A question to pilots from your average frequent flyer
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A question to pilots from your average frequent flyer
I am your average passenger constantly crisscrossing the world. I have had my fair share of turbulent flights, never really been scared of flying but after the AF disaster, everything has changed.
I have recently flown across the South China Sea and at every bump I found myself holding the armrest.
Can a pilot please reassure me that you guys by rule of thumb always try to avoid storms and how much punishement can an airplane really take.
Also with the radar on board can you really see what's going on when you fly in a turbulent area?
Thank you very much
I have recently flown across the South China Sea and at every bump I found myself holding the armrest.
Can a pilot please reassure me that you guys by rule of thumb always try to avoid storms and how much punishement can an airplane really take.
Also with the radar on board can you really see what's going on when you fly in a turbulent area?
Thank you very much
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torquemada60,
First and foremost, storms and turbulence are a pain in the ass. We can't eat our lunch properly, it's difficult to drink our tea and the crossword becomes illegible. From this, you should see that turbulence is an inconvenience not a danger. So, from a totally selfish point of view, we will do everything within our power to stay clear of it!
As you will see in the video below, the aircraft we fly these days are built to withstand one hell of a beating. Aircraft manufacturers design their aircraft to deal with far more than the natural world can throw at them, so even when it looks like the wings are flapping like a bird in turbulence, they really can deal with a hell of a lot more.
YouTube - Boeing 777 Wing Load Test
Now, I know you're probably thinking 'Yeah, but what about that Air France?'... until the the results of the investigation are published, we will not know for certain, what the causeS (yes, there is always more than just 1 cause) are.
So, in the meantime, take comfort in the fact that we head off to work in these aircraft and weather conditions hundreds of times a year actually looking forward to going flying.
A colleague was once asked does he not get scared being a pilot. His response? "Yes. During the drive to work."
First and foremost, storms and turbulence are a pain in the ass. We can't eat our lunch properly, it's difficult to drink our tea and the crossword becomes illegible. From this, you should see that turbulence is an inconvenience not a danger. So, from a totally selfish point of view, we will do everything within our power to stay clear of it!
As you will see in the video below, the aircraft we fly these days are built to withstand one hell of a beating. Aircraft manufacturers design their aircraft to deal with far more than the natural world can throw at them, so even when it looks like the wings are flapping like a bird in turbulence, they really can deal with a hell of a lot more.
YouTube - Boeing 777 Wing Load Test
Now, I know you're probably thinking 'Yeah, but what about that Air France?'... until the the results of the investigation are published, we will not know for certain, what the causeS (yes, there is always more than just 1 cause) are.
So, in the meantime, take comfort in the fact that we head off to work in these aircraft and weather conditions hundreds of times a year actually looking forward to going flying.
A colleague was once asked does he not get scared being a pilot. His response? "Yes. During the drive to work."
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A colleague was once asked does he not get scared being a pilot. His response? "Yes. During the drive to work."
(a) Spiders
(b) Driving to work
As sharpclassic says, turbulence is more of an inconvenience than a danger - aircraft fly through it every day, and can withstand far worse conditions than the average passenger will ever experience. They have to be built tough to withstand my landings.
For what it's worth, I believe that linking turbulence to the Air France crash is a bit of a red herring. The investigation is obviously at an early stage, however, most aircraft accidents do not have single cause but rather a chain of errors and/or failures and/or events which combine to result in a crash. I suspect that this one will prove to be no different, and that turbulence was - at worst - a factor as opposed to the cause.
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Try to think of the aeroplane as nothing more than a really big car. Turbulence is often nothing more than the quivalent of driving along a bumpy road, with the occassional pothole to give a bigger bump.
It's uncomfortable, and frankly a bloody nuisance, but cars and planes cope with that sort of ride no problem at all.
Then you have the more turbulent conditions associated with jetstreams and large storm cells. Very unpleasant, and from a piloting point of view, probably the equivalent of driving very fast down a rough farm track.
Not something you would choose to do, and something all pilots avoid if we possibly can.
However, again comparing it to cars, if you watch the beating that rally cars take you just wouldn't expect them to hold together, but they do. Aeroplanes are no different.
Don't worry so much, and try to enjoy the good things that flying brings.
PS. Hosties are always fun to watch with a little jiggling!
It's uncomfortable, and frankly a bloody nuisance, but cars and planes cope with that sort of ride no problem at all.
Then you have the more turbulent conditions associated with jetstreams and large storm cells. Very unpleasant, and from a piloting point of view, probably the equivalent of driving very fast down a rough farm track.
Not something you would choose to do, and something all pilots avoid if we possibly can.
However, again comparing it to cars, if you watch the beating that rally cars take you just wouldn't expect them to hold together, but they do. Aeroplanes are no different.
Don't worry so much, and try to enjoy the good things that flying brings.
PS. Hosties are always fun to watch with a little jiggling!
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Torquemada....
Without wanting to open up any kind of debate on AF447 again, I firmly believe (in my humble opinion) that the turb it encountered was no more than the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. Remember that plenty of other a/c were on that route, at that time - the conditions were both forecast and average for the time of year. That turb alone would NOT (again, my opinion) have downed AF447.
Aircraft can take a LOT of punishment, believe me. It can be worrying for pax, and if you're afraid of it there's not much anybody can do other than offer reassuring words, but please don't be any more concerned about flying through turb as a result of AF447 as you would fear driving your car along a bumpy road just because another vehicle crashed on it.
Turb is normal. Planes are designed to act as they do in it. Please don't be concerned by it, and don't read anything into the fact that it was bumpy on AF447. There were far more technical reasons that the kite went down (IMHO).
Aircraft can take a LOT of punishment, believe me. It can be worrying for pax, and if you're afraid of it there's not much anybody can do other than offer reassuring words, but please don't be any more concerned about flying through turb as a result of AF447 as you would fear driving your car along a bumpy road just because another vehicle crashed on it.
Turb is normal. Planes are designed to act as they do in it. Please don't be concerned by it, and don't read anything into the fact that it was bumpy on AF447. There were far more technical reasons that the kite went down (IMHO).
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Presently, we don't know what happened to Air France 447. We have no need to speculate. We do know, however, that airplanes are not raining down on a daily basis, failing in turbulence. Failures in turbulence are rare. They do occur.
There is a big difference between encountering a little turbulence enroute, and flying through a thunderstorm.
In flight, we take great pains to avoid thunderstorms, flying well around them, above them, or using routing that will keep us clear of weather. We have radar which allows us to see not only where the weather is, but its intensity.
I have been in turbulent conditions so great that on one occasion the flight engineer in the aircraft directly behind me was ejected from his seat, bounced of the ceiling in the cockpit twice, and ended up downstairs in the cargo area (a Lockheed C-130). We were at low level in strong winds on the lee side of a mountain, and the turbulence was violent enough that we couldn't see the instrument panel clearly. I've been in severe or extreme turbulence like that during low level activity in the mountains on hundreds of occasions while fighting wildland fires from the air in airplanes...and experienced a grand total of one occasion when we found a structural crack (which we later repaired).
Such occasions are virtually never experienced by passenger aircraft in airline operations. I've operated airplanes which spent nearly their entire lives operating in such conditions, whereas a passenger aircraft may go decades and tens of thousands of hours without ever encountering such conditions. (as a comparison, a NASA study found that we encountered such condition at a rate 500 to 1,000 times that encountered in commercial operations, during a fatigue study of our aircraft). It would take a commercial airliner 200,000 hours of flying to come close to ever encountering that kind of turbulence, and enough of it, statistically, to even begin to approach that kind of exposure...and even then the airframes are typically designed to be able to stand up to the abuse. In practical application, it's a very, very rare thing to be exposed to any level of turbulence remotely close to hazardous, in commercial airline operations.
There has been much speculation made of what happened to the Air France flight. This is nonsensical speculation; we don't know. Until the investigation is complete, the fearmongering and posturing about what *might* have happened has no basis or ground in reality. You're safe when flying from A to B. Don't let the armchair experts out there tell you differently.
From a pilot's perspective, think of it from my point of view. From my office in the airplane, I'm the first one to the scene of the crash. You don't really think I'm going to let that happen, do you?
There is a big difference between encountering a little turbulence enroute, and flying through a thunderstorm.
In flight, we take great pains to avoid thunderstorms, flying well around them, above them, or using routing that will keep us clear of weather. We have radar which allows us to see not only where the weather is, but its intensity.
I have been in turbulent conditions so great that on one occasion the flight engineer in the aircraft directly behind me was ejected from his seat, bounced of the ceiling in the cockpit twice, and ended up downstairs in the cargo area (a Lockheed C-130). We were at low level in strong winds on the lee side of a mountain, and the turbulence was violent enough that we couldn't see the instrument panel clearly. I've been in severe or extreme turbulence like that during low level activity in the mountains on hundreds of occasions while fighting wildland fires from the air in airplanes...and experienced a grand total of one occasion when we found a structural crack (which we later repaired).
Such occasions are virtually never experienced by passenger aircraft in airline operations. I've operated airplanes which spent nearly their entire lives operating in such conditions, whereas a passenger aircraft may go decades and tens of thousands of hours without ever encountering such conditions. (as a comparison, a NASA study found that we encountered such condition at a rate 500 to 1,000 times that encountered in commercial operations, during a fatigue study of our aircraft). It would take a commercial airliner 200,000 hours of flying to come close to ever encountering that kind of turbulence, and enough of it, statistically, to even begin to approach that kind of exposure...and even then the airframes are typically designed to be able to stand up to the abuse. In practical application, it's a very, very rare thing to be exposed to any level of turbulence remotely close to hazardous, in commercial airline operations.
There has been much speculation made of what happened to the Air France flight. This is nonsensical speculation; we don't know. Until the investigation is complete, the fearmongering and posturing about what *might* have happened has no basis or ground in reality. You're safe when flying from A to B. Don't let the armchair experts out there tell you differently.
From a pilot's perspective, think of it from my point of view. From my office in the airplane, I'm the first one to the scene of the crash. You don't really think I'm going to let that happen, do you?
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torquemada60
I am a fellow frequent flyer and also have flown a few hundred hours in small aeroplanes.
Turbulence is uncomfortable and I really don't like moderate turbulence or above.
But I'd would say it always feels worse in the cabin than it really is, becuase we do not have anything to occupy our minds in the same way pilots do.
For example, I was flying a small plane in the UK a few years ago on a lovely summer day and after landing, was surprised when my wife (who was not scared by turb) remarked what a bumpy day it had been. I never even noticed as I was flying, navigating and talking on the radio.
SNSGuppy is honest when he says that sometimes aircraft are destroyed by turbulence, but he also says it is infrequent and rarely in the airline sector.
Lessons were learned in the 1960s that make air travel very safe today - if you can get 411A to add his comments, he is someone with flying experience back to those days.
When I learned of AF447, a chill ran through me, too, but life has to go on and flying is really very safe and generally comofrtable.
All the best.
I am a fellow frequent flyer and also have flown a few hundred hours in small aeroplanes.
Turbulence is uncomfortable and I really don't like moderate turbulence or above.
But I'd would say it always feels worse in the cabin than it really is, becuase we do not have anything to occupy our minds in the same way pilots do.
For example, I was flying a small plane in the UK a few years ago on a lovely summer day and after landing, was surprised when my wife (who was not scared by turb) remarked what a bumpy day it had been. I never even noticed as I was flying, navigating and talking on the radio.
SNSGuppy is honest when he says that sometimes aircraft are destroyed by turbulence, but he also says it is infrequent and rarely in the airline sector.
Lessons were learned in the 1960s that make air travel very safe today - if you can get 411A to add his comments, he is someone with flying experience back to those days.
When I learned of AF447, a chill ran through me, too, but life has to go on and flying is really very safe and generally comofrtable.
All the best.
Warning Toxic!
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I'd soon sort him out. I like it when it gets really bumpy- only times the toilets are free. Only you have to hold onto the walls. It's when the stewies get frightened you know you're having a good one (and that's just a bowel movement). Love it when they call up asking 'how long will it be bumpy?' Like I know? Then the crew in the back ask 'how many thousand feet did we fall?, and don't believe you when you say 6, maybe 8, inches! Love it! I always think I would like to go through heavy turbulence playing Wagner's 'Ride of the Valkyries' at full blast. In fact I will do one day!
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You are going to be just fine.
I am your average passenger constantly crisscrossing the world.
You are the reason we have a job and it is in my best interest to make sure your needs are met.
I have had my fair share of turbulent flights, never really been scared of flying but after the AF disaster, everything has changed.
This is an understandable response. People are going to respond differently to such a widely publicized event. Your feeling scared is a common response. Many people have reacted that way.
I have recently flown across the South China Sea and at every bump I found myself holding the armrest.
Can a pilot please reassure me that you guys by rule of thumb always try to avoid storms
In as much as possible we try to avoid storms and turbulence. Our preparation begins long before the jet takes off. The dispatcher tasked with putting the flight plan together consults numerous weather sources, charts, satellite data, other dispatchers and pilots already flying in the area to put together the safest and most economical route. The pilot looks over the weather data and together they agree on conducting the flight.
While enroute dispatchers, pilots and air traffic control specialists continue to monitor the weather/turbulence and will reroute flights as necessary. On board we have several instruments that aide us in detecting and avoiding bad weather. However, no instrument exists that is 100% accurate in detecting turbulence. It is not always possible to avoid it. As others have said, with much humor, we try and avoid the stuff when we can. If we can’t avoid it we try to minimize its effects.
and how much punishment can an airplane really take.
Do look at the YouTube link that was provided in an earlier response. Airplanes are built to take a lot of punishment – especially newer commercial jets. Structural failure is extremely rare. Like others, I worry about the bus ride to/from the hotel and the public roads going to/from work – not turbulence. Hope that is some comfort for you.
Also with the radar on board can you really see what's going on when you fly in a turbulent area?
Radar that is in use on commercial jetliners is designed to “see” moisture and particulate matter in the air. Radar does not usually “see” turbulence, unless there is particulate matter in the air mass as well. There is a “Turbulence” mode on many radar units but it is far from 100% accurate. We use the radar, as well as “strike finders” (locates lightening discharges) –where there is lightening there is also turbulence. Often our best source of information is real time reports by pilots flying in the area and the air traffic control specialists who are working the area.
Thank you very much.
You are more than welcome. I hope it was helpful.
You are the reason we have a job and it is in my best interest to make sure your needs are met.
I have had my fair share of turbulent flights, never really been scared of flying but after the AF disaster, everything has changed.
This is an understandable response. People are going to respond differently to such a widely publicized event. Your feeling scared is a common response. Many people have reacted that way.
I have recently flown across the South China Sea and at every bump I found myself holding the armrest.
Can a pilot please reassure me that you guys by rule of thumb always try to avoid storms
In as much as possible we try to avoid storms and turbulence. Our preparation begins long before the jet takes off. The dispatcher tasked with putting the flight plan together consults numerous weather sources, charts, satellite data, other dispatchers and pilots already flying in the area to put together the safest and most economical route. The pilot looks over the weather data and together they agree on conducting the flight.
While enroute dispatchers, pilots and air traffic control specialists continue to monitor the weather/turbulence and will reroute flights as necessary. On board we have several instruments that aide us in detecting and avoiding bad weather. However, no instrument exists that is 100% accurate in detecting turbulence. It is not always possible to avoid it. As others have said, with much humor, we try and avoid the stuff when we can. If we can’t avoid it we try to minimize its effects.
and how much punishment can an airplane really take.
Do look at the YouTube link that was provided in an earlier response. Airplanes are built to take a lot of punishment – especially newer commercial jets. Structural failure is extremely rare. Like others, I worry about the bus ride to/from the hotel and the public roads going to/from work – not turbulence. Hope that is some comfort for you.
Also with the radar on board can you really see what's going on when you fly in a turbulent area?
Radar that is in use on commercial jetliners is designed to “see” moisture and particulate matter in the air. Radar does not usually “see” turbulence, unless there is particulate matter in the air mass as well. There is a “Turbulence” mode on many radar units but it is far from 100% accurate. We use the radar, as well as “strike finders” (locates lightening discharges) –where there is lightening there is also turbulence. Often our best source of information is real time reports by pilots flying in the area and the air traffic control specialists who are working the area.
Thank you very much.
You are more than welcome. I hope it was helpful.
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Rainboe, can I come along when you are playing the Wagner? Pipe it through to the cabin full blast.
Turbulence is the only fun part on those interminable hours flying long haul these days. I remember as a boy flying on Bristol Britannias through the tropics in the east at around 20,000 feet watching the grown ups going pale and throwing up. I loved it, but I was only eleven. Being strapped in for four hours across India, no food or drink or the loo because it was too rough. And "rough" is definitely the way to describe it. As a result of these types of experiences I have always kept my belt on but I must say today flying is very rarely "rough", although I notice it was interesting across Borneo the other day according to reports of a QF flight from HK to PER.
Turbulence is the only fun part on those interminable hours flying long haul these days. I remember as a boy flying on Bristol Britannias through the tropics in the east at around 20,000 feet watching the grown ups going pale and throwing up. I loved it, but I was only eleven. Being strapped in for four hours across India, no food or drink or the loo because it was too rough. And "rough" is definitely the way to describe it. As a result of these types of experiences I have always kept my belt on but I must say today flying is very rarely "rough", although I notice it was interesting across Borneo the other day according to reports of a QF flight from HK to PER.
Paxing All Over The World
gdiphil, you can have my seat on Rainboe's flight!
Aged 14 in a Vickers Viscount from Salisbury (as Harare was then) to JNB. Through a thunderstorm at FL 160. Many adults were ill and it was the most unpleasant and disturbing sector of my life. That was some 38 years ago and I have not forgotten.
Yaay for weather rader and nice jet engines to climb higher, even though I have, of course, also been bumped around over the tropics at Fl 360 (again going to JNB, this time in a 741 from LHR) and it was not fun.
Aged 14 in a Vickers Viscount from Salisbury (as Harare was then) to JNB. Through a thunderstorm at FL 160. Many adults were ill and it was the most unpleasant and disturbing sector of my life. That was some 38 years ago and I have not forgotten.
Yaay for weather rader and nice jet engines to climb higher, even though I have, of course, also been bumped around over the tropics at Fl 360 (again going to JNB, this time in a 741 from LHR) and it was not fun.
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I always think I would like to go through heavy turbulence playing Wagner's 'Ride of the Valkyries' at full blast. In fact I will do one day!
Brilliant!
Or as an alternative, how about Ron Goodwin's version of '633 Squadron'?
Last edited by passy777; 24th Jun 2009 at 08:21. Reason: Addition
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Fellow pilots,
I'm surprised (and scared if it is just me) that none of you have mentioned how much you enjoy turbulence - especially during a boring 12 hour flight.
I love it even more during final approach. I'm on a high for at least a few hours after having landed in some pretty atrocious weather.
My biggest regret was that I never experienced landing at RWY 13 at Kai Tak during the typhoon season.
I'm surprised (and scared if it is just me) that none of you have mentioned how much you enjoy turbulence - especially during a boring 12 hour flight.
I love it even more during final approach. I'm on a high for at least a few hours after having landed in some pretty atrocious weather.
My biggest regret was that I never experienced landing at RWY 13 at Kai Tak during the typhoon season.
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torquemada60
torquemada60, you have probably asked the question that most passengers wanted to know the answer to, and I'm sure the replies in this thread go a very long way to satisfy most, certainly me.
Many thanks
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betpump5
I had that at Kai Tak and it was like we were holding onto a tail of a mad kite. Was exciting but we were sent off to Manila instead in the end.Of course the 747 stood up to it really well and none of the pax were that frightened - at least I dont think so. All I know was that we were put into a fantastic hotel and I had a beautiful suite of rooms but only got to stay in it minimum rest as we had to get to HGK asap the next day.
My son who is CSM with Virgin says he loves it when its turbulent as its something different as its really boring when its all smooth!!!!! He always was a contrary little b.....r though!!!! Perhaps he just likes to see who is scared among the crew though.
My son who is CSM with Virgin says he loves it when its turbulent as its something different as its really boring when its all smooth!!!!! He always was a contrary little b.....r though!!!! Perhaps he just likes to see who is scared among the crew though.
