Rules For Self Loading Freight
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Fair point, smudgiebottom, which is why I said in my post, that I'd like them to be placarded. I'd also like to see it mentioned during the safety brief.
Then again, where do we draw the line at what needs to be instructed and what we can put down to basic manners. I shouldn't have to tell passengers not to poke me in the belly, buttocks or crotch (believe me, it happens) but it seems I do. Going by other posts on here, I'm not the only one. Do we need signs to tell pax not to put full diapers in the seat pocket - or even the overhead lockers? Do we need signs and PAs to tell pax not to stand their children on the tray table? Where does it end?
Just so I'm not being biased. Passengers shouldn't have to tell crew to keep it down in the galleys on night flights. It's a basic courtesy and one of my buttons. Anyone who has sat in 4A on one our 777 IGWs knows what I am talking about.
Then again, where do we draw the line at what needs to be instructed and what we can put down to basic manners. I shouldn't have to tell passengers not to poke me in the belly, buttocks or crotch (believe me, it happens) but it seems I do. Going by other posts on here, I'm not the only one. Do we need signs to tell pax not to put full diapers in the seat pocket - or even the overhead lockers? Do we need signs and PAs to tell pax not to stand their children on the tray table? Where does it end?
Just so I'm not being biased. Passengers shouldn't have to tell crew to keep it down in the galleys on night flights. It's a basic courtesy and one of my buttons. Anyone who has sat in 4A on one our 777 IGWs knows what I am talking about.
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I concur pretty much with everything above.
Last Saturday I flew LGW-ZRH. Midday I arrived at security and received a “good afternoon” from the ‘girl that puts things on trays for the scanner’ and I replied with a cheery (I am quite happy!) “good afternoon, how are you?” to which she replied “that’s the first one I’ve had today! I am better now thanks”.
So I guess we can all remember to be not just nice to CC, but also EE (Everyone Else).
Which includes my special gripe, bloody arrogant tosspot SLF.
As a regular traveller I am regularly sat in front of tosspot SLF who can’t get out of their seats with out pulling mine backwards, who take a window seat on an overnight flight but then drink a bladder full and have to visit the bathrooms 4 times in the night. People with oversize carry-on luggage (why don’t airlines stop this?) and my number 1 hate, people that just drop their seats back into your lap without so much of a check to see that you are not sitting with a 2 year old on your lap, or a lap top or a cup of coffee. IIRC, Aer Lingus and EasyJet have seats that don’t drop back – bliss.
Lastly, the gold card/top tier card carrying tossers that push in at the front of all the queues. I have one too guys and probably do half a dozen people standing around us so WTF do you think you are doing pushing in front of all of us?
CC, compared to these arseholes, are a welcome relief. I’ve never had a problem. FWIW BA are the best IME, but as a general rule, Brit cabin crew leave the other European nationalities far behind. But maybe, as a Brit, I am looking for ‘politeness indicators’ and get the most from other Brits, Germans from Germans, Belgians from Belgians etc. But I don’t think so.
Last Saturday I flew LGW-ZRH. Midday I arrived at security and received a “good afternoon” from the ‘girl that puts things on trays for the scanner’ and I replied with a cheery (I am quite happy!) “good afternoon, how are you?” to which she replied “that’s the first one I’ve had today! I am better now thanks”.
So I guess we can all remember to be not just nice to CC, but also EE (Everyone Else).
Which includes my special gripe, bloody arrogant tosspot SLF.
As a regular traveller I am regularly sat in front of tosspot SLF who can’t get out of their seats with out pulling mine backwards, who take a window seat on an overnight flight but then drink a bladder full and have to visit the bathrooms 4 times in the night. People with oversize carry-on luggage (why don’t airlines stop this?) and my number 1 hate, people that just drop their seats back into your lap without so much of a check to see that you are not sitting with a 2 year old on your lap, or a lap top or a cup of coffee. IIRC, Aer Lingus and EasyJet have seats that don’t drop back – bliss.
Lastly, the gold card/top tier card carrying tossers that push in at the front of all the queues. I have one too guys and probably do half a dozen people standing around us so WTF do you think you are doing pushing in front of all of us?
CC, compared to these arseholes, are a welcome relief. I’ve never had a problem. FWIW BA are the best IME, but as a general rule, Brit cabin crew leave the other European nationalities far behind. But maybe, as a Brit, I am looking for ‘politeness indicators’ and get the most from other Brits, Germans from Germans, Belgians from Belgians etc. But I don’t think so.
Last edited by Mr Quite Happy; 8th Sep 2009 at 07:05.
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Mr Quite Happy
I consider myself mainly British in cultural terms (born there), but having lived in Malta for quite a few years, some of that rubs off as well.
As well as acknowledging that 'polite' may look different in different cultures (you are right IMO) have you considered that cultural differences may also mean that 'politness' is more valued in Britain than in other countries and that other cultures may value other attributes more highly?
Personally, I prefer someone to be open, friendly and direct.
The acid test is the question from wife to husband 'does my bum look big in this?'
The range of responses will vary considerably and of course it is not all a consequence of culture.
Nonetheless, I do perceive some quite obvious differences between Northern Europe and Southern Europe.
Let me say that I agree starting with a smile and warm greeting is a good idea universally, as your quoted exchange demonstrates.
It is sad that the response from the other person is sometimes to ignore it, but hey ho - at lest you found someone who appreciated your courteous approach.
Slight vaariation on this theme, if you ever have to travel through the old terminals at cairo, whe it is busy, slip the porter 5 egyptian pounds (about 60p) and he will lead you straight to the front of the queues to pre-scan you luggage before check in.
Pushing in? Absolutely, but that's the way they do things.
But maybe, as a Brit, I am looking for ‘politeness indicators’ and get the most from other Brits, Germans from Germans, Belgians from Belgians etc. But I don’t think so.
As well as acknowledging that 'polite' may look different in different cultures (you are right IMO) have you considered that cultural differences may also mean that 'politness' is more valued in Britain than in other countries and that other cultures may value other attributes more highly?
Personally, I prefer someone to be open, friendly and direct.
The acid test is the question from wife to husband 'does my bum look big in this?'
The range of responses will vary considerably and of course it is not all a consequence of culture.
Nonetheless, I do perceive some quite obvious differences between Northern Europe and Southern Europe.
Let me say that I agree starting with a smile and warm greeting is a good idea universally, as your quoted exchange demonstrates.
It is sad that the response from the other person is sometimes to ignore it, but hey ho - at lest you found someone who appreciated your courteous approach.
Lastly, the gold card/top tier card carrying tossers that push in at the front of all the queues
Pushing in? Absolutely, but that's the way they do things.
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Just a couple of points and questions from reading the replies, as I previously noted I very rarely fly commercially so this is just genuine interest.
On the mind reading thing, if CC would like call bells to be used as more of an emergency button than service button, do they have the authority to include it in the passenger brief, or is that specified by the airline. As a GA pilot I can obviously brief my passengers how I like, in the interests of safety and comfort I always cover the basics, but I have discretion to add things to the brief as I feel necessary - do commercial crews have that liberty?
I guess i'm thinking that when I have used call bells cabin crew never came running as if it was an emergency, nor mentioned that it would be appreciated if I came to the galley instead (I personally thought the galley was off-limits unless crew). I'm a pretty easy going person, and don't mind abiding reasonable requests from people to make their life easier.
I don't want to to open the can of worms that 'we pay your wages' as I, like you, feel it's very derogatory, but unless flying an el-cheapo airline where you save on $ because of the lack of service, some level of service is expected, what do you guys n gals who work as CC see that level of service to be for cattle class?
And finally, things seem to differ drastically between flights, let alone airlines, for example some Qantas flights I have been on had free beer/wine and purchased spirits, others you paid for the lot, is this common, as to my memory the flights were of similar cost and duration yet the service differed quite drastically.
On the mind reading thing, if CC would like call bells to be used as more of an emergency button than service button, do they have the authority to include it in the passenger brief, or is that specified by the airline. As a GA pilot I can obviously brief my passengers how I like, in the interests of safety and comfort I always cover the basics, but I have discretion to add things to the brief as I feel necessary - do commercial crews have that liberty?
I guess i'm thinking that when I have used call bells cabin crew never came running as if it was an emergency, nor mentioned that it would be appreciated if I came to the galley instead (I personally thought the galley was off-limits unless crew). I'm a pretty easy going person, and don't mind abiding reasonable requests from people to make their life easier.
I don't want to to open the can of worms that 'we pay your wages' as I, like you, feel it's very derogatory, but unless flying an el-cheapo airline where you save on $ because of the lack of service, some level of service is expected, what do you guys n gals who work as CC see that level of service to be for cattle class?
And finally, things seem to differ drastically between flights, let alone airlines, for example some Qantas flights I have been on had free beer/wine and purchased spirits, others you paid for the lot, is this common, as to my memory the flights were of similar cost and duration yet the service differed quite drastically.
Curious
I don't think I've ever used the "I pay your wages" comment to anyone. I often feel like it with respect to the BBC, but that's another story.
However, it makes me think ............Just exactly what is wrong with saying "I pay your wages" ???
We are Customers, NOT SLF. If you go over to the BA CC thread, you'll realise that some of the BA CC - but not all, and GG fights a great battle for common sense - could not care less about their customers.
Maybe more of them should realise that "I pay your wages".
(My next 2 long haul flights are now with Virgin rather than BA due to CC attitudes)
?????
However, it makes me think ............Just exactly what is wrong with saying "I pay your wages" ???
We are Customers, NOT SLF. If you go over to the BA CC thread, you'll realise that some of the BA CC - but not all, and GG fights a great battle for common sense - could not care less about their customers.
Maybe more of them should realise that "I pay your wages".
(My next 2 long haul flights are now with Virgin rather than BA due to CC attitudes)
?????
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer
However, it makes me think ............Just exactly what is wrong with saying "I pay your wages" ???
Yes, indirectly, you may have contributed towards my wages, which I am grateful for, along with a lot of other people who have also contributed, but you certainly haven't "paid my wages". There's a difference, you know.
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Next time I fly BA, I am going to email them to say that I expect my ticket fare to pay towards the wages of Glamgirl and Jetset Lady, because they are both very class acts 
Of course, I'll probably never fly with you both, but at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing my 2 bob is going to a good home
And I should include VS-LHRCSA, who is also cool.
Sorry frontcheck, don''t get to fly Midland.
Of course, I'll probably never fly with you both, but at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing my 2 bob is going to a good home
And I should include VS-LHRCSA, who is also cool.
Sorry frontcheck, don''t get to fly Midland.
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Cheers F3G. Right now, I'm on unpaid leave to do my masters, so the Aussie government is paying my wages right now, lol
The whole 'paying your wages' thing might be a fair point but is just a completely arrogant thing to say. Looking at the bigger picture, don't we all pay each others wage in some way? A good example is Barclay's Bank. When I was in customer relations part of my job was dealing with complaints by Barclay's employees. Some complaints were valid, some not. One stood out - a woman complaining that there was no bacon in the FIRST lounge - on the morning of the T5 opening. Beggars belief! As a Barclay's customer, I was thinking is this why my fees are so high, so you can fly around the world in FIRST?
As for service levels in economy. The bar was set by airlines pretty high in the 60s when economy class really took hold. Back then, though, fare levels where higher and crew compliments were larger. Fares are now lower (especially compared to income) and airlines that have to pay their way (and not survive on government handouts or hide behind Chapter 11) have had to lower crew levels.
Airlines are having to carefully balance passenger service expectations with increasingly less and less resources AND compete with state owned incumbents that can afford greater numbers of crew and not have to turn a profit.
Personally, I believe that everyone, regardless of what they have paid, should be treated with respect as a customer and fellow human being on the planet. This respect however is a two way interaction that relies on basic courtesy.
Dot Product, to address your points. It generally seen as okay to come to the galley entrance and engage the crew once the service is over and no, as crew we don't have the power to change the passenger brief. In earlier posts, I was saying that that is what I would like to happen.
The whole 'paying your wages' thing might be a fair point but is just a completely arrogant thing to say. Looking at the bigger picture, don't we all pay each others wage in some way? A good example is Barclay's Bank. When I was in customer relations part of my job was dealing with complaints by Barclay's employees. Some complaints were valid, some not. One stood out - a woman complaining that there was no bacon in the FIRST lounge - on the morning of the T5 opening. Beggars belief! As a Barclay's customer, I was thinking is this why my fees are so high, so you can fly around the world in FIRST?
As for service levels in economy. The bar was set by airlines pretty high in the 60s when economy class really took hold. Back then, though, fare levels where higher and crew compliments were larger. Fares are now lower (especially compared to income) and airlines that have to pay their way (and not survive on government handouts or hide behind Chapter 11) have had to lower crew levels.
Airlines are having to carefully balance passenger service expectations with increasingly less and less resources AND compete with state owned incumbents that can afford greater numbers of crew and not have to turn a profit.
Personally, I believe that everyone, regardless of what they have paid, should be treated with respect as a customer and fellow human being on the planet. This respect however is a two way interaction that relies on basic courtesy.
Dot Product, to address your points. It generally seen as okay to come to the galley entrance and engage the crew once the service is over and no, as crew we don't have the power to change the passenger brief. In earlier posts, I was saying that that is what I would like to happen.
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Who Are You Dealing With?
It helps interaction with anyone if you ask yourself that question before opening your mouth.
The first issue with air crew is that their biological clocks may be out of whack because of time zones. For female crew, that includes menstrual cycles. Second, jobs that keep folks away from family correlate with high divorce rates: the human body responds to divorce the same way it responds to death in the family. The airline industry is no exception. Sure, people ought to leave personal problems at home and work problems at the office, but most folks can do that only somewhat. Third, there may be personality clashes between crew members. Fourth, if there's been an accident recently, that accident is going to be at the back of your mind when you board, particularly if it's your airline or aircraft type. Fifth, as noted, there is pressure to cut staff numbers, wages and benefits, which tends to generate resentment in staff. Now throw in the odd touchie-feelie passenger plus one or two more with an intuitive knack for inconveniencing CC and neighbours.
And then of course there are the functional duties of the job itself.
What have I missed?
The basic rule in economy class is to keep a very low profile, occupy the smallest possible footprint and obey any instructions like a picture-perfect schoolchild with clean fingernails and neatly combed hair. A second tip is to travel with just a shapeless cloth bag containing around 7kg. of necessities and never check in a thing: it won't hurt anyone if it falls out of overhead stowage and you can sail straight past the baggage carousels to your bus or taxi. Happy Skies!
The first issue with air crew is that their biological clocks may be out of whack because of time zones. For female crew, that includes menstrual cycles. Second, jobs that keep folks away from family correlate with high divorce rates: the human body responds to divorce the same way it responds to death in the family. The airline industry is no exception. Sure, people ought to leave personal problems at home and work problems at the office, but most folks can do that only somewhat. Third, there may be personality clashes between crew members. Fourth, if there's been an accident recently, that accident is going to be at the back of your mind when you board, particularly if it's your airline or aircraft type. Fifth, as noted, there is pressure to cut staff numbers, wages and benefits, which tends to generate resentment in staff. Now throw in the odd touchie-feelie passenger plus one or two more with an intuitive knack for inconveniencing CC and neighbours.
And then of course there are the functional duties of the job itself.
What have I missed?
The basic rule in economy class is to keep a very low profile, occupy the smallest possible footprint and obey any instructions like a picture-perfect schoolchild with clean fingernails and neatly combed hair. A second tip is to travel with just a shapeless cloth bag containing around 7kg. of necessities and never check in a thing: it won't hurt anyone if it falls out of overhead stowage and you can sail straight past the baggage carousels to your bus or taxi. Happy Skies!
Jetset
I did say that I had never used the phrase.......!!!
I would happily support F3G's comments about BA. It is nice to have some of the sensible folk posting on here!
I've also travelled enough to see some of the morons and arrogant pillocks that CC have to deal with, so I have to say I do not envy you your jobs. (Except for the antique CSDs on long haul who seem to get lots of money for very little work when they are at work, and who work about 1/3 the time that I used to work)
In the end, in the UK, the only people that pay the wages of anyone in Aviation are the customers. That's not arrogant, it is just fact. When I moved in to Aviation some years ago, (I've now retired), I was surprised how few people in the sector grasped that fact. Maybe a re-launch of PPF for everyone would help.
I did say that I had never used the phrase.......!!!
I would happily support F3G's comments about BA. It is nice to have some of the sensible folk posting on here!
I've also travelled enough to see some of the morons and arrogant pillocks that CC have to deal with, so I have to say I do not envy you your jobs. (Except for the antique CSDs on long haul who seem to get lots of money for very little work when they are at work, and who work about 1/3 the time that I used to work)
In the end, in the UK, the only people that pay the wages of anyone in Aviation are the customers. That's not arrogant, it is just fact. When I moved in to Aviation some years ago, (I've now retired), I was surprised how few people in the sector grasped that fact. Maybe a re-launch of PPF for everyone would help.
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Oh, and one other rule I forgot which should be applied to all male passengers:
1. Please don't pee on the toilet seat. It really is not at all that difficult to raise the seat before doing so.
1. Please don't pee on the toilet seat. It really is not at all that difficult to raise the seat before doing so.
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and FLUSH for fecks sake!
How very dare you VS, the FLUSH button is there to be ignored by some pax!
You know it, i know it, drama of our lives... The big (blue in our a/c's) button is there as decoration, completely ignored.... Dear pax, you wouldn't do that in your own house, so why do it on an airliner???
As for the "i pay your wages" debate. How many times before did we discussed it on here? (or on Galley.FM)
It is not a question of "i pay your wages". As demonstrated before, if one uses the First Class train, one pays for the Train Attendants' wages. If one takes the bus, one pays for the bus drivers' wages. If one goes to cinema, one pays for the cinema attendants (is that how you call it, i don't know) wages. For fecks sake, if one goes to the loo in Central London, one pays for the Toilet Attendants (is that what you call the job, i don't know...) wages!
Get a grip will you! It's a vicious circle and all of us are involved in it! It's like meself going in a clothes shop, pick every single most expensive piece of clothing on the rails and go to the shop assistant: "You're breathing too loud. That wasn't on the shop's "Terms and Conditions". Stop breathing, remember who pays your wages...
Are you serious???
There are a lot, a LOT of things i simply close my eyes to and let them go over me head, but this "i pay your wages" business has to be the most annoying, excruciating thing i ever had to put up with. Last time a pax said that to me (after a very long argument on his part), luckily for me we were still on the ground, he got offloaded no questions asked, and thank you very much, you won't be flying this airline ever again. Bye bye, have a nice day
Rgds,
ATS
I guess that we differ.
As I've said before, I've never said that phrase to anyone.
When I worked both in Fast Moving Consumer Goods, and in Parcel Transportation, it was Perfectly OK for Customers to point out that they paid your wages.
In some sectors it is NORMAL for the customer to remind the supplier who pays their wages.
One big buyer from a UK retail chain reminded me each time we met! I didn't mind one bit, as it was completely true..........as it is true in Aviation
Other than personal annoyance, I'm still unclear why it is "forbidden" by FAs/CC.
I can understand it if the person saying it is a complete plonker, drunk, or abusive. Beyond that, it strikes me that it is arrogant of an FA/CCA to get so annoyed by it. As to offloading, I suspect that there must have been lots more to it than just "I pay your wages".
As I've said before, I've never said that phrase to anyone.
When I worked both in Fast Moving Consumer Goods, and in Parcel Transportation, it was Perfectly OK for Customers to point out that they paid your wages.
In some sectors it is NORMAL for the customer to remind the supplier who pays their wages.
One big buyer from a UK retail chain reminded me each time we met! I didn't mind one bit, as it was completely true..........as it is true in Aviation
Other than personal annoyance, I'm still unclear why it is "forbidden" by FAs/CC.
I can understand it if the person saying it is a complete plonker, drunk, or abusive. Beyond that, it strikes me that it is arrogant of an FA/CCA to get so annoyed by it. As to offloading, I suspect that there must have been lots more to it than just "I pay your wages".
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer
I did say that I had never used the phrase.......!!!
The problem is, when used in the context of a commercial airline flight, such a comment by one individual passenger to one individual crew member, is invariably intended to belittle that crew member. And in that context, it is also incorrect.
Jsl
P.S. F3G...could you possibly make that 2.50? One day....
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The problem is, when used in the context of a commercial airline flight, such a comment by one individual passenger to one individual crew member, is invariably intended to belittle that crew member. And in that context, it is also incorrect.
I think I would like to buy you a drink!
The correct response I would imagine to "I pay your wages" is "I didn't realise we had any shareholders on the flight Sir/Ma'am. Shall I inform the passengers that you are here, I'm sure some of our customers would like to talk to you too"
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But shareholders don't pay your wages - they lend money to the company in expectation of a return. They therefore take money out, rather than put it in! Granted, dealing with the public is not easy, but at the end of the day the money they pay (on non-PSO routes) IS the only reason for operating the service, and no service does mean no CC (or pilots, groundstaff, or CEO!) That does not condone or excuse poor behaviour from pax of course.
Going back to call buttons, I have never used one - but then I have generally been on short sectors with our two indigenous LCCs, so there is little need. On FR, it seems their main use is be the CC to attract each others attention.
On luggage, the sooner airlines in Europe rigidly enforce cabin bag size the better - and I applaud FR's approach on this. On EI, it has not been such a problem as on my flights with them load factor has been less than 50% so there has been plenty of spare space.
Sean
Going back to call buttons, I have never used one - but then I have generally been on short sectors with our two indigenous LCCs, so there is little need. On FR, it seems their main use is be the CC to attract each others attention.
On luggage, the sooner airlines in Europe rigidly enforce cabin bag size the better - and I applaud FR's approach on this. On EI, it has not been such a problem as on my flights with them load factor has been less than 50% so there has been plenty of spare space.
Sean