What do you need to like BA's product/service?

[Final 3 Greens]

On another thread, Jarvy has said "F3G will always be anti BA."

Some of the longer tenure peeps may remember I used to be a strong supporter of BA, up to about 2005-06, then we had GG, threatened strikes, service level cuts etc.

I'm not inherently anti BA, just don't think the company provides very good VFM at the moment.

So it got me thinking, what would it take for some of us to like BA again?

My initial thoughts are

• Less threatened industrial action- it feels like a crisis occurs every year
• A consistent experience at T5, with a reasonably consistent security transit time (I see some evidence of application of effort to achieve this]
• More nous shown towards premium pax - e.g. please research the customer base before changing the Club Europe seat configuration
• Restore the cut services in the Club product
• Improve the ground services (i.e. empower the people, some are very good, but cannot make decisions]

That would persuade me to use BA for far more flights, what would bring others back?

[Diver_Dave]

Indeed

F3G

I've had 3 mails this past year asking why I haven't flown with them and
here's a wine / insurance / credit card [1] offer I qualify for.

The simple fact is...

I used them on three routes MAN- SOU / FRA and MLA.

None of which exist anymore, along with the fact they went back on their
word and letter to match Air Malta's baggage allowance on the MLA run I've
no real reason to use them.

Long haul tends now to be LH via FRA as BA are more expensive and I'd rather fight my way round Frankfurt where security are at least polite and
organised than LHR / LGW where I've had nothing but delays, jobs worth and
trouble in the past.

It's been said here before BA isn't BA, it's London Airways. Before the
detractors start getting into it, if the routes weren't profitable / load factors
not high enough why do LH / AF et al fly the regional UK airports?


That said flight wise I've never had a bad flight with BA and when GB had the
MLA run from Manchester actually really enjoyable flights. All in all in the air no problems... It's just everything else...

Regards

DaveA

[1] Delete as appropriate

[dubh12000]

I want a better WT+ seat.....as I seem to be there most of the time now there is a recession on.

I do not want to be bused in from a remote after a red eye across the Atlantic

AVOD upgrades across the 777 fleet (I know they can't on some).

[Capetonian]

A change of attitude and morale from the top downwards is required. I cannot see this happening any more than the moral values of UK society can be restored in the short term. To me this is more important, and more difficult, than restoring the tangibles they have removed from the product offering.

After being loyal and frequent passengers over a long period (I'm talking maybe 20 short haul and 6 long haul per annum, which may not be a lot for some people but I feel it's enough to merit better treatment), we stopped flying BA after being treated like dirt by (contracted) check in staff, and when my written complaint to BA management resulted in untrue and libellous comments being made about me. I subsequently became the victim of a childish vendetta by the local staff.

Before that, on many flights, I found the attitude of many of their cabin staff quite unacceptable, brusque and unsympathetic. The worst case was when a young boy sitting near me, flying to London for an operation, turned blue from lack of oxygen and when the mother asked for help on arrival was told : "It had better be necessary, it costs us a lot of money."

We flew on scruffy aircraft with dirty and torn seats, we found call centre staff ill-informed and ill-mannered, and ground staff often even worse.

I doubt whether BA can do anything to tempt me back.

[strake]

I want it like it used to be...well, like I remember it used to be anyway.

The bed wasn't flat but the food, the wine, the service....ah, halcyon days.

YouTube - British Airways - Club Class - Pleasant Trip - UK Advert

[L'aviateur]

As a Northerner I find that BA doesn't really offer anything suitable; I prefer flying KLM from Humberside, as it's more convenient and despite the business class product not being as good I generally find this route the easiest and most familiar.
I like flying via AMS, it's much easier then LHR and LGW and I also seem to actually earn some miles with KLM and get a status, never seemed to manage with BA despite flying long haul regularly. I use the KLM miles for last minute one-way bookings from Asia or Europe as the only cost is the taxes and fees, and have never had trouble booking them online.

I am also massively dissapointed with the Club Europe product, but this seems to have crept into most airlines with the normal economy seating and possibly a blocked middle seat.

P.S Oh yes, once flying LHR-MAN I was scheduled to sit in Seat 1A and removed at the last moment for Mr G Brown and forced to sit waaayy down the back, gave me a heart racing moment as I rushed to get off the plane and pushed past people to catch a train.

[Midland Transport]

please can I use just some of my air miles

I have accumulated 750000 airmiles and every thime I try and use them I can't. I am looking to go to Barbados next feb march with BA no seats in Bus or First so as normal I go to Virgin and although I have to pay money and miles I am a happy customer.

[ExXB]

Some thoughts

I haven't flown BA for some time, because I believe that they no longer value my custom. This isn't one group, but pretty well all.

Empower your executive club staff. I called to book an open-jaw (which cannot be done on-line) after checking redemption seats available on both sectors to be told - I can't see the same availability as you can. Book it as a oneway yourself!

Fire, or put out to pastures, the dragons in the lounges - they really are unpleasant (actually rude and arrogant). I won't detail the numerous cases where I wanted to dump a bucket of water on them.

If you are going to promote availability at your 'lounge spa', try and have a system where it actually can be used. (I don't care, but Mrs. ExXB does)

Treat your premium passengers better. If we've paid the big bucks let us queue jump. Teach your staff that although they never will be able to pay for business or first themselves, they shouldn't hate us because we (or our employers) can. Get over it.

Get rid of the security check for connecting passengers. There is NO NEED to check us twice (at least if we are coming from a EU/US airport). And please, don't tell me it's too difficult. It isn't. And don't tell me it's the government not you - that's why you have lobbyists.

Change your stupid rewards system. Do what others do, give your miles a cash value that can be used as payment, or part payment for any ticket, in any class, on any flight.

Your 'upgrade for two' should not have an expiry, particularly when it's almost impossible to use them. If you want to reward us, do so - but don't think we appreciate being given something that is impossible to use.

[Anansis]

I'm inclined to agree with F3g's comment that BA do not represent good value for money. I generally fly long haul to south east Asia. Very rarely do I consider BA.

As I live in the north I have to travel to London in order to catch a long haul BA flight (either by train or via an expensive connecting flight which sometimes involves connecting between LHR and LGW at your own expense). Off the top of my head, KLM, air France, finnair, Turkish airlines, emirates and Qatar airways offer connections from my local airport (MAN) which are always cheaper and more convenient than BA. BA probably have the best standards of service I've experienced but the likes of Emirates and Qatar are not too far behind and they are a cheaper more convenient option for most of the 45million British people who happen to live outside of London.

Short haul there is not much to distinguish them from the locos. BA no longer provide refreshments short haul and they charge for seat selection. Frankly I'd rather fly easyjet for half the price.

To improve their product to the point where I would consider flying with them, BA need to do two things. Firstly, they need to better represent themselves in the reigons. As another poster commented, BA should be British airways, not 'london' airways. I appreciate that it can be difficult to support many routes without connecting traffic, but if Singapore airlines can offer a daily sin-man route, why can't BA? If they had kept GB airways they could have offered connections to support the route. Having hubs in the reigons would also help to releive the chronic congestion in the London airports.

Secondly, they need go distinguish their product. BA is a premium brand which people feel a sense of loyalty towards. They should use this instead of alienating their customers (see posts of exXB and midland transport below). Otherwise it will go the same way as aer lingus- an old ageing dinosaur which is trying (and failing) to support a high cost base with low fares. BA should accept that it cannot compete on price and strive to compete on service.

Anansis

[TopBunk]

Anansis

I appreciate that it can be difficult to support many routes without connecting traffic, but if Singapore airlines can offer a daily sin-man route, why can't BA? If they had kept GB airways they could have offered connections to support the route.

I think that you have partly answered your own question.

Singapore Airlines (as do Emirates) use their home base as a hub and spoke operation. For example SQ fly on to many points in Asia and Australia as do EK through DXB. You must also bear in mind that a connecting flight from longhaul to longhaul adds much more value than a longhaul to shorthaul.

BA already offer lots of onward connections through LHR to Europe and North America (and MAN!). A regional BA route to any longhaul destination would have to stand on its own feet on a point-to-point basis, otherwise they are reducing the yields on the routes through LHR.

[Note: even QF who have a large transfer market from SIN to Australia, do not have a non-stop MAN-SIN flight offering]

There is always a market in attracting transfer traffic on a shorthaul to longhaul basis, eg MAN-AMS/FRA/CDG etc, as the shorthaul sector is basically added for free to help support the longhaul network; hence you will see that BA are presently actively seeking out European transfer traffic via LHR to its longhaul network (especially now that LHR T5 baggage performance is vastly better than 18 months ago).

Before anyone slags me off, no one would be happier than I if BA had a substantial regional longhaul network, but they even pulled off the last remaining MAN-JFK route that could support point-to-point traffic citing low yields. Whether or not this was internal politics I guess we'll never really know.

[ConstantFlyer]

Why does British Airways have to have its hub at Heathrow? If it had its hub at, say, Budapest, for Asian and African routes, and, say, Madrid for American routes, then virtually every airport in the UK capable of taking an A319 could be linked to those two hubs. Heathrow would become a regional airport for West London and Berkshire, so no need for a third runway. There would still be space for point-to-point services where load factors justified it (eg London-New York).

[Anansis]

Topbunk-

The point I was trying to make is that by withdrawing from the reigonal airports, BA have lost the potential feeder traffic that could have supported long haul routes from the reigonal airports. Long haul to long haul connections may be more profitable to the airlines than short haul to long haul but the European airlines (KLM, LH, AF etc..) manage to do it competitively and profitably.

Why can't BA offer direct (long and short haul) connections from reigonal airports outside of London? I believe that such routes would generate sufficient point to point traffic to support themselves without purely existing to feed long haul routes. For example, look at the connections between north west England and Amsterdam. Ezy offer up to 5 rotations per day from liv, KLM offer 3 per day each from man and liv (I think jet2 do the route too from blackpool and man but I'm not too sure). Ezy also have up to 10 rotations per day from gva-lpl/man (in addition to the flights offered by Swiss). Sure, ezy's cost base is lower but the Market us certainly there. Surely they could at least offer codeshare connections?

In any case other airlines offer point to point long haul from man without the need for connections- e.g. PIA and Virgin. I find it hard to believe that BA can't find a single profitable route to from outside of London to North America (the ones that do exist are code shares operated by other airlines). Look at how many routes operate from DUB- an airport supporting a population of 6million or so. If DUB can have such an extensive network, some of Britains airports could support long hail routes too, regardless of the need for feeder traffic.

Returning to the point of the thread, British Airways simply isn't British anymore. Until they can offer competitive fares from my local airport, I will not be flying with them.

[PAXboy]

Anansis

... by withdrawing from the reigonal airports, BA have lost the potential feeder traffic that could have supported long haul routes from the reigonal airports.

My GUESS is that each route was sacrifieced to save money in the short term, to give quick savings and help the balance sheet (and bonus'!).

That said, as I have said in the past to defend BA. The competition in the short haul market was more than they could take. Just not enough people are prepared to pay for a premium product.

For an aging company that was not being allowed to link up with it's naturaly ally, AA, tetreating to the old BOAC format was a sensible strategy.

[TopBunk]

Why does British Airways have to have its hub at Heathrow? If it had its hub at, say, Budapest, for Asian and African routes, and, say, Madrid for American routes.....

Have you any idea about how the business works? It would appear not

[Capetonian]

Why does British Airways have to have its hub at Heathrow? If it had its hub at, say, Budapest, for Asian and African routes, and, say, Madrid for American routes, then virtually every airport in the UK capable of taking an A319 could be linked to those two hubs

Do you imagine that UK originating passengers, the majority of whom are from the south east, would want to travel to Budapest, change aircraft, and on to Asia or Africa, and then do the same in reverse on their return? Can you imagine the potential for delays when the inbound connections are delayed?

There are numerous other reasons why this idea is stillborn, the above being perhaps a couple of the most obvious.

[TopBunk]

Anansis

You are blind to the reality...

EI are feeding their LH network from the SH to LH feed from the UK - without it they couldn't operate any LH services. They fly into DUB from LHR, MAN, BHX, NCL,EDI ,GLA, ABZ, xyz....

VS fly to MCO ex MAN (anywhere else year round?). This is a leisure route of no interest to BA (competing with VS would reduce yields rather than increase them, reducing/destroying profitabilty for both).

You really need to take an economics module or two before entering the fray!

[Anansis]

Why does British Airways have to have its hub at Heathrow? If it had its hub at, say, Budapest, for Asian and African routes, and, say, Madrid for American routes.....

Actually, as far as I understand it, that's one of the benefits of the BA/Iberia merger. Both airlines can streamline routes, with Iberia concentrating on South American and BA on North America. In that sense I suppose MAD would be the hub for the groups South American operations...

Anansis

[Anansis]

You really need to take an economics module or two before entering the fray!

...And so it begins- personal insults from people who know nothing about me. I respect your opinion, even if I do not agree with it. I'm actually on my way out so I shall respond to your points (minus any personal attacks) tomorrow.

Anansis

[gdiphil]

Let's face it, BA have been terrible for quite some time. I used to use them predominately for business travel but gave them up about 6 years ago. They were full of rude checkin staff, dragons of both sexes in the lounges and in the cabin, to say nothing of astonishingly unhelpful frequent flyer people on the end of the phone. I was spending a great deal of money with them on 2 or 3 trips to Europe each week as well as long haul trips to South America, Australia, Far East and the States. I found they were safe but increasingly uncompetitive. What did it for me was the change in their long haul cabin in economy. It became such a squeeze even though I am an average 5ft nine inch, average weight middle aged guy. Because they offered an astonishingly cheap deal to the States last September I thought I would give them the business just to see if there was any change. Alas not. They are now worse than any of the US carriers, and that is saying something! Of course in an emergency or if all other carriers on the route are unsafe I wouldn't hesitate to use them. Frankly, if they went bankrupt or the brand disappeared into another group I wouldn't miss them.
However I do miss BOAC. Now they knew about customer service.

So, to bring me back to them which is what F3G asks is easy. Change the longhaul cabin to the old seats and or seating pitch. The rest of the product I don't care about.

[Final 3 Greens]

Topbunk

Have you any idea about how the business works? It would appear not

Perhaps the more pertinent point is does your employer?

They seem to think it is okay to cancel the last flight of the day, decline to offer HOTAC (as the reason is wx related, albeit hours before) and leave you to sort out the mess. (Silver card holder, C class ticket.)

Meanwhile, a loco competitor has a policy of poviding HOTAC for wx cancelations.

What part of this situation suggests that British Airways understands how the business works?

By the way, this happened to me for the 2nd time this year, last night.

And some posters wonder why I am not a fan of BA