Have we, the pax, pushed it too far?
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Why should you have the same rights as someone visiting relatives within the same country as them? Regardless of the reasons, I assume no one forced you to live in a different country from both sets of parents. You chose it, presumably, to give yourself and your family a better life. Fair enough. But don't then expect the industry and everyone in it, to pay for your choice. Have you seen the state of things at the moment?
Well said JSL!
Why should you have the same rights as someone visiting relatives within the same country as them? Regardless of the reasons, I assume no one forced you to live in a different country from both sets of parents. You chose it, presumably, to give yourself and your family a better life. Fair enough. But don't then expect the industry and everyone in it, to pay for your choice. Have you seen the state of things at the moment?
Well said JSL!
Paxing All Over The World
Here I come my regular dose of: The Voice of Doom ...
Is air travel undervalued and underpaid? Yes, of course.
Are flight crew undervalued and underpaid? Yes, of course.
Is anything going to change? No, of course not.
Is there anything that can be done? No.
Why Not?
Because the various trade bodies know that to try and force prices and salaries up is impossible. Govts know that they must not try to legislate to restrict trade, or feel the wrath of the lobbyists and their paymasters.
Has this happened before?
Ask the companies that ran the regular steamship services around the world until the arrival of the 747 and the 40 foot cargo container. Ask their historians about the glamour of being an officer on those ships and how much they were paid.
Ask the men who drove steam trains just how much of an art it was and how their job and working conditions changed when diesel and electric locomotion came in. Not to mention that signalmen then got to be more important and demand more money than the bloke at the front of the train who "just waggled the leavers".
Right to Roam?
Debatable but irrelevant. Enough people will want to travel to ensure that demand continues and enough people will think they can make money out of them to try and provide the service.
Is it all going to end horribly?
Oh yes!
When?
Some time from now. It will take a lot of people dying and those deaths being linked directly to poor selection/training, over promotion, tiredness and the rest. Since these will probably occur around the globe at different times/carriers/equipment, it will be a very long time before collective action is taken. If ever.
Is air travel undervalued and underpaid? Yes, of course.
Are flight crew undervalued and underpaid? Yes, of course.
Is anything going to change? No, of course not.
Is there anything that can be done? No.
Why Not?
Because the various trade bodies know that to try and force prices and salaries up is impossible. Govts know that they must not try to legislate to restrict trade, or feel the wrath of the lobbyists and their paymasters.
Has this happened before?
Ask the companies that ran the regular steamship services around the world until the arrival of the 747 and the 40 foot cargo container. Ask their historians about the glamour of being an officer on those ships and how much they were paid.
Ask the men who drove steam trains just how much of an art it was and how their job and working conditions changed when diesel and electric locomotion came in. Not to mention that signalmen then got to be more important and demand more money than the bloke at the front of the train who "just waggled the leavers".
Right to Roam?
Debatable but irrelevant. Enough people will want to travel to ensure that demand continues and enough people will think they can make money out of them to try and provide the service.
Is it all going to end horribly?
Oh yes!
When?
Some time from now. It will take a lot of people dying and those deaths being linked directly to poor selection/training, over promotion, tiredness and the rest. Since these will probably occur around the globe at different times/carriers/equipment, it will be a very long time before collective action is taken. If ever.
Last edited by PAXboy; 11th Jan 2010 at 23:46. Reason: Grammar
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Remember, the pilots and crew have made the choice for their career path, and at the top end of most airlines have a fairly good salary and conditions. The entire salary structure simply works on supply and demand; with regards to the fatigue issue, thats really a legislative issue.
As long as the companies are meeting the strict safety policies and operating legally, cost cutting elsewhere will happen as it does in any industry.
Also, with your comparison to a cruise ship Captain (namely RCCL), the worlds aren't so different, salaries are not fantastic, respect is not what it used to be and it tends to also be a life of to the minute time schedules, fuel budgets, fuel bonuses, passenger rating and performance related bonuses.
As long as the companies are meeting the strict safety policies and operating legally, cost cutting elsewhere will happen as it does in any industry.
Also, with your comparison to a cruise ship Captain (namely RCCL), the worlds aren't so different, salaries are not fantastic, respect is not what it used to be and it tends to also be a life of to the minute time schedules, fuel budgets, fuel bonuses, passenger rating and performance related bonuses.
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I hesitate to follow PAXboy and his input, but I'll present a similar line of though [if less cogent].
Like nuclear weapons, aviation cannot be un-invented. Globally there must be millions of people involved in the carriage of passengers and freight from A to B, including aircraft manufacturers, spare parts suppliers, ground staff - the list is almost endless. It includes aircrew, of course! And all this massive industry is geared to enable the World [as it now is] to do its business. The cost to society and individual employees in trying to undo it is too immense to contemplate.
Are aircrew over-worked and under-paid? That is an over-simplified question.
Some possibly are, some possibly aren't. It depends on who you're working for, under what sort of contract, in what country, in what role, on what aircraft - but I am certainly disturbed to see the under-regulation implied in the initial post. That is one of those rare occasions where I would say "The Government should do something".
As to our rights as individuals to fly - if there is an affordable product (affordability being an enormous variable, so let's not go there) then people will take advantage of the opportunity. If it is NOT affordable, then passenger numbers will fall, jobs will be lost across the global aviation industry and beyond, goods will not be able to move to their markets - and more jobs and societies will pay the penalties.
Like nuclear weapons, aviation cannot be un-invented. Globally there must be millions of people involved in the carriage of passengers and freight from A to B, including aircraft manufacturers, spare parts suppliers, ground staff - the list is almost endless. It includes aircrew, of course! And all this massive industry is geared to enable the World [as it now is] to do its business. The cost to society and individual employees in trying to undo it is too immense to contemplate.
Are aircrew over-worked and under-paid? That is an over-simplified question.
Some possibly are, some possibly aren't. It depends on who you're working for, under what sort of contract, in what country, in what role, on what aircraft - but I am certainly disturbed to see the under-regulation implied in the initial post. That is one of those rare occasions where I would say "The Government should do something".
As to our rights as individuals to fly - if there is an affordable product (affordability being an enormous variable, so let's not go there) then people will take advantage of the opportunity. If it is NOT affordable, then passenger numbers will fall, jobs will be lost across the global aviation industry and beyond, goods will not be able to move to their markets - and more jobs and societies will pay the penalties.
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Why do we fly? the majority because we want to be somewhere else, the minority because we have to be somewhere else.
Customer surveys tell all time and time again they want more space, greater luxury and will pay for it. Then we go and fly Ryanair cos its cheap (and moan).
The glory days of air-travel died a long time ago - Concorde sums it up. I doubt we are too far off when some wealthy destination, a Dubai or a Vegas actually pays the customer to fly there.
Customer surveys tell all time and time again they want more space, greater luxury and will pay for it. Then we go and fly Ryanair cos its cheap (and moan).
The glory days of air-travel died a long time ago - Concorde sums it up. I doubt we are too far off when some wealthy destination, a Dubai or a Vegas actually pays the customer to fly there.
