Blades on planes.....are they legal??

[lowcostdolly]

A subject of much discussion of late but no actual conclusion.

A recent post on an unrelated thread re a diverted flight has prompted me to post this topic however it has been the subject of much contraversy on some SLF forums to the point where I'm now as crew. This is despite the security regs I have to adhere to every day as crew and when I travel as SLF as well

Would appreciate definitive terms of reference to contradict my viewpoint that blades other than safety razors are not allowed on UK flights and knives AKA blades are in fact illegal.

I believe as do some SLF that blades (other than safety razors) are illegal on flights departing from the UK. My terms of reference are:

• The prevention of crime act 1953 section 1
• The criminal justice act 1988 section 139
• Article 77 of the air navigation orders re the commanders authority re safety. That includes instructions given by the company/DFT which he has to enforce.
• Information given on the CAA/DFT websites re prohibited articles
• All other info on individual company websites
• All signage at check in desks and security channels

The 2 acts above are really clear about carrying anything with a blade that could be interpreted as a weapon in a public place without good reason which the onus is on the csrrier to prove. An airport and a commercial flight is a public place.

Yes there are some exemptions to this act but the CAA/DFT/ individual carriers make it plain throughout their websites, notices at airports/questions re check in.....they do not want blades on a plane!!!

Now we still have some frequent flyers who think they are so exempt they brag openly on this forum on what they have managed/will take on planes!

Am assuming none of you think you are above the law so please give a definitive reference that it is legal to take anything resembling a blade on a departing UK plane as cabin luggage other than a safety razor.

For the avoidance of doubt checked hold baggage as the FF's will know is subject to different regs.

[Donalk]

Blades on planes.....are they legal??

.......sometimes called propellers..........Surely they dont want to ban these as well??

.......sorry Lowcost - just could'nt resist

[Final 3 Greens]

Am assuming none of you think you are above the law so please give a definitive reference that it is legal to take anything resembling a blade on a departing UK plane as cabin luggage other than a safety razor.

Already given by Strake and me on previous thread. <=6cm for knives or <=3cm for scissors.

To save the usual cries of horror, here is the link

Dangerous and restricted items: what you cannot take on board an aircraft : Directgov - Travel and transport

If you are going to cite the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, section 1, you should also include any object that can be adapted to be used as an offensive weapon, so duty free bottles, laptops, laptop cables etc might all be considered potential offensive weaposn.

[The SSK]

Well I can't be bothered to search other threads but from the UK Government directgov site:

Dangerous and restricted items: what you cannot take on board an aircraft : Directgov - Travel and transport

Pointed/edged weapons and sharp objects

The following is not allowed in your hand baggage.

Including but not limited to:

axes and hatchets
arrows and darts
crampons
harpoons and spears
ice axes and ice picks
ice skates
lockable or flick knives with blades of any length
knives, including ceremonial knives, with blades of more than 6cm, made of metal or any other material strong enough to be used as a potential weapon
meat cleavers
machetes
open razors and blades (excluding safety or disposable razors with blades enclosed in cartridge)
sabres, swords and swordsticks
scalpels
scissors with blades more than 3cm in length
ski and walking/hiking poles
throwing stars
tradesman's tools that have the potential to be used as a pointed or edged weapons, including drills and drill bits, box cutters, utility knives, all saws, screwdrivers, crowbars, hammers, pliers, wrenches/spanners, blow torches

But I wouldn't want to argue the toss to try and get a knife with a 5cm blade on board, and if it's a Swiss Army knife they will get you on the corkscrew instead.

[MathFox]

When seeing the list there comes one lawyerly question: Which of the items give rise to criminal offences or misdemeanours and which are only a civil law issue between passenger and airline or airport?

[strake]

But I wouldn't want to argue the toss to try and get a knife with a 5cm blade on board, and if it's a Swiss Army knife they will get you on the corkscrew instead.

Amazing.

It states:
Blades over 6cm. That means 5cm is OK
It does not state you can't bring a corkscrew on board.

Common sense has to prevail. If it's a small swiss army penknife with the usual attachments, then according to the rules, it is not a problem. If on the other hand, you try to board with the mother of all corkscrews or five 5cm throwing knives then expect to be stopped.
Having said all that, I think this thread is just trying to make trouble for the sake of it. It's been done to death elsewhere.

[hotmetal]

Lowcost dolly...
You said the acts say that carrying anything with a blade AKA a knife without good reason is illegal. I haven't read the act [for a while] specifically but does it not say something along the lines of 'without reasonable excuse or lawful authority'? That is not the same as without good reason. A reasonable excuse doesn't mean an excuse authorised by the chief of police and signed in triplicate by the queen. It just means reasonable eg I fit carpets and need a knife for my work or I am off to carve the sunday roast at my Mum's or I just bought it at Debenhams etc. Knives are not illegal. Bringing one onto an aircraft might contradict the 'rules' but IMHO the prosecution would need to prove you had no reasonable excuse eg forgot it. Or prove you intended to use it for an act of terrorism. I think the answers are in the acts you have quoted.

[PAXboy]

Dear Mods, I am trying really hard not to be personal on this one and am well aware of the rules about reposting previous material from other threads. I am reposting excerpts as it seems that the instigator of this thread did not read them the first time around and, if I redirect to the original via a link, they may not get read.

lowcostdolly

Would appreciate definitive terms of reference to contradict my viewpoint that blades other than safety razors are not allowed on UK flights and knives AKA blades are in fact illegal.

Here we go again with the key items in red on this occasion ...

Strake provided that for you:-
Thread: LHR Security (page 2 of 3) http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...ecurity-2.html
Date: 2nd November 15:16
excerpt

the relevant passage from the government website..my highlight.:
Pointed/edged weapons and sharp objects
[edit]
knives, including ceremonial knives, with blades of more than 6cm, made of metal or any other material strong enough to be used as a potential weapon

I also said, on Page 3 of that thread http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...ecurity-3.html
3rd November 21:07

Jarvy

PAXboy why do you need to carry a knife in your hand luggage?

PAXBoy

It's not a knife, it's a short blade as part of a combination tool-like device. In the past, I used to carry a Leatherman and now only do so if I have hold baggage.

* When I go to Africa, I have my case shrink-wrapped for security (that old word again!) and the blade deals with it. If you are in an hotel, it is difficult to get one.
* Opening parcels, letters, shop packing and security sealed purchases etc.
* Mini-screwdriver: Slotted for tightening sunglasses/glasses etc.
* Mini-screwdriver: Cross-Head for same
* Crown cork bottle opener: Self evident!!

I have used the above four features on trips to any country and, as you can imagine, at any time. Once again, the blade (mixed straight edge and serrated) is 4cm long the legal limit is 6cm. It goes in the X-tray EVERY time and has NEVER been questioned. I hope that sets the matter at rest.

That settled it until today ...
lcd

Now we still have some frequent flyers who think they are so exempt they brag openly on this forum on what they have managed/will take on planes!
[edit]
Am assuming none of you think you are above the law so please give a definitive reference that it is legal to take anything resembling a blade on a departing UK plane as cabin luggage other than a safety razor.

So ... Just what else can I say or do to prove that I:

• am not exempt from the rules of the carrier or govt overseeing the flight.
• am not bragging but stating a fact
• have not broken the law
• am not 'insisting' about taking a blade on a journey, I simply take a legal blade with me every day of the year. For example, on Thursday last, I was visiting a friend in hospital and the blade was used to open a box of very well sealed chocolates for her. [not Milk Tray ]

Last time I posted the facts, no one denied them, so I took it that you accepted them. To use words of another on this forum:
Would appreciate definitive terms of reference to contradict my viewpoint that <edit> I have done nothing illegal.

[Final 3 Greens]

Paxboy

If you read the opening line.....

A subject of much discussion of late but no actual conclusion.

You will realise that LCD suffers from a chronic inability to take meaning from the postings of others.

Abusing The Sky, who has been well known around here for some time and who enjoys high credibility, has openly questioned whether LCD is actually CC and Strake has wondered if we have a troll on the forum.

You have been on here for years and have often helped other posters with information and suggestions, i.e. you are a respected member of the online community.

If LCD's comments were aimed at you (and I suspect they were not), then I would not even give them consideration

[The SSK]

There are a number of lists on the directgov site, the one I quoted was the 'sharp pointed and edged weapons' category. Corkscrews are somewhere else, as are baseball bats and thise deadly items, skateboards.

I had a pal who recently was relieved of a 10 mil spanner. Perhaps they thought he intended to unscrew the aircraft in flight.

[HuntandFish]

I carry one of the very small Swiss Army knives tiny blade even shorter scissors .
On two occaisions I have forgotten to leave it in the office and had it picked up in my suit jacket pocket at Heathrow and Inverness .
Result , confiscated and treated like a naughty schoolboy .

[The Real Slim Shady]

Would you get a Skean Dhu through security if you were wearing it as part of your national dress....Highland dress.....if the blade was less than 6cm ?

[HuntandFish]

Slim
Very much doubt it . I understand Sikhs have a similar problem with their ceremonial knife .
Dont know about Ghurkas though!!

[Katamarino]

I believe you'll find that the lists are pretty worthless, and what is allowed through entirely depends on the vagaries of the screener on the day. Any attempt to reason with them, and point out that it is allowed, will be met with over-zealousness, obstructiveness, and delays to make you miss your flight.

For example, my girlfriend had a small jar of Vegemite confiscated. Anyone who has seen Vegemite will know that is a solid. What the hell??

[HuntandFish]

Katamarino
Very true the guy in front of me at LGW last week had a small sealed jar of Marmite Confiscated

[spiney]

Been ages since I've posted on SLF and I've only now remembered why... puerile drivel... It's metal, shiney and pointy - if in doubt check it in or leave it behind - how hard is this concept?

[Final 3 Greens]

It's metal, shiney and pointy - if in doubt check it in or leave it behind - how hard is this concept?

Please let it be ages until you post such compost again.

If it is =<6cm, it can go, unless it is scissors, in which case the blades must be =<3cm. There is no doubt.

That's the law, if you don't like it, lobby your MP.

How hard is this concept?

[Gargleblaster]

I once got caught with a potato peeler ! The security bloke made a fool of himself telling me how serious a weapon this was and telling me that if this was in the US, I would have been arrested.

[PAXboy]

spiney, I will rise to your challenge.

This thread, it is true, is not of great consequence. We are pointing out absurdities of the world and gently reminding each other that our airports are as crazy as theirs.

On the other hand ... there are many times when this forum is full if helpful and key information to fellow travellers. Times when the crews (flight and cabin) and passenger are deeply appreciative of each other's postings and notes.

You have based your opinion on a single snapshot - it's a bit like if I peered into your living room for 30 seconds at a random moment in time and based my everlasting view of you and yours on that 30 seconds. Of course, there is no doubt that I would find you in a mentally stimulating conversation and completing the latest redecoration of your property. No chance that you would be slumped on the sofa scratching your Arsenal.

[lowcostdolly]

THE definitive reference

Well 18 posts and one trip for me as an SLF wanting to carry a blade later here is the law......at a major UK airport at least!

Despite what some people think on here my original question for a definitive reference was a genuine one and yes I can and have read the numerous lists around. I wanted to carry an Xmas present, fully gift wrapped, as cabin baggage from A to B. It contained a blade under 6cm.

All the posts on this forum tell me this is legal. Any list you can read makes reference to blades under 6cm etc. My crew training and experience however tells me otherwise.

So this week I pitched up at check in with my "legal blade". I also went armed with some posts and the list on this forum all of which tell me my blade was legal.

Was asked the standard sharp items question by the agent which I answered honestly and showed the gift wrapped item.......refused as cabin baggage.

Showed agent lists posts etc so she called supervisor......item refused as cabin baggage as a "potential weapon".

I questioned further so she called a bod from security.......bag refused as cabin baggage. I then questioned the decision and asked for the point of law which was provided to me.

Airlines do not want blades in the pax cabin...end of. They then went onto some points raised by F3G on a previous thread re intentions.

No pax has a valid reason for having a blade/knife of any description in an aircraft cabin. Cultery is provided by the airline and other examples were given as well. The fact that I just wanted to avoid the checked baggage charge was not considered a valid reason to carry my gift wrapped blade of under 6 cm's in the cabin.

I was given a choice. Check my baggage or don't fly......I checked my baggage!

Was also given an example of what would happen if I did not do this and then declared/my item was detected at security.

This was on a UK based airline at a UK airport.......form your own conclusions.

Personally I think Spiney has hit the nail on the head because it seemed to be what I was being told the other day.

If you want to confirm the law would suggest you contact the authorities at the airport from which you wish to fly.