Xmas Day DTW Bomber - Security Woes Thread
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horrible way to travel, flying
flew last week as a passenger for a change.What a horrible way to travel. You are strip searched, shoes off, touched in places I do not want to be touched, suitecase opened because of my 'suspicous' shaving articles and rudly treated by the security people.
Watched an elderly lady undergoe the same humiliating proces, she could hardly walk without a stick but was forced to give it to the security personell for a thorough check...
The fact of the matter is this and nobody , especially politicians want to say this publicly but 99 % of the people that are being checked are not, will never be a potential terrorist.
So why do we undergo this ? Because nobody wants to say that it is to stop a select group of people with a certain background, religion and ideas, who originate from or have travelled via or from certain countries and that will be so easy to check via travel history data base.
To even mention this you will run the risk of being called a racist. But that is not the case.
As Pilots we are profiled all the time. Aviators who fancy visible piercings, ear rings and tatoos or long hair will not be allowed to start for any decent company, no matter how good they can fly. Our psychological profile is checked and the secret service is consulted about our past.Is this racism? No it is selection. And exactly that should be done. Put the burden on a few and not on the innocent majority.
And ofcourse there will be some that will be unneccesary accused/checked, but that is a smaller sacrifice then 99% of the others.
Because the way it is going now it will only get worse. Our job is eroded by increasing worse terms and conditions, we are humiliated on a daily basis and soon will be x-rayed on a daily bases as well with the bodyscan(sounds very healthy) and our passengers will stop flying.
I feel embarrassed that my passengers nowadays say that they hate flying because of all the things done to them for a simple trip from a to b.
and it will kill the industry.
Watched an elderly lady undergoe the same humiliating proces, she could hardly walk without a stick but was forced to give it to the security personell for a thorough check...
The fact of the matter is this and nobody , especially politicians want to say this publicly but 99 % of the people that are being checked are not, will never be a potential terrorist.
So why do we undergo this ? Because nobody wants to say that it is to stop a select group of people with a certain background, religion and ideas, who originate from or have travelled via or from certain countries and that will be so easy to check via travel history data base.
To even mention this you will run the risk of being called a racist. But that is not the case.
As Pilots we are profiled all the time. Aviators who fancy visible piercings, ear rings and tatoos or long hair will not be allowed to start for any decent company, no matter how good they can fly. Our psychological profile is checked and the secret service is consulted about our past.Is this racism? No it is selection. And exactly that should be done. Put the burden on a few and not on the innocent majority.
And ofcourse there will be some that will be unneccesary accused/checked, but that is a smaller sacrifice then 99% of the others.
Because the way it is going now it will only get worse. Our job is eroded by increasing worse terms and conditions, we are humiliated on a daily basis and soon will be x-rayed on a daily bases as well with the bodyscan(sounds very healthy) and our passengers will stop flying.
I feel embarrassed that my passengers nowadays say that they hate flying because of all the things done to them for a simple trip from a to b.
and it will kill the industry.
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Aviators who fancy visible piercings, ear rings and tatoos or long hair will not be allowed to start for any decent company, no matter how good they can fly. Our psychological profile is checked and the secret service is consulted about our past.
More bang for your buck
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Xmas Day DTW Bomber - Security Woes Thread
A Northwest Airlines flight on its way from Detroit to Orlando, Florida was diverted due to a "suspicious item" that turned out to be a Christmas ornament, US media reported Friday.
"A suspicious item was found and out of an abundance of caution, the pilot decided to divert to Nashville, (Tennessee)," Delta Air Lines spokesman Carlos Santos told the Orlando Sentinel newspaper.
"It turned out to be a Christmas ornament."
"A suspicious item was found and out of an abundance of caution, the pilot decided to divert to Nashville, (Tennessee)," Delta Air Lines spokesman Carlos Santos told the Orlando Sentinel newspaper.
"It turned out to be a Christmas ornament."
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This is not a real live data at all. It is just a DVD or a tape of that route that is started when the plane takes off
Please try not to post assumption as fact, particularly when it is uninformed - it simply confuses the argument for others
Paxing All Over The World
What I have not yet seen reported about the pax who got through the security and non-profiling: At AMS, did he simply stay on the a/c - or was he made to disembark for the transit? That makes the difference between European and African security scanning. At a guess, he stayed on and the research by the folks behind him knew that.
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Handcuffs are permitted carry ons.?
Or will the airline provide these at TOD.
Can I supply my own P bottle, or will they provide these at TOD too.
All window shades will be closed, and all lights on HI to confuse those who can see the ground.
No clapping on touch down, just silent prayers.
Except in Switzerland where the call to prayer is banned too.
No french muslem females allowed, unless wearing full body armour.
Almost forgot. These apply to crew only.
More guns on board, carried by professional guards in full batledress.
Perhaps recruited from a certain private american contractor, after all they never shoot the good guys do they.
glf
Can I supply my own P bottle, or will they provide these at TOD too.
All window shades will be closed, and all lights on HI to confuse those who can see the ground.
No clapping on touch down, just silent prayers.
Except in Switzerland where the call to prayer is banned too.
No french muslem females allowed, unless wearing full body armour.
Almost forgot. These apply to crew only.
More guns on board, carried by professional guards in full batledress.
Perhaps recruited from a certain private american contractor, after all they never shoot the good guys do they.
glf
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Trying to think of any reason to actually go to USA
Slowly killing their tourist business.
Slowly killing any transit passenger business.
Gave up a timeshare in FL, as it was becoming impossible to enjoy the experience.
Rant over.
glf
Slowly killing any transit passenger business.
Gave up a timeshare in FL, as it was becoming impossible to enjoy the experience.
Rant over.
glf
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Aviation jobs at risk??
Our travel agent opened this morning to dozens of requests for details on 'no fly' holidays. Our group of 26 greybeards are taking our grey pounds to Switzerland by train this spring rather than our planned LA trip, mainly due to pressure from the wives re body scans/searches etc, and the unacceptable ritual humiliation & abuse suffered now as pax. Aviation jobs must be at risk. Glad I'm well retired. Happy new year to all.
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Hi PAXboy - compliments of the season!
Two distinct flights were involved - a KLM 777 from LOS to AMS and then a NW/DL 330 from AMS to DTW. It appears he was subject to normal security procedures for US-bound flights (including passport/visa check, a hand baggage scan and a metal detector arch) at the gate in Schiphol.
Two distinct flights were involved - a KLM 777 from LOS to AMS and then a NW/DL 330 from AMS to DTW. It appears he was subject to normal security procedures for US-bound flights (including passport/visa check, a hand baggage scan and a metal detector arch) at the gate in Schiphol.
Paxing All Over The World
Hi PV, haven't seen you in the cabin for a while? Complimenti della stagione (language picked at random from Babelfish!) 
Thanks for that. MOST interesting. No wonder the AMS-ers are down in the mouth about it and making offerings sacrifices of new scanners to the mighty USA.
Thanks for that. MOST interesting. No wonder the AMS-ers are down in the mouth about it and making offerings sacrifices of new scanners to the mighty USA.
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It is far from certain that full body scanners would have made much difference in this case anyway.
Are planned airport scanners just a scam? - Home News, UK - The Independent
It's quite a long article to cut and paste here, but the sections of perticular interest say-
The same article goes on to discuss x-ray scanners (as opposed to millimetre wave technology), though Mr Wallace adds that these would also have been unlikely to have detected the Christmas Day bomb (aside from the health debate). Despite this, it still seems that the authorities are knee jerk reacting in an effort to be seen to be doing something-
Mr Wallace's comments must be taken in context- he is an opposition politician attacking the government- but they still raise interesting points. In any case this recent plot involved around just 3oz of explosives which could easily be hidden within the body and assembled once on the plane. Full body scanners may make Joe Public feel better and give useless beaurocrats another means by which to justify their pointless existence but will they actually make a difference? Its a bit late to go back in time and attempt to change foreign policy so the only soloution I can think of that will make a difference is to bite the bullet and begin passenger profiling.
Are planned airport scanners just a scam? - Home News, UK - The Independent
It's quite a long article to cut and paste here, but the sections of perticular interest say-
Since the attack was foiled, body-scanners, using "millimetre-wave" technology and revealing a naked image of a passenger, have been touted as a solution to the problem of detecting explosive devices that are not picked up by traditional metal detectors – such as those containing liquids, chemicals or plastic explosive.
But Ben Wallace, the Conservative MP, who was formerly involved in a project by a leading British defence research firm to develop the scanners for airport use, said trials had shown that such low-density materials went undetected.
Tests by scientists in the team at Qinetiq, which Mr Wallace advised before he became an MP in 2005, showed the millimetre-wave scanners picked up shrapnel and heavy wax and metal, but plastic, chemicals and liquids were missed.
But Ben Wallace, the Conservative MP, who was formerly involved in a project by a leading British defence research firm to develop the scanners for airport use, said trials had shown that such low-density materials went undetected.
Tests by scientists in the team at Qinetiq, which Mr Wallace advised before he became an MP in 2005, showed the millimetre-wave scanners picked up shrapnel and heavy wax and metal, but plastic, chemicals and liquids were missed.
Last week the US Transportation Security Administration ordered $165m-worth of scanners, using both millimetre and X-ray technology, from L-3 Communications.
Paxing All Over The World
It is always the easy choice to buy equipment. Almost every govt gives in to this on many different problems. Changing human behaviour (the govt's own) is almost impossible and requires people to admit they were wrong. So they buy equipment. Whether it's guns or scanners, they buy hardware.
During my 25+ years in telecommunications, I saw many companies/departments buying extra equipment - rather than attempting to change the behaviour of their staff. Changing staff behaviour would have saved more money but was more difficult and required true leadership.
Even if they introduce some profiling, they will not stop buying equipment.
During my 25+ years in telecommunications, I saw many companies/departments buying extra equipment - rather than attempting to change the behaviour of their staff. Changing staff behaviour would have saved more money but was more difficult and required true leadership.
Even if they introduce some profiling, they will not stop buying equipment.
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Full body scanners may make Joe Public feel better and give useless beaurocrats another means by which to justify their pointless existence but will they actually make a difference?
I guess that body scanners effectively will limit the size of what you can get on board; quality of scan depends on well-trained and skilled operators.
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Full body scanners
Body scanners and full pat down searches are being called humiliating and in some cases not necessary. Also with airports and security people being on high alert (read on nerves edge) chances of passenger frustration will grow. However what needs to be seen is that all this is an attempt to pre attempt the next issue that some moron will make and make that persons job that much harder to get thru. Till then maybe fewer people with a twisted religious inclination will fly as their modesty might be offended by this full body scan.
I am also happy that the US is now calling a spade a spade and not trying to be politically correct about profiling etc. One bad apple can spoil a lot, but after a while it should not be the rest of the worlds problem to be gentle with the origin of all apples, but rather the farmers.
If the Muslim world is upset about the profiling (special interest countries) and other issues then they need to introspect and fix the problem themselves (read better quality education from teachers and not mullahs). 10 years of B/S is enough that the balance 66% of the world population can bear. I think pretty much all are tired of hearing the stupid Jihadi doctrine and oppressed religious thought process. You want to see how opressed your brothers are go to Dubai.......find your 72 virgins and stick there till you do (probably will not find even one). For the rest of your moderate brethern let them live with dignity and don't make them suffer.
In the meanwhile as an SLF look forward to that day when flying will return to a beautiful experience that it was.
Absolutly frustrated with this as it needs to stop
I am also happy that the US is now calling a spade a spade and not trying to be politically correct about profiling etc. One bad apple can spoil a lot, but after a while it should not be the rest of the worlds problem to be gentle with the origin of all apples, but rather the farmers.
If the Muslim world is upset about the profiling (special interest countries) and other issues then they need to introspect and fix the problem themselves (read better quality education from teachers and not mullahs). 10 years of B/S is enough that the balance 66% of the world population can bear. I think pretty much all are tired of hearing the stupid Jihadi doctrine and oppressed religious thought process. You want to see how opressed your brothers are go to Dubai.......find your 72 virgins and stick there till you do (probably will not find even one). For the rest of your moderate brethern let them live with dignity and don't make them suffer.
In the meanwhile as an SLF look forward to that day when flying will return to a beautiful experience that it was.
Absolutly frustrated with this as it needs to stop
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Let's focus on the real issues ...
This event was not a failure of the security systems in place at Lagos or Amsterdam. This event is a failure of US intelligence. This guy was given a multiple entry visa by US officials and despite warnings from the UK and the idiot's own father the visa was not cancelled.
There is no need to introduce new and expensive scanners - particularly as they won't work. When I flew YLW-SEA a week after this happened I was subjected to a 'pat-down', except the nice gentleman doing it avoided my crotch area - why bother?
The knee-jerk reactions only demonstrate that the terrorists have won, yet again.
There is no need to introduce new and expensive scanners - particularly as they won't work. When I flew YLW-SEA a week after this happened I was subjected to a 'pat-down', except the nice gentleman doing it avoided my crotch area - why bother?
The knee-jerk reactions only demonstrate that the terrorists have won, yet again.
My recent experience in the past week - no en route map on the UK-USA sector yet full map from USA to UK.
One hour out of Orlando everything cleared (pax have to do this not cabin crew) includes pillows and blankets all to go into overhead lockers - so even if you are asleep you will be woken. If you are cold you freeze for the final hour. No reading material allowed - one chap close to me tried and got barked at by BA hostess, cabin crew member - member of stassi - you choose the best description! No eating or drinking and escort to loo if you need to go but you are discouraged from going. Its quite frankly a truely awful final 60 minutes (not that the previous 7 hours or so were much better with BA).
Internal USA flight two days ago with AA from Orlando to O'Hare. No security issues on board. Flight from O'Hare to Heathrow with BA - a full mapping system provided, no other constraints on the pax at all so obviously flying from the USA is not a security risk. Its all a nonsense but from a country that ID's everyone at orlando Airport when you want a beer what can one expect? I sometimes wonder about our American cousins.....
One hour out of Orlando everything cleared (pax have to do this not cabin crew) includes pillows and blankets all to go into overhead lockers - so even if you are asleep you will be woken. If you are cold you freeze for the final hour. No reading material allowed - one chap close to me tried and got barked at by BA hostess, cabin crew member - member of stassi - you choose the best description! No eating or drinking and escort to loo if you need to go but you are discouraged from going. Its quite frankly a truely awful final 60 minutes (not that the previous 7 hours or so were much better with BA).
Internal USA flight two days ago with AA from Orlando to O'Hare. No security issues on board. Flight from O'Hare to Heathrow with BA - a full mapping system provided, no other constraints on the pax at all so obviously flying from the USA is not a security risk. Its all a nonsense but from a country that ID's everyone at orlando Airport when you want a beer what can one expect? I sometimes wonder about our American cousins.....
