20 Hurt In Severe Turbulence Over Alaska
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F3G...
Couldnt agree with you more. Polite but firm action is not something I shy away from. Alas however, there are far too many crew up there who for some reason become complacent and allow "one or two" to be ignored for the sake of not waking people up or to avoid arguements!
Although back to your "sociopathic" comments...I think I might be a wee bit. A couple of months ago during some very severe turbulence eastbound over the Atlantic one little trouble maker who had been nothing but "Precious" the whole flight up to now insisted on using this rather sensitive time to use the potty. He had to pass me strapped in my jumpseat (and lets face it, if the crew are strapped in you know its bad) and despite my requests that he return to his seat immediately he told me where to go and off he jumped into the loo! 5 mins later the plane seemed to go over The Big One at Blackpool and a loud crash and bang from the loo is heard (as well as a load of screams in the cabin...even I was feeling a tad green). Only when safe to do so I got up, knocked on the door, he opened it and what confronted me was a rather bloody face and an askewed nose on the guy. Well I didnt do the whole "I told you so" thing as I went ot get the med kit but inside I was LAUGHING MY A$$ OFF!!!
I doubt he will make that mistake again!
Couldnt agree with you more. Polite but firm action is not something I shy away from. Alas however, there are far too many crew up there who for some reason become complacent and allow "one or two" to be ignored for the sake of not waking people up or to avoid arguements!
Although back to your "sociopathic" comments...I think I might be a wee bit. A couple of months ago during some very severe turbulence eastbound over the Atlantic one little trouble maker who had been nothing but "Precious" the whole flight up to now insisted on using this rather sensitive time to use the potty. He had to pass me strapped in my jumpseat (and lets face it, if the crew are strapped in you know its bad) and despite my requests that he return to his seat immediately he told me where to go and off he jumped into the loo! 5 mins later the plane seemed to go over The Big One at Blackpool and a loud crash and bang from the loo is heard (as well as a load of screams in the cabin...even I was feeling a tad green). Only when safe to do so I got up, knocked on the door, he opened it and what confronted me was a rather bloody face and an askewed nose on the guy. Well I didnt do the whole "I told you so" thing as I went ot get the med kit but inside I was LAUGHING MY A$$ OFF!!!
I doubt he will make that mistake again!
what confronted me was a rather bloody face and an askewed nose on the guy.
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Paddy
To be a true sociopath, you have to give him a big lecture about ignoring the belt sign, then take his name to report to the CAA, then assist him by pouring neat Dettol over his wounds
I'm just glad I wasn't on that flight, it sounds like the ride from hell.
To be a true sociopath, you have to give him a big lecture about ignoring the belt sign, then take his name to report to the CAA, then assist him by pouring neat Dettol over his wounds
I'm just glad I wasn't on that flight, it sounds like the ride from hell.
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Paddy Can I join the sociopathic club as well? That's exactly how I would have reacted 
Just deserts IMHO.
Imagine if that had been another pax he had fallen on top of. It might even have been an infant. Some SLF are just plain selfish with respect to their responsibilities towards others safety
Barit1 Yes we do have a duty to prevent pax from harming each other tht's why when turbulence occurs the following will happen;
They are an accident waiting to happen and are not only selfish but also pretty stupid in these circumstances. Some people just won't be advised however much the CC try and most do.
Personally I think we should carry more pax restraint kits.......
Just deserts IMHO. Imagine if that had been another pax he had fallen on top of. It might even have been an infant. Some SLF are just plain selfish with respect to their responsibilities towards others safety
Barit1 Yes we do have a duty to prevent pax from harming each other tht's why when turbulence occurs the following will happen;
- The Captain will switch on the fasten seatbelt sign and make a PA to this effect. If he can predict it he will give some indication of how long these might be on for.
- Most airlines will follow this up with a PA from the CC. At my lot if there is a CC language speaker on board they will also do a PA.
- The CC will immediatly stop what they are doing and secure the cabin. This check is then passed to the Captain.
- He will advise us if it is safe for us to carry on with our duties, modify them or indeed for us to sit down as well. The airline has a duty of care to us in this situation as well.
They are an accident waiting to happen and are not only selfish but also pretty stupid in these circumstances. Some people just won't be advised however much the CC try and most do.
Personally I think we should carry more pax restraint kits.......
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I don't know how many other airlines you pax on, but I use quite a number.
And sadly, the process you described (which I have seen applied rigourously on British airlines) is not universal.
Normally the bell will chime, you might or might not get a PA and sometimes a belt check.
What is most concerning is the non reaction by CC to people doing exactly what you describe. On a southern med airline (mainland) I have even seen pax going to the loo and walking around whilst the aircraft was being flown caefully through the space between some huge cbs surrounding us, topping out well above us - but the CC didn't say a word
Me, I was strapped in tightly waiting for all hell to erupt (which thankfuly it did not.)
The trouble is that the airlines have made flying so safe that the majority of pax lose their sense of self preservation and assume everything will be alright, because it usually is.
Whilst not condoning this, I do understand the reasons why. Even taking 100 flights a year, the vast majority are total non events and some people won't take 100 flights in a lifetime.
I don't know how many other airlines you pax on, but I use quite a number.
And sadly, the process you described (which I have seen applied rigourously on British airlines) is not universal.
Normally the bell will chime, you might or might not get a PA and sometimes a belt check.
What is most concerning is the non reaction by CC to people doing exactly what you describe. On a southern med airline (mainland) I have even seen pax going to the loo and walking around whilst the aircraft was being flown caefully through the space between some huge cbs surrounding us, topping out well above us - but the CC didn't say a word
Me, I was strapped in tightly waiting for all hell to erupt (which thankfuly it did not.)The trouble is that the airlines have made flying so safe that the majority of pax lose their sense of self preservation and assume everything will be alright, because it usually is.
Whilst not condoning this, I do understand the reasons why. Even taking 100 flights a year, the vast majority are total non events and some people won't take 100 flights in a lifetime.
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As the founder member of F3G's sociopath club I welcome (as a britinireland) a paddyinuk and lowcost dolly.
The guy in the toilet got his just deserts. I have irritable bowel syndrome so know exactly what it feels like to "be in urgent need" but have managed in nearly 50 years of flying as SLF in the back and hundreds of hours in jump seats up front to avoid going to the loo when the seat belt signs are on.
One thing I've noticed in recent years is just how much UK and Irish airlines have tightened up with regard to seatbelt briefing and checking for belts being fastened when appropriate. For instance Aer Lingus to and from Boston last summer were even a little over the top. The slightest ripple and the sign went on and the crew checked every belt. If I tell you that BOS-SNN was 5 hrs dead you can see that we were riding the jetstream and the sign was on more than off.
Compared to 30 and more, or even 10 years ago, the airlines have become more conscious of something. This applies to every British and Irish airline I've flown with recently - bmi, British Airways, easyJet, FlyBe, Thomson, Virgin, Aer Lingus and Ryanair - all seem to have tightened up. Could that something be a combination of more litigious passengers and declining revenues leading to losses which they don't want compounding by the costs of litigation and the lottery of a justice system which might just see injured pax, however culpable, as victims rather than idiots?
As far as I'm concerned wearing of seatbelts on board should be mandatory whilst seated and moving around the cabin - something I always do on long haul flights - should be on the basis of a strictly enforced return to seat and belt up policy, as per the book - no excuses, no exceptions, period.
The guy in the toilet got his just deserts. I have irritable bowel syndrome so know exactly what it feels like to "be in urgent need" but have managed in nearly 50 years of flying as SLF in the back and hundreds of hours in jump seats up front to avoid going to the loo when the seat belt signs are on.
One thing I've noticed in recent years is just how much UK and Irish airlines have tightened up with regard to seatbelt briefing and checking for belts being fastened when appropriate. For instance Aer Lingus to and from Boston last summer were even a little over the top. The slightest ripple and the sign went on and the crew checked every belt. If I tell you that BOS-SNN was 5 hrs dead you can see that we were riding the jetstream and the sign was on more than off.
Compared to 30 and more, or even 10 years ago, the airlines have become more conscious of something. This applies to every British and Irish airline I've flown with recently - bmi, British Airways, easyJet, FlyBe, Thomson, Virgin, Aer Lingus and Ryanair - all seem to have tightened up. Could that something be a combination of more litigious passengers and declining revenues leading to losses which they don't want compounding by the costs of litigation and the lottery of a justice system which might just see injured pax, however culpable, as victims rather than idiots?
As far as I'm concerned wearing of seatbelts on board should be mandatory whilst seated and moving around the cabin - something I always do on long haul flights - should be on the basis of a strictly enforced return to seat and belt up policy, as per the book - no excuses, no exceptions, period.
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As far as I'm concerned wearing of seatbelts on board should be mandatory whilst seated
moving around the cabin - something I always do on long haul flights - should be on the basis of a strictly enforced return to seat and belt up policy, as per the book
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Certainly in recent years airlines have been issuing info on DVT in their seat back mags, some in their pre flight safety videos (on long haul flights), many on their web pages and I've heard cabin crew advise certain people to get up and walk around.
I always make sure I stretch my legs regularly on long hauls but, as far as I'm concerned, as soon as the seat belt sign goes on, I'm back to the seat.
I had a conversation some time ago with a pilot when DVT first became an issue and we talked about walking around . He said it could be a nightmare on an A380 if the bulk of the pax decided to stroll around at the same time. Apart from the congestion, there was the little problem of trim. This was at the time when the type was being touted as able to offer flying gyms, casinos and a host of other diversions and was expected to be in service in numbers in time for the Olympics in 2008. We started to speculate - as you do over a couple of pints..
We decided the only answer was to split the aircraft into sections and have Chinese style excercises led by specially trained crew - perhaps Virgin would take the lead with lycra clad section leaders.
I always make sure I stretch my legs regularly on long hauls but, as far as I'm concerned, as soon as the seat belt sign goes on, I'm back to the seat.
I had a conversation some time ago with a pilot when DVT first became an issue and we talked about walking around . He said it could be a nightmare on an A380 if the bulk of the pax decided to stroll around at the same time. Apart from the congestion, there was the little problem of trim. This was at the time when the type was being touted as able to offer flying gyms, casinos and a host of other diversions and was expected to be in service in numbers in time for the Olympics in 2008. We started to speculate - as you do over a couple of pints..
We decided the only answer was to split the aircraft into sections and have Chinese style excercises led by specially trained crew - perhaps Virgin would take the lead with lycra clad section leaders.
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Philbky Lol re the exercise mental picture you have just painted
I flew Air Jamaica from Kingston a number of years ago. I don't know if you have ever travelled from Kingston but on that flight there was a large number of very large carribean men dripping with gold jewellery etc squeezing themselves into the economy seat. My partner described them as looking like "gangsters" and got quite twitchy. Not helped by the arrival of the drugs squad at LHR either
. Pax profiling was certainly alive and well on that flight by many!
However about 1 hour before arrival the Cabin Crew started leading the inflight exercise programme. All of these so called macho "gangsters" were participating.....it was so funny to watch and would have been even funnier if they squeezed themselves into lycra!!
Anyway back on thread I agree UK airlines at least are more litigation aware and have "tightened up" even during the time I have worked in aviation. The muppet on Paddy's flight would not have a leg to stand on if he claimed for his injury because he had ignored both the initial instruction from the Captain, seatbelt sign and the repeated instruction from Paddy.
I do sort of know where F3G is coming from on the sympathy angle though..... up to a point. Several years ago I broke my foot due to clear air turbulence. The pain at the time and after surgery was awful. The impact on my life socially and financially was significant. I would not wish that on anyone however much of a plonker they had been on board.
However my injury could not have been avoided. Paddy's pax had a choice and got injured because he made the wrong choice even when informed of the risk. Sympathy therefore turns to empathy from me in that event I'm afraid. OMG what does that make me psycologically F3G?
In answer to your query F3G my experience as a pax on non UK airlines is very limited. I do not choose to fly on them if I can help it for exactly the reasons you describe. I'm not saying they are not safe because they are but I just feel more comfortable with our own way of enforcing safety rightly or wrongly.
Turbulence IMHO is one of the most dangerous aspects of airline travel as a lot of the time it cannot be predicted. Even when it is and is communicated to the SLF some will actively choose to ignore the warnings anyway endangering themselves and other pax/crew.
Personally I think ICAO should get on top of this and have universal procedures for all airlines to follow.
However I'm just humble CC. When somebody allows me to have an opinion they no doubt will tell me what it should be
I flew Air Jamaica from Kingston a number of years ago. I don't know if you have ever travelled from Kingston but on that flight there was a large number of very large carribean men dripping with gold jewellery etc squeezing themselves into the economy seat. My partner described them as looking like "gangsters" and got quite twitchy. Not helped by the arrival of the drugs squad at LHR either
. Pax profiling was certainly alive and well on that flight by many!However about 1 hour before arrival the Cabin Crew started leading the inflight exercise programme. All of these so called macho "gangsters" were participating.....it was so funny to watch and would have been even funnier if they squeezed themselves into lycra!!
Anyway back on thread I agree UK airlines at least are more litigation aware and have "tightened up" even during the time I have worked in aviation. The muppet on Paddy's flight would not have a leg to stand on if he claimed for his injury because he had ignored both the initial instruction from the Captain, seatbelt sign and the repeated instruction from Paddy.
I do sort of know where F3G is coming from on the sympathy angle though..... up to a point. Several years ago I broke my foot due to clear air turbulence. The pain at the time and after surgery was awful. The impact on my life socially and financially was significant. I would not wish that on anyone however much of a plonker they had been on board.
However my injury could not have been avoided. Paddy's pax had a choice and got injured because he made the wrong choice even when informed of the risk. Sympathy therefore turns to empathy from me in that event I'm afraid. OMG what does that make me psycologically F3G?
In answer to your query F3G my experience as a pax on non UK airlines is very limited. I do not choose to fly on them if I can help it for exactly the reasons you describe. I'm not saying they are not safe because they are but I just feel more comfortable with our own way of enforcing safety rightly or wrongly.
Turbulence IMHO is one of the most dangerous aspects of airline travel as a lot of the time it cannot be predicted. Even when it is and is communicated to the SLF some will actively choose to ignore the warnings anyway endangering themselves and other pax/crew.
Personally I think ICAO should get on top of this and have universal procedures for all airlines to follow.
However I'm just humble CC. When somebody allows me to have an opinion they no doubt will tell me what it should be
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Presuming this was a G- reg aircraft and given the seriousness of the injury, I presume we will see an AAIB (or EI- equivalent) report soon - given it was a couple of months ago?
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Paddy well said
Clareprop in your haste to be a "doubting Thomas" which you do frequently clearly have no idea on what goes on re incident reporting on board so let me enlighten you.....acknowledging the fact that different airlines vary but the outcome is roughly the same.
The pax concerned here also had the option to report this higher if he thourght it appropriate and it would be investigated. Would you report this to the statutory body if you had previously ignored the Captains and CC instructions plus the seatbelt sign??
My broken foot never reached the AAIB....as far as I'm aware. In terms of seriousness it is on a par with the incident on Paddy's flight.
Also I'm not aware of the AAIB circulating reports to PPRune or even "norf Essex" automatically. Feel free to access them if you feel the need.
I'm sure you will find that what needs to be there informative
Clareprop in your haste to be a "doubting Thomas" which you do frequently clearly have no idea on what goes on re incident reporting on board so let me enlighten you.....acknowledging the fact that different airlines vary but the outcome is roughly the same.
- Injury occurs on board in the cabin to either pax or crew. A CSR or that airlines equivalent will be completed by the CC.
- The incident will be reported to the Captain at the time. He will decide whether it also warrants an ASR and/or a MOR.
- The reports should then go to flight safety (that airlines equivalent) to be investigated.
The pax concerned here also had the option to report this higher if he thourght it appropriate and it would be investigated. Would you report this to the statutory body if you had previously ignored the Captains and CC instructions plus the seatbelt sign??
My broken foot never reached the AAIB....as far as I'm aware. In terms of seriousness it is on a par with the incident on Paddy's flight.
Also I'm not aware of the AAIB circulating reports to PPRune or even "norf Essex" automatically. Feel free to access them if you feel the need.
I'm sure you will find that what needs to be there informative
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OMG what does that make me psycologically F3G?
On the subject of universal procedures, that is a good idea.
I guess my cynical comment is will some of these airlines/regulatory bodies actually enforce? e.g. the UK is always bringing in new laws, e.g. don't talk on mobiles whilst driving, but where is the enforcement? I use the UK as an example in a general sense, as I know the aviation regulator does enforce.
Given the choice, there are some airlines I will not use, but the business traveller's dilemma is that one sometimes cannot, so I do understand why you stick to UK airlines.
I have to weigh the risk each time and this can be very difficult without inside info, as some carriers with a history of hull losses have top class products and service and this can give a misleading impression.
However, I still think you make a very good point.
