Have we, the pax, pushed it too far?
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Have we, the pax, pushed it too far?
A pilot's life: exhausting hours for meagre wages | World news | The Guardian
This is something I have been thinking about for a while now.
In years past, airline travel was restricted to those who could afford the additional cost that allowed one to arrive at their destination quickly. Example - Orient Line passenger liner to Australia = 6 weeks. A flight on a B707 = 22 hours - but you paid massively more for the convenience.
Now everyone thinks that it's their God-given right to go anywhere in the world at any time and for a cost that is, compared to any other kind of transportation, derisory.
I've banged on about this before but I will say again - do you really have to go and see cousin Flo and the kids in Brisbane when you can see and speak with them for free on the Internet?
The whole airline industry is a mess whether it's the crap that crews and passengers have to endure at airport security, to pax crammed into 32 (or less) inches of seat pitch, to the chaos that ensues whenever the weather or some other external incident intervenes.
I think it's time to stop, re-organise and start treating air travel for what it really is - a luxury form of travel for which one must pay a price.
Then, the people who sit up the pointy end can go back to being regarded (and remunerated) in the same way as (say) the Captain of the world's largest cruise liner 'Oasis of the Seas' (or any other passenger liner Captain) and the world, generally, can slow down and take things a little more easily.
This is something I have been thinking about for a while now.
In years past, airline travel was restricted to those who could afford the additional cost that allowed one to arrive at their destination quickly. Example - Orient Line passenger liner to Australia = 6 weeks. A flight on a B707 = 22 hours - but you paid massively more for the convenience.
Now everyone thinks that it's their God-given right to go anywhere in the world at any time and for a cost that is, compared to any other kind of transportation, derisory.
I've banged on about this before but I will say again - do you really have to go and see cousin Flo and the kids in Brisbane when you can see and speak with them for free on the Internet?
The whole airline industry is a mess whether it's the crap that crews and passengers have to endure at airport security, to pax crammed into 32 (or less) inches of seat pitch, to the chaos that ensues whenever the weather or some other external incident intervenes.
I think it's time to stop, re-organise and start treating air travel for what it really is - a luxury form of travel for which one must pay a price.
Then, the people who sit up the pointy end can go back to being regarded (and remunerated) in the same way as (say) the Captain of the world's largest cruise liner 'Oasis of the Seas' (or any other passenger liner Captain) and the world, generally, can slow down and take things a little more easily.
Last edited by Xeque; 11th Jan 2010 at 16:10.
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YES!
I'll vent a little.
The seating configurations on domestic US flights are ridiculous. I am 6 feet tall and 195 lbs. Given that most Americans these days are much larger than I am, the current seat dimensions are a recipe for frustration. We have all seen the huge passengers cramming into standard seats; it is a sight that causes nightmares!!!
I am a long haul freight dog, but I have to commercial deadhead quite a bit. It is the hardest part of my job.
I am afraid that bargain price driven customer choices and internet competition along with deregulation have created a very different market than many of us would have preferred.
B.T.W. I have been on hold with United customer dis-service for 22 minutes now while I made this post!
I'll vent a little.
The seating configurations on domestic US flights are ridiculous. I am 6 feet tall and 195 lbs. Given that most Americans these days are much larger than I am, the current seat dimensions are a recipe for frustration. We have all seen the huge passengers cramming into standard seats; it is a sight that causes nightmares!!!
I am a long haul freight dog, but I have to commercial deadhead quite a bit. It is the hardest part of my job.
I am afraid that bargain price driven customer choices and internet competition along with deregulation have created a very different market than many of us would have preferred.
B.T.W. I have been on hold with United customer dis-service for 22 minutes now while I made this post!
Well, I think that it has gone from one extreme to the other. I'd like the industry to find a suitable compromise. This could be assisted by international legislation introducing adequate minimum seat pitch regulations for passengers (which all airlines would have to comply with) and much more socially conscious rules and regulations for aircrew. Fares would have to rise, but I don't think it would prevent the majority of today's passengers from leisure flying, though some may have to reduce the frequency of their annual travels by a trip or two.
Unfortunately, the new generation of travellers don't seem to care how they're treated, and are ignorant of how their safety may be compromised by tired underpaid crews so long as they pay peanuts for their flight - well until it all goes pear shaped of course!
Unfortunately, the new generation of travellers don't seem to care how they're treated, and are ignorant of how their safety may be compromised by tired underpaid crews so long as they pay peanuts for their flight - well until it all goes pear shaped of course!
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Air travel, a luxury form of travel ?
It's fun to be reminded of how it was early in the XXth century...
And why not fetch the Concorde from the museums and put ithem back in the air ?
Note : EADS call its aircraft "Airbuses", not Airlimousines ...
It's fun to be reminded of how it was early in the XXth century...
And why not fetch the Concorde from the museums and put ithem back in the air ?
Note : EADS call its aircraft "Airbuses", not Airlimousines ...
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Im afraid that air travel being a form of luxury went a while back, it now a means of travel and always will be.
If you want the luxury that was once shown to airline passangers then take an airline that offers First class, you will then get what you want...Sky High fares and hospitality to suit.
Simples
If you want the luxury that was once shown to airline passangers then take an airline that offers First class, you will then get what you want...Sky High fares and hospitality to suit.
Simples
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You all miss the point
Kow-tow-ing to demand has forced the revenues to such a low that front line employees can no longer be paid a salary commensurate with their abilities and responsibilities.
Moderators: I'm surprised you moved this. This thread has everything to do with air crew, their training and abilities, their well-being and subsequent passenger safety. Yet you choose to move the thread out of the way and into an area where it was not intended to be and where it can be buried.
Does this mean you are in league with the very people who are creating this problem?
Moderators: I'm surprised you moved this. This thread has everything to do with air crew, their training and abilities, their well-being and subsequent passenger safety. Yet you choose to move the thread out of the way and into an area where it was not intended to be and where it can be buried.
Does this mean you are in league with the very people who are creating this problem?
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Quotes: "You could always walk?" "No. You could go by coach or train as an alternative to walking."
The above works fine between the UK and Europe. There are plenty of ferries across the English Channel and North Sea. There is train service through the Channel Tunnel. Cars, motorcycles and coaches can travel on both the ferries and the trains. Pedestrians and cyclists can walk or ride to the Channel port/station and take the ferry or train across and then continue walking or riding. Presumably the ferry would even accept a horse and carriage.
There is now a bridge across the Bosphorus so it works between Europe and Asia. Back in the 1960s British diplomats posted to Iran or neighbouring countries would sometimes drive there from the UK, taking a ferry across the Bosphorus.
There are ferries between Europe and Africa across the Strait of Gibraltar and between Italy and Tunisia. Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman used the latter during "Long Way Down", available on DVD. There used to be ferry services between Marseille and Algiers when Algeria was still part of France. A former colleague and his wife who lived in England in the 1960s used to drive to Morocco for their annual two weeks vacation. They would take a car ferry across the English Channel, drive down through France and Spain, take a car ferry between Algeciras and Tangier or Ceuta, and enjoy several days travelling around Morocco.
The problem comes when needing to cross oceans. Obviously walking and driving are not possible and there are no trans-oceanic train services.
Atmosphere and Xeque, presumably you both do understand that it is not practical to walk or travel by road or rail across oceans. Did you not consider those who have to travel across oceans? Since you both presumably did not make glib comments without knowing that genuine alternatives actually exist, perhaps you would be kind enough to post on here details of the practical and cost-effective (for ordinary working people, not just for millionaires!) boat services between Canada and the UK, Canada and South Africa and Canada and Australia. Those of us who have to make such journeys will appreciate your help.
Quote: "...do you really have to go and see cousin Flo and the kids in Brisbane when you can see and speak with them for free on the Internet?"
This is typical of the sort of comment from an unfortunately large and ignorant section of the population that thinks that the only people who travel are tourists and vacationers and that all travel is a discretionary pleasure! In any case why should family visits for those living abroad be discouraged? My wife and I should have the same right and convenience to visit our parents in the UK and South Africa as someone living in London has to visit his parents living in Basingstoke. We have both had to make overseas visits for serious illnesses and deaths and to consider making suitable care arrangements for elderly relatives. These were not vacations! We should be able to take the same personal possessions with us as the UK resident would take in his car from London to Basingstoke. Indeed we should be permitted to take more as we have to have enough possessions for a stay of several days to several weeks as against a few hours. Our family visits cost us considerably more in both money and time from our limited annual vacation (typically two weeks in Canada and the USA) than someone taking a one hour Saturday afternoon drive to visit his family. We should not have further restrictions and abuse heaped on top of that.
This is supposed to be an aviation forum. Think of all the aircrew who commute to work. Think of all the aircrew and support staff who work on rotation for contract operators with aircraft based in other countries. On each journey these crew need to carry the tools of their trade and supporting documents. There is no way any intelligent pilot is going to have his headsets, GPS, handheld aviation radio, cell phone, calculator, logbook, licences, etc, going as checked baggage and subject to being lost or stolen. This lot should stay with you in your carry on baggage or else refuse to travel. The employer will have to make other arrangements to get you to and from your base. Their time is valuable to them if not to airlines and governments! Check in times should be reduced to the previous limits of 30 minutes domestic and one hour international. It is up to the airlines and government agencies to have sufficient staff in place to process the pax in a reasonable time.
Pilots, when they travel to get to and from work, are not the only non-discretionary travellers. The requirement to travel internationally is faced by many others such as miners, geologists, flight attendants, aircraft maintenance engineers, diplomats, government workers, politicians, aid workers, engineers, architects, the military, the merchant navy, medical doctors and specialists, nurses, TV and press reporters, professional sports players, missionaries, multi-national company managers, travel agents, couriers, marketing reps, contractors, artists, actors, emigrants, retirees, etc, apart from tourists. We live in an ever more inter-dependant world, with ever increasing movement between countries, and with ever more persons in expatriate situations. Many people live permanently outside of their home country or travel internationally for employment and are far more likely to need emergency travel, particularly those in the Third World who might have to be medevaced to a country with decent medical facilities. All of these should be up in arms over the abuse being inflicted upon them.
We are fed up with the selfish, unthinking, "I'm alright, Jack!" attitude displayed towards non-vacation international travellers. The unthinking, uncaring and abusive people employed in air travel and associated government agencies should remember that we are paying their wages. Are there any effective passengers' rights organisations?
The above works fine between the UK and Europe. There are plenty of ferries across the English Channel and North Sea. There is train service through the Channel Tunnel. Cars, motorcycles and coaches can travel on both the ferries and the trains. Pedestrians and cyclists can walk or ride to the Channel port/station and take the ferry or train across and then continue walking or riding. Presumably the ferry would even accept a horse and carriage.
There is now a bridge across the Bosphorus so it works between Europe and Asia. Back in the 1960s British diplomats posted to Iran or neighbouring countries would sometimes drive there from the UK, taking a ferry across the Bosphorus.
There are ferries between Europe and Africa across the Strait of Gibraltar and between Italy and Tunisia. Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman used the latter during "Long Way Down", available on DVD. There used to be ferry services between Marseille and Algiers when Algeria was still part of France. A former colleague and his wife who lived in England in the 1960s used to drive to Morocco for their annual two weeks vacation. They would take a car ferry across the English Channel, drive down through France and Spain, take a car ferry between Algeciras and Tangier or Ceuta, and enjoy several days travelling around Morocco.
The problem comes when needing to cross oceans. Obviously walking and driving are not possible and there are no trans-oceanic train services.
Atmosphere and Xeque, presumably you both do understand that it is not practical to walk or travel by road or rail across oceans. Did you not consider those who have to travel across oceans? Since you both presumably did not make glib comments without knowing that genuine alternatives actually exist, perhaps you would be kind enough to post on here details of the practical and cost-effective (for ordinary working people, not just for millionaires!) boat services between Canada and the UK, Canada and South Africa and Canada and Australia. Those of us who have to make such journeys will appreciate your help.
Quote: "...do you really have to go and see cousin Flo and the kids in Brisbane when you can see and speak with them for free on the Internet?"
This is typical of the sort of comment from an unfortunately large and ignorant section of the population that thinks that the only people who travel are tourists and vacationers and that all travel is a discretionary pleasure! In any case why should family visits for those living abroad be discouraged? My wife and I should have the same right and convenience to visit our parents in the UK and South Africa as someone living in London has to visit his parents living in Basingstoke. We have both had to make overseas visits for serious illnesses and deaths and to consider making suitable care arrangements for elderly relatives. These were not vacations! We should be able to take the same personal possessions with us as the UK resident would take in his car from London to Basingstoke. Indeed we should be permitted to take more as we have to have enough possessions for a stay of several days to several weeks as against a few hours. Our family visits cost us considerably more in both money and time from our limited annual vacation (typically two weeks in Canada and the USA) than someone taking a one hour Saturday afternoon drive to visit his family. We should not have further restrictions and abuse heaped on top of that.
This is supposed to be an aviation forum. Think of all the aircrew who commute to work. Think of all the aircrew and support staff who work on rotation for contract operators with aircraft based in other countries. On each journey these crew need to carry the tools of their trade and supporting documents. There is no way any intelligent pilot is going to have his headsets, GPS, handheld aviation radio, cell phone, calculator, logbook, licences, etc, going as checked baggage and subject to being lost or stolen. This lot should stay with you in your carry on baggage or else refuse to travel. The employer will have to make other arrangements to get you to and from your base. Their time is valuable to them if not to airlines and governments! Check in times should be reduced to the previous limits of 30 minutes domestic and one hour international. It is up to the airlines and government agencies to have sufficient staff in place to process the pax in a reasonable time.
Pilots, when they travel to get to and from work, are not the only non-discretionary travellers. The requirement to travel internationally is faced by many others such as miners, geologists, flight attendants, aircraft maintenance engineers, diplomats, government workers, politicians, aid workers, engineers, architects, the military, the merchant navy, medical doctors and specialists, nurses, TV and press reporters, professional sports players, missionaries, multi-national company managers, travel agents, couriers, marketing reps, contractors, artists, actors, emigrants, retirees, etc, apart from tourists. We live in an ever more inter-dependant world, with ever increasing movement between countries, and with ever more persons in expatriate situations. Many people live permanently outside of their home country or travel internationally for employment and are far more likely to need emergency travel, particularly those in the Third World who might have to be medevaced to a country with decent medical facilities. All of these should be up in arms over the abuse being inflicted upon them.
We are fed up with the selfish, unthinking, "I'm alright, Jack!" attitude displayed towards non-vacation international travellers. The unthinking, uncaring and abusive people employed in air travel and associated government agencies should remember that we are paying their wages. Are there any effective passengers' rights organisations?
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Carrier
I appreciate your response.
However, the meat of this thread is the conditions under which many Captains and First Officers have to work in today's - cut-throat - low cost airline environment.
No-one has said - certainly not me - that airline travel should be discontinued. Only that it should be properly priced and therefore able to pay it's people what they are worth and treat them accordingly.
Yes. I'm one of them.
However, the meat of this thread is the conditions under which many Captains and First Officers have to work in today's - cut-throat - low cost airline environment.
No-one has said - certainly not me - that airline travel should be discontinued. Only that it should be properly priced and therefore able to pay it's people what they are worth and treat them accordingly.
Many people live permanently outside of their home country or travel internationally for employment and are far more likely to need emergency travel, particularly those in the Third World who might have to be medevaced to a country with decent medical facilities.
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This is typical of the sort of comment from an unfortunately large and ignorant section of the population that thinks that the only people who travel are tourists and vacationers and that all travel is a discretionary pleasure! In any case why should family visits for those living abroad be discouraged?
And your response is typical of the, "It's my right and everyone else can go to hell in a handcart", attitude that is so prevalent in today's society.
My wife and I should have the same right and convenience to visit our parents in the UK and South Africa as someone living in London has to visit his parents living in Basingstoke. We have both had to make overseas visits for serious illnesses and deaths and to consider making suitable care arrangements for elderly relatives. These were not vacations! We should be able to take the same personal possessions with us as the UK resident would take in his car from London to Basingstoke. Indeed we should be permitted to take more as we have to have enough possessions for a stay of several days to several weeks as against a few hours. Our family visits cost us considerably more in both money and time from our limited annual vacation (typically two weeks in Canada and the USA) than someone taking a one hour Saturday afternoon drive to visit his family. We should not have further restrictions and abuse heaped on top of that.
Unfortunately, the world has got used to the low prices and perspectives have changed. What was once a bargain, is now an expectation.
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Originally Posted by Carrier
The unthinking, uncaring and abusive people employed in air travel and associated government agencies should remember that we are paying their wages. Are there any effective passengers' rights organisations?
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Travel to destinations without ferries, trains and buses
I am open to sensible suggestions as to how I can get myself from London to Lanzarote and back, with 30kgs of luggage, for £85 return, other than by flying and even ignoring the time involved, if necessary. Consideration of the carbon footprint of alternative methods might be relevant too!
Last edited by A2QFI; 11th Jan 2010 at 17:40.
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Oh get a grip, TT1! The term SLF has been explained more times than I can count. If you don't like it, don't look at it! By the way, please let me know the next time you are due to travel and I shall ensure that all staff bow as you pass, thanking you profusely for paying their wages.
Has it possibly occured to you that the people that frequent a site, such as this one, do so because they actually do give a damn about the industry and all aspects of it. And that those of us working in aviation, visit this particular part of the forum because we want to see what our passengers are saying? What works, what doesn't? What we could do better? If we can help? No. Didn't think so!
It might surprise you to know that on the back of some of the things I have read on these very threads and via PM's I have exchanged with various people, I have changed the way I do certain things and made suggestions to the company on other things. But that can't be right, can it? After all, I'm just one of the...
Has it possibly occured to you that the people that frequent a site, such as this one, do so because they actually do give a damn about the industry and all aspects of it. And that those of us working in aviation, visit this particular part of the forum because we want to see what our passengers are saying? What works, what doesn't? What we could do better? If we can help? No. Didn't think so!
It might surprise you to know that on the back of some of the things I have read on these very threads and via PM's I have exchanged with various people, I have changed the way I do certain things and made suggestions to the company on other things. But that can't be right, can it? After all, I'm just one of the...
Originally Posted by Carrier
unthinking, uncaring and abusive people employed in air travel!
Last edited by jetset lady; 11th Jan 2010 at 17:54.
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JetSet Lady, I apologise for touching a raw nerve. I'm delighted that what we say is read and noted; that is indeed what forums like this should be about. Also, please not that I did not cite the "unthinking, uncaring and abusive people employed in air travel" for any reason other than to keep the quote in context. They were not my words.
May we return the broader topic again?
May we return the broader topic again?
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Sorry, TT1. I've edited my post accordingly. I should have made that clear, originally. 
Thanks, by the way. We do try and we do pay attention most of the time! Now, as you say, onwards and upwards....
Thanks, by the way. We do try and we do pay attention most of the time! Now, as you say, onwards and upwards....