Some crews are just incredible
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Some crews are just incredible
I've been a lurker in here for a good few years and have kept my posting to an absolute minimum, since I do not work witin avaiation (but in systems engineering, hence discussions on here on how to handle issues often have relevant information for me).
Today I figured I'd start my first thread in here (as far as I can rememer).
I was in a lounge last night waiting for an overnight from one continent to another, and even though the lounge wasn't all htat nice it was better than the mayhem in the terminal.
At one point during the night a flight crew comes into the lounge, which is unusual enough as it is. Two expats with four stripes, one expat with three stripes. Stripes on the shoulders, pilot bags in tow, and ID hanging out, and none of the effects leaving any doubt as to who they worked for. Their employer has a much better lounge down the hall.
This in it's own is a piece of non-news. What happened half an hour later made me look twice. In front of me Ihave two four-stripers mixing gin/tonic and vodka/tonic.
As they exited the lounge half an hour later I questioned one of the quietly if they were in fact dead heading and got told that was none of my business.
Now I don't care if they are dead heading or if they are on duty, but this spectacle sure s not helping improving the image of pilots already claiming there is no need to alco tests?
Lounge staff did later identify what flight the crew belonged to.
Anyone care to comment on this being pure stupidity on their or my part?
-A
Today I figured I'd start my first thread in here (as far as I can rememer).
I was in a lounge last night waiting for an overnight from one continent to another, and even though the lounge wasn't all htat nice it was better than the mayhem in the terminal.
At one point during the night a flight crew comes into the lounge, which is unusual enough as it is. Two expats with four stripes, one expat with three stripes. Stripes on the shoulders, pilot bags in tow, and ID hanging out, and none of the effects leaving any doubt as to who they worked for. Their employer has a much better lounge down the hall.
This in it's own is a piece of non-news. What happened half an hour later made me look twice. In front of me Ihave two four-stripers mixing gin/tonic and vodka/tonic.
As they exited the lounge half an hour later I questioned one of the quietly if they were in fact dead heading and got told that was none of my business.
Now I don't care if they are dead heading or if they are on duty, but this spectacle sure s not helping improving the image of pilots already claiming there is no need to alco tests?
Lounge staff did later identify what flight the crew belonged to.
Anyone care to comment on this being pure stupidity on their or my part?
-A
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As a Pax, I'd immediately assume that they were now "off duty",having just finished........the fact that Iwas rudely snubbed when wishing to confirm this, would make me extremely annoyed.
I would have no hesitation in pointing out that in Company Uniform, they had standards to maintain and their present behaviour was bringing the Company's reputation into disrepute.
Anyone bright enough to hold a Commercial pilot's license should be able to assess the risk to their carreer and investment, PDQ.
IMHO an unthinking response that needed a swift reality-check.
I would have no hesitation in pointing out that in Company Uniform, they had standards to maintain and their present behaviour was bringing the Company's reputation into disrepute.
Anyone bright enough to hold a Commercial pilot's license should be able to assess the risk to their carreer and investment, PDQ.
IMHO an unthinking response that needed a swift reality-check.
If they aren't on duty I wouldn't see a problem. It's none of my business what adults that aren't on duty do in their free time.
It's none of yours either.
If you thought they were on duty, and drinking then why didn't you report it?
Edited to add - if it is against policy to drink in uniform then - that's another thing all together.
It's none of yours either.
If you thought they were on duty, and drinking then why didn't you report it?
Edited to add - if it is against policy to drink in uniform then - that's another thing all together.
Last edited by Load Toad; 7th Jul 2009 at 09:07.
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As far as I know, crews are not allowed to drink alcohol when dressed in full uniform, furthermore in front of pax, who are not supposed to guess whether they (crews) are starting or finishing a duty.
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For obvious reasons, the vast majority of airlines have stipulations that crew are not to drink alcohol in uniform under any circumstances and to try to avoid being in a place where alcohol is being served. Drinking in uniform is generally treated by termination of employment.
As for pilots, we have earned a very professional and trusted image with the general public hence why when there is an alcohol related incident it makes headline news. Contrary to what idiotic Daily Mail readers think, there are no serious industry initiatives to start random breath tests to my knowledge nor should there be.
As for pilots, we have earned a very professional and trusted image with the general public hence why when there is an alcohol related incident it makes headline news. Contrary to what idiotic Daily Mail readers think, there are no serious industry initiatives to start random breath tests to my knowledge nor should there be.
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I don't know which airline this crew worked for but I would say that even if not illegal, it is pretty naive to be drinking in public, in uniform, and likely to be against their company's regulations.
However, we don't know the full story or the airline involved. Perhaps these guys had just been told their employer had gone bust/ made them redundant/ not going to pay them last month's wages/ whatever. Perhaps they had just had some other terrible news. Perhaps they had just saved the day by landing their aircraft on fire with one engine. We don't know.
If you were concerned, you should have made a call to the airline or contacted the police, who could have confirmed whether or not this crew were due to operate or coming off duty.
I mean, if you saw them drinking and then did not report it and something happened, you'd feel pretty bad wouldn't you?
Most pilots I know, if coming off duty, or drinking in public, would remove jacket, tie and stripes, so they are not now "in uniform". To not do so seems a bit strange.
However, we don't know the full story or the airline involved. Perhaps these guys had just been told their employer had gone bust/ made them redundant/ not going to pay them last month's wages/ whatever. Perhaps they had just had some other terrible news. Perhaps they had just saved the day by landing their aircraft on fire with one engine. We don't know.
If you were concerned, you should have made a call to the airline or contacted the police, who could have confirmed whether or not this crew were due to operate or coming off duty.
I mean, if you saw them drinking and then did not report it and something happened, you'd feel pretty bad wouldn't you?
Most pilots I know, if coming off duty, or drinking in public, would remove jacket, tie and stripes, so they are not now "in uniform". To not do so seems a bit strange.
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Hello all,
Have to agree that drinking strong alcoholics in a pilot's uniform AND at the Airport is plain undecent.
P.S.: just read from Coppelia that is also not allowed.
Have to agree that drinking strong alcoholics in a pilot's uniform AND at the Airport is plain undecent.
P.S.: just read from Coppelia that is also not allowed.
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Next time I see an off duty doctor, nurse, truck driver, lawyer, bank executive, mariner, or any employable person having drink when not working I'll be sure to ask what they think they're doing. Can't imagine what replies I'd get. Time this sanctimonious hysteria with regard to pilots having a drink is put to bed. If you want irrelevant, unfounded gossip go and buy one of the many magazines sold for that purpose.
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The purpose of the uniform is to make you recognisable to the general public and the world at large, the role you perform, and often the company you perform that role for. In circumstances where you are not in the public eye it is usually irrelevant. A policeman or a Nurse wouldn't normally wear their uniform off duty, however in circumstances where they might, it is normal that members of the public would identify and might seek to utilize them in that role. A truck driver, lawyer or bank manager wouldn't normally have a role or company identifying uniform so the situation wouldn't arise.
Airline crew are frequently required to position and travel in public. In such circumstances they are often actually on duty, and are usually being paid as such for being on duty. This is however distinct from being involved in a flying duty, for which different rules apply. Although there are often no statutory rules as such, airline companies will lay down in their operations manuals, the rules pertinent to crews whilst wearing company uniform. Normally crew may not drink alcohol whilst wearing identifiable company uniform in any place that is open to members of the public.
In these days when everybody has a camera in their mobile phone, it is both risky and naive to be seen doing something like this. The removal of the jacket, tie and epaulettes, with the possible addition of a pullover or similar garment will usually satisy the requirement of not being seen in company uniform. In such circumstances the rules and requirements will usually revert back to those that apply for the general populace. In many cases Airline lounge managers/ hosts will be reluctant to admit aircrew in uniform for these same reasons.
It doesn't matter what had happened to the crew previously, they shouldn't have been, or given the perception that they were drinking alcohol in recognisable uniform. It would lay them open to possible disciplinary action from their own company, it could cause further restrictions to be placed on crew by the host airline they were travelling with, and it falls well short of the levels of discretion, behaviour and maturity expected of someone excercising this role in public.
If asked, it is not unreasonable that crew do not discuss their duty or itinerary with anybody who has no absolute reason for knowing, however most people would be able to manage that with some degree of good manner and civility. Perhaps a crew who displayed such poor discretion and common sense generally might be expected to be further lacking in this regard!
Airline crew are frequently required to position and travel in public. In such circumstances they are often actually on duty, and are usually being paid as such for being on duty. This is however distinct from being involved in a flying duty, for which different rules apply. Although there are often no statutory rules as such, airline companies will lay down in their operations manuals, the rules pertinent to crews whilst wearing company uniform. Normally crew may not drink alcohol whilst wearing identifiable company uniform in any place that is open to members of the public.
In these days when everybody has a camera in their mobile phone, it is both risky and naive to be seen doing something like this. The removal of the jacket, tie and epaulettes, with the possible addition of a pullover or similar garment will usually satisy the requirement of not being seen in company uniform. In such circumstances the rules and requirements will usually revert back to those that apply for the general populace. In many cases Airline lounge managers/ hosts will be reluctant to admit aircrew in uniform for these same reasons.
It doesn't matter what had happened to the crew previously, they shouldn't have been, or given the perception that they were drinking alcohol in recognisable uniform. It would lay them open to possible disciplinary action from their own company, it could cause further restrictions to be placed on crew by the host airline they were travelling with, and it falls well short of the levels of discretion, behaviour and maturity expected of someone excercising this role in public.
If asked, it is not unreasonable that crew do not discuss their duty or itinerary with anybody who has no absolute reason for knowing, however most people would be able to manage that with some degree of good manner and civility. Perhaps a crew who displayed such poor discretion and common sense generally might be expected to be further lacking in this regard!
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Have to agree with just about everyone here. Flight crew in uniform should not, in any way, be associated with alcohol. Argue 'dead-heading'? OK but who, as an ordinary pax waiting to board a flight, would know that? They see 'pilots boozing!'
'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
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Uniform drinking
ph-ndrAs someone who is in the transport industry & wears uniform at all times while working, if I enter a place where alcohol is sold or seved while wearing it,even off duty on the way home and I'm reported to my employers I would be dismissed, no if's, no but's. that's in my contract. I would like to think that all aircrew would be treated the same as I am.I don't drive as part of my job, but I can still be tested for drugs & drink ramdomly or as post incident, so I take no chances & would report & have reported some that have.duracellslade
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So autobreak3, am I to understand if you were about to undergo surgery and you saw a bunch of docs getting lagered up in their place of work still wearing their scrubs your heart wouldn't skip a beat????? I suspect you are either very brave, or not too bright. I'll give you the benefit of doubt on this occasion although many i fear, will not!
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Anyone here know what the relevant company regulations are on this matter for the crew concerned?
Assuming that there must be a rule and that therefore the crews were breaking them, is a wonderful demonstration of jumping to conclusions.
FWIW my last employer had no such rules about drinking alcohol in uniform, as long as the chief pilot was included in the round.
Assuming that there must be a rule and that therefore the crews were breaking them, is a wonderful demonstration of jumping to conclusions.
FWIW my last employer had no such rules about drinking alcohol in uniform, as long as the chief pilot was included in the round.
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max_cont,
I'd suggest that whether there's a rule or not is largely irrelevant, it's still an unwise move. A personal opinion, yes, but one I'd say a lot of pilots would agree with, in my experience.
I enjoy a drink as much as the next guy...and can often be found in the gutter post-socialising down-route. All in civvies though. And with plenty of recovery time in hand.
B&S
I'd suggest that whether there's a rule or not is largely irrelevant, it's still an unwise move. A personal opinion, yes, but one I'd say a lot of pilots would agree with, in my experience.
I enjoy a drink as much as the next guy...and can often be found in the gutter post-socialising down-route. All in civvies though. And with plenty of recovery time in hand.
B&S
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Are you not able to disclose the location and airline involved?
I think you should have either contacted the police or at the very least informed their company about the situation. There may well have been an innocent explanation, but who is to say they were not about to operate a flight? And can you imagine if the press had got hold of a photo? As has been said above, by drinking in a public lounge they were almost certainly in breach of company regulations.
You can't just walk away from a situation like that and then tell everyone about it on PPrune!
I think you should have either contacted the police or at the very least informed their company about the situation. There may well have been an innocent explanation, but who is to say they were not about to operate a flight? And can you imagine if the press had got hold of a photo? As has been said above, by drinking in a public lounge they were almost certainly in breach of company regulations.
You can't just walk away from a situation like that and then tell everyone about it on PPrune!
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I posted this to get the views of people, and it came out about as expected, some I see as very sensible postings and some are just the stereo types I expected to come out the wood work.
Also, I want to correct one thing I got wrong as I sat at an airport this morning typing up the original and clearly was too tired. The airline they travelled on had a lounge down the hall.
After getting the info from the receptionist in the lounge I headed to the gate in question and I could see the people seated at row 0 from there and was happy to see that it was not the men from the lounge and thus most likely a case of dead heading (also their various pieces to ID the employer did not match the company operating the flight).
The reason for posting this, and the reason I actually took notice, it is the first time I've seen flight crew in a lounge and I did get startled to see them go for strong drink in company garb.
Maybe I am being unreasonable, but in my mind, showing up dressed for flight, in an airport and going for the drink is not exactly "smart", even if "legal".
Also, I know the press surely would have loved a picture, but I'm not doing this to get the press to jump on it. I have filed off an email to the airline in question and if it had been a case of the same guys being spotted on row 0 at that gate would have spoken to someone locally at the time.
-A
Also, I want to correct one thing I got wrong as I sat at an airport this morning typing up the original and clearly was too tired. The airline they travelled on had a lounge down the hall.
After getting the info from the receptionist in the lounge I headed to the gate in question and I could see the people seated at row 0 from there and was happy to see that it was not the men from the lounge and thus most likely a case of dead heading (also their various pieces to ID the employer did not match the company operating the flight).
The reason for posting this, and the reason I actually took notice, it is the first time I've seen flight crew in a lounge and I did get startled to see them go for strong drink in company garb.
Maybe I am being unreasonable, but in my mind, showing up dressed for flight, in an airport and going for the drink is not exactly "smart", even if "legal".
Also, I know the press surely would have loved a picture, but I'm not doing this to get the press to jump on it. I have filed off an email to the airline in question and if it had been a case of the same guys being spotted on row 0 at that gate would have spoken to someone locally at the time.
-A