Fly MayBe - wot a shower
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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Skipness 1E
Nope, there is no liquid restriction of which you talk. Many folks bring their own food and drink in when doing Heathrow Radar, with no limits.
Heathrow Tower controllers on the other hand ...
In the same way we now have more passengers than ever, paying less for a nightmarish and often humiliating flying experience. I might add this is the workd where the ATC Radar Controller directing 1000s of us into Heathriw cannot be trusted to take a 101ml yogurt to work.
Heathrow Tower controllers on the other hand ...
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I was booked on a LGW-JER with Flybe. My inbound transatlantic arrived early and I'd allowed about 3 hours to connect as I was on separate tickets, so I had plenty of time (nearly two hours) to take an earlier flight than the one I was booked on.
I went to the ticket counter to change the flight and was told that, yes, they had 'a load' of seats on the earlier flight, but it would cost me £70 to change onto it, just slightly more than I'd paid for the original ticket! I wasn't in that much of a hurry but it irked me that some 18 year bimbo, with 5 kilos of make up and nose and lip studs, refused to accept my contention that they would be better off letting me go on a seat that would otherwise go empty, and possibly selling my seat on the later flight to a go-show. Even if my seat on the later flight had remained empty they would not have lost revenue. The pimply 'supervisor' was not prepared to discuss the matter.
So I stood aside, rang Exeter (I'd asked the ticket counter to do so but they refused) was rebooked, and my ticket revalidated for the earlier flight at no charge.
I've worked in revenue management and heard all the arguments, but I have yet to hear one that convinces me that, provided there is space available and time for formalities to be completed, there is no reason why an airline should not accept a go-show for an earlier flight. Several make it a policy to do so, Easyjet being perhaps the first example that comes to mind.
Other than that, I flew about 20 sectors last year with BE, mostly in and out of the Channel Islands, and had no problems that were down to the carrier or its policies. I'm doing another flight with them this weekend so I may have further comments after that!
I went to the ticket counter to change the flight and was told that, yes, they had 'a load' of seats on the earlier flight, but it would cost me £70 to change onto it, just slightly more than I'd paid for the original ticket! I wasn't in that much of a hurry but it irked me that some 18 year bimbo, with 5 kilos of make up and nose and lip studs, refused to accept my contention that they would be better off letting me go on a seat that would otherwise go empty, and possibly selling my seat on the later flight to a go-show. Even if my seat on the later flight had remained empty they would not have lost revenue. The pimply 'supervisor' was not prepared to discuss the matter.
So I stood aside, rang Exeter (I'd asked the ticket counter to do so but they refused) was rebooked, and my ticket revalidated for the earlier flight at no charge.
I've worked in revenue management and heard all the arguments, but I have yet to hear one that convinces me that, provided there is space available and time for formalities to be completed, there is no reason why an airline should not accept a go-show for an earlier flight. Several make it a policy to do so, Easyjet being perhaps the first example that comes to mind.
Other than that, I flew about 20 sectors last year with BE, mostly in and out of the Channel Islands, and had no problems that were down to the carrier or its policies. I'm doing another flight with them this weekend so I may have further comments after that!
Shining Example, apparently...
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Ticketing flexibility can easily be yours - for a higher initial fare. But once again, it's a case of "I bought the cheapest possible ticket, and now I want the airline to change the rules because they no longer suit me." Charming comments about the checkin staff, too. Shame on Exeter for letting the side down!
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capetonian -you say you worked in revenue management , you should therefore undestand the 18 year old bimbo (your words) and the pimply supervisor (again your words) were in fact doing their job correctly. Why dont you start your own airline, charge everyone low fares with restrictions, then allow them to swap flights,dates,times etc.,free of charge and see how long it lasts !
You are responsible for making yourself aware of the conditions of your ticket at time of purchase.
If you purchased a supermarkets own brand of beans them took it back next day and wanted to swap it free of charge for a more expensive tin, do you think it would be allowed?
You are responsible for making yourself aware of the conditions of your ticket at time of purchase.
If you purchased a supermarkets own brand of beans them took it back next day and wanted to swap it free of charge for a more expensive tin, do you think it would be allowed?
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I'm not going to get into a slanging match with the posters of the last two comments, nor to stoop to that level of sarcasm.
You have both missed the point, which given that you are making some assumptions is unsurprising, and don't really appear to have much grasp of the fundamentals of balancing customer satisfaction against managing revenue and ensuring that the right seat is sold to the right passenger at the right fare.
You have both missed the point, which given that you are making some assumptions is unsurprising, and don't really appear to have much grasp of the fundamentals of balancing customer satisfaction against managing revenue and ensuring that the right seat is sold to the right passenger at the right fare.
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and that is exactly what happened, the right seat was sold at the right price to you then you expected to be able to change the rules of the fare to suit yourself,,,and gave no thought to any other customer who had paid same fare and abided by the rules.
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Capetonian
I'd save your breath, if I were you.
The people who are giving you stick are clearly clueless, e.g. one of them said "Comment cards? Quaint."
Strange that I have filled out three of those in the past six weeks, all complimentary of good service received.
I'd save your breath, if I were you.
The people who are giving you stick are clearly clueless, e.g. one of them said "Comment cards? Quaint."
Strange that I have filled out three of those in the past six weeks, all complimentary of good service received.
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Final 3 Greens
I can assure you I do know what I am talking about, having been in the airline business over 30 years and having dealt with restricted fares on many many occassions. I have heard every excuse under the sun (and then some) at the end of the day the customer has agreed a contract which they then want to change to suit themselves.
Customer service is not just giving in to someones demands, I agree it depends on how it is said and not what is said. Capetonian asked the question was given the answer he did not want to hear so wanted to speak to a superior why? When this did not work he then asked a 3rd time to the call centre, Why?
Because he wanted to amend the contract without the penalties originally agreed to.
I can assure you I do know what I am talking about, having been in the airline business over 30 years and having dealt with restricted fares on many many occassions. I have heard every excuse under the sun (and then some) at the end of the day the customer has agreed a contract which they then want to change to suit themselves.
Customer service is not just giving in to someones demands, I agree it depends on how it is said and not what is said. Capetonian asked the question was given the answer he did not want to hear so wanted to speak to a superior why? When this did not work he then asked a 3rd time to the call centre, Why?
Because he wanted to amend the contract without the penalties originally agreed to.
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Because he wanted to amend the contract without the penalties originally agreed to.
easyJet has a policy of bumping people on to the next available flight, if a seat is available, have you ever considered why?
And do airlines always stick to the contract terms or implied terms? So please don't make out the contract T&Cs are a form of holy grail.
Your grasp of commerciality, customer service and retention seems tenuous.
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Your grasp of commerciality, customer service and retention seems tenuous.
There's an interesting split in views on this thread, between those employed by airlines, and those that do business with them. It's worth pointing out that those of you that are customers posting in here are, by definition, not 'normal' customers. You tend to travel more frequently than the majority, and therefore have a perception of the industry that is shaded differently (allowing for the fact that most of those outside here that consider themselves frequent flyers are in fact, not). What I'm getting at is that in certain instances, some of you might feel entitled to privilege or recognition (such as flexibility), and this is warranted. Sadly, it is not warranted for most customers, despite what they may think. It's worth taking another read of the post above by Bealzebub - which, as usual, is right on the money. An excellent description of the how and why of LoCo flying today, and an explanation of why most of you will experience resistance when asking for 'flexibility' and 'discretion'
I spend my working life managing the needs and expectations of our highest value customers, both in-flight and on the ground. On occasion, I flex and bend rules for them, however, this happens much less frequently than you might assume. Most really experienced customers already know the rules and procedures very well, and the real McCoy will avoid getting in those circumstances in the first place, and know how to genuinely seek help when they are stuck. You can spot very quickly those who are the real thing, and those that are wannabes - the real thing is always a pleasure to assist, and is why you come to work that day.
If you are a frequent flyer, regularly spending serious money, with a loyalty account on a full-service airline, you are entitled to expect, well... whatever you want really. If you are travelling on a short-haul LoCo and you choose to expect the same standards and privileges then go ahead - knock yourself out! But you'd surely be naive to expect anything other than disappointment.
P.S.
I'm feeling guilty - the OP hasn't come back, and Avman has retired from the thread. It's true I'm a Mod posting on this thread, but I'm just expressing my personal views. You're all entitled to disagree with them - you don't get banned or punished in some way for having a different view. I may be wrong - my wife tells me often that I am - so, post and prove it
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There's an interesting split in views on this thread, between those employed by airlines, and those that do business with them.
If you are a frequent flyer, regularly spending serious money, with a loyalty account on a full-service airline, you are entitled to expect, well... whatever you want really. If you are travelling on a short-haul LoCo and you choose to expect the same standards and privileges then go ahead - knock yourself out! But you'd surely be naive to expect anything other than disappointment.
Take easyJet, for example.
Recently, I took three short flights in and around the UK and messed up the online check in for one of them, by doing two things in the wrong order.
The customer service response was fast, efficient and pleasant and my mess up was fixed without fuss.
I got no more nor less than my ticket entitled me to, but the customer experience was excellent.
To come back to Capetonian's comments, easyJet does have a policy of bumping pax on to the next available flight and you can bet your bottom dollar that this is not a charitable act. Someone has made a careful calculation that this is good business.
Like Captonian, I am not convinced that insisting someone travel on a later flight is necessarily good business, if the opportunity cost is low. Once the doors have closed on an earlier flight, that empty seat will generate no revenue, whereas an empty seat on a later flight (especially if becoming full or overbooked) may well do so.
And don't be in any doubt that people will pay a lot of money for such a seat - I have an agreement with one airline that they will make a full fare (Y) ticket available to me at the last minute, even if it means offloading another pax. I have used this facility on a full flight, at great expense, to make an urgent meeting.
What some other posters on this thread display, is a 'smart systems, dumb people' thinking mode (the words being from a professor of marketing I know), which takes good judgment out of the business at the customer interface and relies solely on pricing elasticity (or monopoly) to sell product. One can only conclude that their daily experience has conditioned them to think this way.
Think Ryanair, a business whose values I don't like, but who have displayed great clarity of vision in building a business around focused cost leadership and pricing, with completely inflexible cusomer service. I respect Michael O'Leary and his colleagues for making this model work over a sustained period, even if I don't like a lot of the things they say and do.
But to make it work, you have to be crystal clear on what business you are in and what this means. It means work at a mass market level and managing the aggregate numbers, not paying attention to the individual customer.
Ryanair has achieved this and must be respected - however, in the longer term, there is probably room for only one Ryanair in Europe, IMHO, so trying to copy their model is risky.
Beazalbub's post is interesting, as it shows the tactical thinking in the business at the moment and I understand what he is saying. However, you don't build a successful company on tactics alone and the real winners in the airline sector will be the companies with the best strategies, e.g. Ryanair, Lufthansa, AF/KLM, who have aachieved critical mass in a sector that has over supply. Consolidations and failures are still on the cards.
The average life of a Fortune 500 company is approximately 43 years - how many airlines hit this lifespan?
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Why is it that Ryanair has a good strategy but no flexibility whatsoever but Flybe are seen as unhelpful with no customer service if they adpot the same policy?
There is also a difference between being bumped to next flight and wanting to take an earlier one to suit yourself.
I am not sure about BE but some airlines actively check where changes have been made to a ticket without additional fares or charges being collected and the appropriate station budget is invoiced for the missed revenue ,unless a good enough reason can be found .
There is also a difference between being bumped to next flight and wanting to take an earlier one to suit yourself.
I am not sure about BE but some airlines actively check where changes have been made to a ticket without additional fares or charges being collected and the appropriate station budget is invoiced for the missed revenue ,unless a good enough reason can be found .
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In years gone by (as has been mentioned above) regular airline customers could almost demand flexibility and dedicated service. The simple answer that some here are chasing, is that times have changed. I don't know about other airlines but to receive the type of unquestioning service people seem to desire in some previous posts, you have to be Virgin PAMS or BA Premier, or perhaps a long history of double Gold with BA is also acceptable. To gain these levels, you or your company are spending in excess of £50,000 (eg.ten C to Narita/LA/Melbourne etc) per annum, [/I]per person[/I] with the airline and in some cases over £100,000 (ten F to Narita etc). Given that these types of travellers probably have colleagues doing the same, you will see the difference between these customers and the person who does two or three C class flights a year. That person may well see themselves as very important but, in relative terms, they need to put themselves into context.
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To reinforce some comments on Capetonian's attempt to persuade an 18-year old bimbo with a pimply supervisor (could be any check-in desk at any airport) that it would be a good idea to fill a seat that's about to depart empty and thus have a seat to sell on a later flight; of course it's always a good idea under all possible circumstances, and any rational airline management would have that policy.
But I doubt it was a case of the bimbo and the pimples "not accepting it"; they are very unlikely to have grasped the concept, and even if they had the morons running them would not allow them to think for themsleves.
Airlines who train their staff properly, then allow them to use their knowledge with common-sense, and praise them for doing so will get better loads and yields than those that don't.
I've been preaching that gospel for 30 years with little visible effect on management "experts" with little or no understanding of how organisations really tick, who always know better, and who move from one failed airline to the next with well-polished explanations that it was someone else's fault.
To me the sheer ignorance of many check-in and handling staff is absolutely staggering; let alone being able to think and act sensibly, they often seem not to understand even the basic elements of airline operations.
But I doubt it was a case of the bimbo and the pimples "not accepting it"; they are very unlikely to have grasped the concept, and even if they had the morons running them would not allow them to think for themsleves.
Airlines who train their staff properly, then allow them to use their knowledge with common-sense, and praise them for doing so will get better loads and yields than those that don't.
I've been preaching that gospel for 30 years with little visible effect on management "experts" with little or no understanding of how organisations really tick, who always know better, and who move from one failed airline to the next with well-polished explanations that it was someone else's fault.
To me the sheer ignorance of many check-in and handling staff is absolutely staggering; let alone being able to think and act sensibly, they often seem not to understand even the basic elements of airline operations.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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OK I'm not a frequent flier but do know, that despite whatever uniform they are wearing, a lot of the check-in staff and handling agents actually do not work for the airline to which they are allocated.
So can anyone tell me why an airline should empower an employee of a contractor to make, in effect, financial decisions on their behalf. (I know that my employer does not allow any contractor that right) They as the handling agent will be working to a contract that may specifically forbid them to make such decisions.
In Capetonian's case I wonder if that is what happenned, with (possibly) a handling agent dealing with it according to their contract and internal proceedures (though not contacting BE smacks of dis-interest) but when the airline itself were contacted they made a decision, as they are entitled too.
Of couse that does open a debate into the use of handling agents and the terms of reference of their contracts.
So can anyone tell me why an airline should empower an employee of a contractor to make, in effect, financial decisions on their behalf. (I know that my employer does not allow any contractor that right) They as the handling agent will be working to a contract that may specifically forbid them to make such decisions.
In Capetonian's case I wonder if that is what happenned, with (possibly) a handling agent dealing with it according to their contract and internal proceedures (though not contacting BE smacks of dis-interest) but when the airline itself were contacted they made a decision, as they are entitled too.
Of couse that does open a debate into the use of handling agents and the terms of reference of their contracts.
Shining Example, apparently...
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So the debate has matured into "I know better how you should run your business and if you don't do it my way, you're wrong". How very edifying.
Perhaps one of the self-proclaimed experts can explain the following: I regularly fly on a high-frequency route, and book the last evening flight home. Often, I'll be at the airport several hours early.
If I'm on a flex ticket, I can take an earlier flight if seats are available, for no additional cost. If my ticket's restricted, there's a fee for this service. My frequent flier card is very shiny, yet I'm never compelled to beg freebies.
So: If it's such a good idea to provide this flexibility for no additional cost, why would anyone buy the more expensive ticket?
Apparently I'm "completely clueless" so hopefully the anointed can assist. The airline in question just celebrated it's 75th birthday, so they'd seem to know a thing or two. And the easyJet comparisons are irrelevant as they operate a different pricing structure. Finally:
I deal with these staff several times a week, politely and respectfully. With rare exceptions they are knowledgable, courteous and professional. Maybe your problems aren't with the staff.... 
Perhaps one of the self-proclaimed experts can explain the following: I regularly fly on a high-frequency route, and book the last evening flight home. Often, I'll be at the airport several hours early.
If I'm on a flex ticket, I can take an earlier flight if seats are available, for no additional cost. If my ticket's restricted, there's a fee for this service. My frequent flier card is very shiny, yet I'm never compelled to beg freebies.
So: If it's such a good idea to provide this flexibility for no additional cost, why would anyone buy the more expensive ticket?
Apparently I'm "completely clueless" so hopefully the anointed can assist. The airline in question just celebrated it's 75th birthday, so they'd seem to know a thing or two. And the easyJet comparisons are irrelevant as they operate a different pricing structure. Finally:
To me the sheer ignorance of many check-in and handling staff is absolutely staggering; let alone being able to think and act sensibly, they often seem not to understand even the basic elements of airline operations.
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Frontcheck
IMHO Ryanair is very clear about the strategy and how they deliver it; The company has also built a huge airline and has a lot more leverage than virtually anyone else.
To put it bluntly, where does a 500KG bear sit, wherever it wishes to. If 250,000 people choose not to fly Ryanair, it would hardly be noticed. How many other airlines could absorb a hit like that? They don't need loyal customers, they use price elasticity as their primary tool.
Zero flexibility give the lowest costs and that's why I think they have a very good strategy. By the way, I don't often fly FR (only when I have no other choice), as I do not like the company values or the product, but I do admire the strategy.
West Lakes
Business events, business rules and clear processes would deal with this issue. I am not saying that this service should always be provided for free either, just because easyJet do it, but total inflexibility is not always the best choice, either. You can even change a Ryanair ticket, although the price may not be palatable.
strake
You can still get the levels of service from some airlines for a spend of 25,000€ per annum. I know, because I do. the service includes heavily discounted business class tickets, with two standard prices (one for flights up to about 750km and the other 1500km), completely flexible, changeable without penalty as many times as required, with as little as 24 hours notice, refundable (Less a very small processing cost), changes can include cities, as well as dates and times.
I agree that BA don't offer this service anymore, which is one of the reasons I am only silver these days, but there are real alternatives to BA, which I am sure is one reason why their financials are bad news at the moment, as they have lost a lot of the independent travelers like me and their big corporate clients are spending a lot less.
Crepello
Just out of curiosity and not wishing to pick a fight with you, has the airline you mention ever been into chapter 11?
You say "If I'm on a flex ticket, I can take an earlier flight if seats are available, for no additional cost. If my ticket's restricted, there's a fee for this service. My frequent flier card is very shiny, yet I'm never compelled to beg freebies."
Nothing wrong with selling a seat on an earlier flight, if the customer will pay for it. Airlines are not charities, although I wonder if some should be classed as 'not for profits.'
I've paid an extra 50€ to get an earlier seat in Y, on an airline I don't often use - its good for them and good for me.
With the greatest of respect, if you have to beg for changes, your card may not be as shiny as you think it is. I have a letter from my airline that makes it very clear what is included in my deal and I don't have to beg for any freebies, although I always ask politely when requesting changes.
The point is that mindless inflexibility can cost the airline revenue. (For the avoidance of doubt, I don't believe that Ryanair's inflexiblity in many parts of their service is mindless, it is well thought through.)
Why is it that Ryanair has a good strategy but no flexibility whatsoever but Flybe are seen as unhelpful with no customer service if they adpot the same policy?
To put it bluntly, where does a 500KG bear sit, wherever it wishes to. If 250,000 people choose not to fly Ryanair, it would hardly be noticed. How many other airlines could absorb a hit like that? They don't need loyal customers, they use price elasticity as their primary tool.
Zero flexibility give the lowest costs and that's why I think they have a very good strategy. By the way, I don't often fly FR (only when I have no other choice), as I do not like the company values or the product, but I do admire the strategy.
West Lakes
OK I'm not a frequent flier but do know, that despite whatever uniform they are wearing, a lot of the check-in staff and handling agents actually do not work for the airline to which they are allocated.
So can anyone tell me why an airline should empower an employee of a contractor to make, in effect, financial decisions on their behalf.
So can anyone tell me why an airline should empower an employee of a contractor to make, in effect, financial decisions on their behalf.
strake
You can still get the levels of service from some airlines for a spend of 25,000€ per annum. I know, because I do. the service includes heavily discounted business class tickets, with two standard prices (one for flights up to about 750km and the other 1500km), completely flexible, changeable without penalty as many times as required, with as little as 24 hours notice, refundable (Less a very small processing cost), changes can include cities, as well as dates and times.
I agree that BA don't offer this service anymore, which is one of the reasons I am only silver these days, but there are real alternatives to BA, which I am sure is one reason why their financials are bad news at the moment, as they have lost a lot of the independent travelers like me and their big corporate clients are spending a lot less.
Crepello
Just out of curiosity and not wishing to pick a fight with you, has the airline you mention ever been into chapter 11?
You say "If I'm on a flex ticket, I can take an earlier flight if seats are available, for no additional cost. If my ticket's restricted, there's a fee for this service. My frequent flier card is very shiny, yet I'm never compelled to beg freebies."
Nothing wrong with selling a seat on an earlier flight, if the customer will pay for it. Airlines are not charities, although I wonder if some should be classed as 'not for profits.'
I've paid an extra 50€ to get an earlier seat in Y, on an airline I don't often use - its good for them and good for me.With the greatest of respect, if you have to beg for changes, your card may not be as shiny as you think it is. I have a letter from my airline that makes it very clear what is included in my deal and I don't have to beg for any freebies, although I always ask politely when requesting changes.
The point is that mindless inflexibility can cost the airline revenue. (For the avoidance of doubt, I don't believe that Ryanair's inflexiblity in many parts of their service is mindless, it is well thought through.)
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I feel sorry for the desk staff at LGW. I've been in that position myself albeit in a different line of work. You're told under no circumstances can something be allowed. You're told under no circumstances contact a higher authority to discuss the matter on behalf of a customer as the rules must be adhered to. You pass all this on but the customer goes over your head and gets a result even though you have done exactly as instructed. So humiliating. Capetonian then compounds the matter by referring to the staff in much less than flattering terms. What gives him the right to do so? What gives him the right to expect staff to break the rules they have been told they must follow just for him?
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Read What's On The Box!
Well as stated from the beginning the person thought that 20kg Hold & 10kg can be put any where on an aircraft in total 30kg? WRONG
It is very clear the person has no idea of Load plans, RTOW, COMPUTERS, WEATHER,Fuel and the work that airport staff go through. (Do not tar this airline with your TV shows.)
The Company clearly states 20kgs Hold Baggage and 10kgs Hand this is a generous allowance as people do add more when they go through the so called Duty Free.
The Ladies & Gents behind the counters like to get every one through and on time and have to ask those serious boring questions for security, so every one can fly safely yet you still get the jokers? They have heard it all before!
Yet the specials still come through it’s only a kilo, and I’m keeping my scissors!
Well that inconsideration costs time. It frustrates the Check in & Security staff and it can delay flights, create cues, hence your possible non smile at the check in!
As for the cart tart, she probably agreed with you to shut you up as they have to work and keep other passengers happy as many of us are, as we conform to the rules and safety of our flights.
WRONGIt is very clear the person has no idea of Load plans, RTOW, COMPUTERS, WEATHER,Fuel and the work that airport staff go through. (Do not tar this airline with your TV shows.)
The Company clearly states 20kgs Hold Baggage and 10kgs Hand this is a generous allowance as people do add more when they go through the so called Duty Free.
The Ladies & Gents behind the counters like to get every one through and on time and have to ask those serious boring questions for security, so every one can fly safely yet you still get the jokers? They have heard it all before!
Yet the specials still come through it’s only a kilo, and I’m keeping my scissors!
Well that inconsideration costs time. It frustrates the Check in & Security staff and it can delay flights, create cues, hence your possible non smile at the check in!
As for the cart tart, she probably agreed with you to shut you up as they have to work and keep other passengers happy as many of us are, as we conform to the rules and safety of our flights.