetable for the 25th is
http://www.lufthansa.com/mediapool/p...dia_788966.pdf
Any re-instated flights will be notified on their website tonight for the 25th's.
http://www.lufthansa.com/mediapool/p...dia_788966.pdf
Any re-instated flights will be notified on their website tonight for the 25th's.
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Fargoo
I can pretty much do whatever I want with the KM ticket, as it is a flexible business class fare, but after 4 weeks abroad, I don't wish to delay another day by slipping it back to Friday.
My thinking was I'd just swap my KM MUC-MLA for a LHR-MLA (I can do that) and stop my journey at LHR.
But the agent says, following a conversation with the airline, that bmi would insist on checking the luggage through to MUC.
Frontcheck
bmi cancelled the LHR MUC flight, not me, so I don't think your logic is correct in this instance.
bmi conditions are
10.2 INVOLUNTARY REFUNDS
10.2.1.2 if a portion of the Ticket has been used, the refund will be not less than the difference between the fare paid and the applicable fare for travel between the points for which the Ticket has been used.
As I read that, that means the total cost of the ticket less the portion of that cost for the LHR-MUC segment.
One can hardly cancel a flight on a customer and then alter the fare basis for the remaining usable portion, even though that may be higher if booked separately.
All bmi has done is to re-ticket me, under my protest that I do not accept this arrangement.
Yes, it is a throught ticket on bmi paper, D class.
I can pretty much do whatever I want with the KM ticket, as it is a flexible business class fare, but after 4 weeks abroad, I don't wish to delay another day by slipping it back to Friday.
My thinking was I'd just swap my KM MUC-MLA for a LHR-MLA (I can do that) and stop my journey at LHR.
But the agent says, following a conversation with the airline, that bmi would insist on checking the luggage through to MUC.
Frontcheck
The refund would depend on the fare conditons for the RUH/LHR/MUC sectors (assuming it is a through ticket). It could well be that there is very little difference in the fare RUH/LHR AND RUH/LHR/MUC and when you then take the UK taxes into account you could find yourself owing bmi money as the fare terminating in LHR is more expensive. Just a thought.
bmi conditions are
10.2 INVOLUNTARY REFUNDS
10.2.1.2 if a portion of the Ticket has been used, the refund will be not less than the difference between the fare paid and the applicable fare for travel between the points for which the Ticket has been used.
As I read that, that means the total cost of the ticket less the portion of that cost for the LHR-MUC segment.
One can hardly cancel a flight on a customer and then alter the fare basis for the remaining usable portion, even though that may be higher if booked separately.
All bmi has done is to re-ticket me, under my protest that I do not accept this arrangement.
Yes, it is a throught ticket on bmi paper, D class.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 23rd Feb 2010 at 17:38.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
This breaks the now traditional security rule that baggage always flies with its owner.
If you fail to board on the last segment BMI should have no option but to offload your luggage. However I guess they might try and bill you for any delay unless of course you could make it a condition of travel?
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If you fail to board on the last segment BMI should have no option but to offload your luggage. However I guess they might try and bill you for any delay unless of course you could make it a condition of travel?
You cannot force someone to take a flight that they did not book, I believe any attempt to do so woud be a very serious criminal offence.
bmi didnt cancel the LHR-MUC leg LH did
Now maybe they cancelled it because of action by LH, but that does not change the fact.
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As far as I understand it the basis of your contract is with bmi who have contracted to carry you from A to B to C on a given date. They as codeshare partner (apart from the fact that DLH own them) have a contract with DLH for that seat frm B to C for which they will pay DLH a percentage of your fare. What DLH do, or don't do, is not germain to the situation as bmi have booked you on the DLH flight under their flight number.
If your ticket is a through ticket then surely the party to the contract "responsible" for any delay or disruption to your journey is held responsible and has to ensure your journey is completed as expeditiously as possible without any extra cost to you and be responsible for paying for inconvenience. However, as the Air Malta section of your journey is on a different ticket, as far as bmi are concerned therir liability ends at their destination, though a reasonable carrier would see the whole picture and try to help by, if necessary rerouting you..
Airlines are not the only companies which try to get away with blue murder. Had the ticket been purchased in the UK their action may have fallen under the unfair conditions rules for contracts.
You may be better cancelling the deal and getting your credit card company to refund you as the contract looks to have been broken as the action of bmi is unilateral.
Finally, check the EU rules regarding cancellation and delay as the affected part of the journey is on an intra European flight and contact IATA for their interpretation..
If your ticket is a through ticket then surely the party to the contract "responsible" for any delay or disruption to your journey is held responsible and has to ensure your journey is completed as expeditiously as possible without any extra cost to you and be responsible for paying for inconvenience. However, as the Air Malta section of your journey is on a different ticket, as far as bmi are concerned therir liability ends at their destination, though a reasonable carrier would see the whole picture and try to help by, if necessary rerouting you..
Airlines are not the only companies which try to get away with blue murder. Had the ticket been purchased in the UK their action may have fallen under the unfair conditions rules for contracts.
You may be better cancelling the deal and getting your credit card company to refund you as the contract looks to have been broken as the action of bmi is unilateral.
Finally, check the EU rules regarding cancellation and delay as the affected part of the journey is on an intra European flight and contact IATA for their interpretation..
Paxing All Over The World
If I didn't know better, I'd say BMI were trying to do business by the rules they used in the last century ... 
Nothing to add, just mooching past in a quiet moment. Evenin' all.
Nothing to add, just mooching past in a quiet moment. Evenin' all.
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I have accepted an involuntary refund from bmi, as they cannot fulfil the contract and have made alternative arrangements.
When I get back to Malta, I shall institute a claim under the EU legislation for 600€, as they were unable to re-route me in a reasonable period of time.
The fact that they involuntarily cancelled the flight is pretty much the evidence I need to demonstrate that they were unable to deliver the contract.b
They are obliged to re-route in a 'reasonable period' and could only offer a 1315 departure against a 0715 departure.
Yes, you are right, so the test is the delay reasonable.
I doubt that a small claims administrator would consider that a reasonable period of time for a business traveller, especially as it would cause me to incur substantial overnight expenses at Munich.
It will be interesting to see how they try to wriggle out of it using the 'exceptional circumstances' rule.
Their 'subby' let them down, but they are still responsible as you rightly say.
When I get back to Malta, I shall institute a claim under the EU legislation for 600€, as they were unable to re-route me in a reasonable period of time.
The fact that they involuntarily cancelled the flight is pretty much the evidence I need to demonstrate that they were unable to deliver the contract.b
They are obliged to re-route in a 'reasonable period' and could only offer a 1315 departure against a 0715 departure.
However, as the Air Malta section of your journey is on a different ticket, as far as bmi are concerned therir liability ends at their destination, though a reasonable carrier would see the whole picture and try to help by, if necessary rerouting you..
I doubt that a small claims administrator would consider that a reasonable period of time for a business traveller, especially as it would cause me to incur substantial overnight expenses at Munich.
It will be interesting to see how they try to wriggle out of it using the 'exceptional circumstances' rule.
Their 'subby' let them down, but they are still responsible as you rightly say.
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From the EU paper in the link below
They can wriggle out of compensation with this one.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passen...g_2004_261.pdf
See page 8
Can a strike be considered as an extraordinary circumstance?
Yes, under certain conditions. Recital 14 of the Regulation states that strikes can constitute
extraordinary circumstances. A case-by-case assessment will remain crucial taking into
account all relevant jurisprudence and legislation in force in the country of the incident.
Yes, under certain conditions. Recital 14 of the Regulation states that strikes can constitute
extraordinary circumstances. A case-by-case assessment will remain crucial taking into
account all relevant jurisprudence and legislation in force in the country of the incident.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passen...g_2004_261.pdf
See page 8
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Quite so philbky.
Because they could not fulfil the journey from London to Munich in line with my needs, the airline cancelled the whole journey, despite my offer to get off at London and make my own way home, for a refund of the London to Munich leg.
What extraordinary circumstances applied between Riyadh and London?
I have a written audit trail showing the threat that my bags will be checked through to Munich, even if I get off at London.
I think that will look like pretty unreasonable behavoiur to a small claims court administrator.
Because they could not fulfil the journey from London to Munich in line with my needs, the airline cancelled the whole journey, despite my offer to get off at London and make my own way home, for a refund of the London to Munich leg.
What extraordinary circumstances applied between Riyadh and London?
I have a written audit trail showing the threat that my bags will be checked through to Munich, even if I get off at London.
I think that will look like pretty unreasonable behavoiur to a small claims court administrator.
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It was not bmi who cancelled the LHR/MUC it was LH as stated in your original post, because BD are the first carrier and you are ticketed onn 236 stock bmi are the first contact and therefore the bearers of bad news brought about by another airlines failings. I dont see why BD are getting so much stick on this one. They have offered to re-orute to alternative flight it is up to the customer to accept it or not. As for through checking your bags, provided you have the correct documentation to enter the UK and have sufficient time between flights there should be no reason to have to through check them to MUC.
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Just out of interest, which route/carriers have you re-booked with?
Good luck with the claim, keeps us posted on how they react. Hopefully they'll just pay up straight away without the need for small claims.
Have a good trip tomorrow.
Good luck with the claim, keeps us posted on how they react. Hopefully they'll just pay up straight away without the need for small claims.
Have a good trip tomorrow.
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If you fail to board on the last segment BMI should have no option but to offload your luggage. However I guess they might try and bill you for any delay unless of course you could make it a condition of travel?
Text below has been extracted from KLM T&Cs. I presume BMI is pretty the same.
"Passengers must arrive at the Carrier’s boarding gate sufficiently in advance of the flight in order to carry out all the formalities and these formalities should, in any event, be completed by the Passenger at the latest at the time specified by the Carrier. If a Passenger fails to meet the aforementioned boarding gate deadline the Passenger shall not be entitled to travel. The Carrier shall be entitled to cancel a Passenger’s reservation and seat reserved for such Passenger if the Passenger is not present at the boarding gate at the time specified without any liability toward the Passenger."
Regarding F3G issue, T&Cs are clear. Here KLM's again (and again I trust BMI are pretty the same):"Carrier will honour Coupons only in sequence from the Place of Departure as shown on the Ticket. The fare that the Passenger paid corresponds to the route stated on the Ticket and the usage of the complete routing shown on the Ticket forms an essential part of the Contract of Carriage. The Contract of Carriage excludes the cancellation of individual parts (Coupons) of the journey. Except as otherwise provided for in the Fare conditions, the Ticket will not be accepted and shall lose all value and validity if the Coupons are not used in the order in which they are issued (for example if the Passenger does not use the first Coupon and embarks at a point which is not the Place of Departure, or embarks at an airport mentioned in the Ticket without having used any of the previous Coupon(s))."
I have been there and it is unpleasant when on the other side of the desk
(or phone) you find someone who literally stick to the terms and much more obscene is when you deal with a senior manager whose mind is even narrower
This happened to me in 2001 when I experienced a similar problem with Lufthansa. No way to make the ticket agent in Munich to look at the global perspective.
Therefore a premium passenger (whose MM status was Senator) had no other choice than stay one more night in Munich, arriving one day later at home.
I have not been flying Lufthansa since then.
In these days airlines should look much more after their passengers, especially those premium and frequent travellers.
Maybe MOL is right: he does not look after them and his planes fly with an enviable load factor.
Keep us informed F3G and safe journey home.
Ciao ciao
Ulxima
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Frontcheck
Every time a passenger raises an issue on here, people fomr the industry are quick to point out the contract.
In this instance, the contract is with bmi, not LH and it is a through ticket.
bmi are obliged under EU regs to provide re-routing, which they refusal to do, despite a BA flight being available at a time that would have met my needs.
I have written evidence of this refusal (and also it is on tape at bmi) and also written evidence of BA availability.
Instead, bmi involuntarily canceled the whole segment, because I would not accept a 6 hour delay when travelling on business, so they could keep me on Lufthansa.
Philbky has already pointed out the relevant question in the EU regs and bmi doesn;t have aleg to stand on.
They deserve the stick, as they have ignored the EU directive and it is goign to sting.
I shall do this on a point of principle.
Every time a passenger raises an issue on here, people fomr the industry are quick to point out the contract.
In this instance, the contract is with bmi, not LH and it is a through ticket.
bmi are obliged under EU regs to provide re-routing, which they refusal to do, despite a BA flight being available at a time that would have met my needs.
I have written evidence of this refusal (and also it is on tape at bmi) and also written evidence of BA availability.
Instead, bmi involuntarily canceled the whole segment, because I would not accept a 6 hour delay when travelling on business, so they could keep me on Lufthansa.
Philbky has already pointed out the relevant question in the EU regs and bmi doesn;t have aleg to stand on.
They deserve the stick, as they have ignored the EU directive and it is goign to sting.
I shall do this on a point of principle.
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Hi Fargoo
I took a W class flight with BA (no C available, 1 F, but I nearly had a coronary when I saw the cost!) and have re-arranged my Air Malta to depart from LHR tonight for 127€.
The BA flight was very good this morning, as WT+ was nearly empty - the service was very good, as it often is with BA.
This added, as I often criticise BA for poor ground service, just to say again that the service in the air is seldom less than acceptable and often much better.
Thanks to all on BA262.
I took a W class flight with BA (no C available, 1 F, but I nearly had a coronary when I saw the cost!) and have re-arranged my Air Malta to depart from LHR tonight for 127€.
The BA flight was very good this morning, as WT+ was nearly empty - the service was very good, as it often is with BA.
This added, as I often criticise BA for poor ground service, just to say again that the service in the air is seldom less than acceptable and often much better.
Thanks to all on BA262.