Potential Amish Hasidic Hijack foiled by alert nervous pax not saying anything
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Gregg, if youo're going to communicate with the greater world, please learn the difference betwixt there and their, concentrate on grammar and spelling, and learn to differentiate your religions before complaining. The poor old Amish have copped your accusation- they were not on your aeroplane!
WTF have these forums turned in to ?
Didnt realize this was a grammar lesson - Christ Rainboe, flying must be boring - so boring you get home and check posters grammer rather than reply with a friendly informative reply. Im actualy Dyslexic so have a hard time typing and at guessing religions it seems.
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Im actualy Dyslexic so have a hard time typing and at guessing religions it seems.
But, yes - my first thought when I read this thread was that it would have been unusual to find Amish on a plane.
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THATS RIGHT Guppy - Me and fellow travellers didnt have any idea what we was seeing, thats the problem, it wasnt normal behaviour, thats why I Question.
Prayer isn't normal behavior? It certainly is for practitioners of Hasidic Judiasm.
As for proximity to a door...where the only areas exist that aren't occupied by seats, near a lav and near a door, what do you expect?
But then, you never know. After all, it could have been a secret radical Amish conspiracy. A real threat in the world today, as you know. You're right to question any time you see a possible Amish engaged in this spooky, questionable behavior. You're lucky it wasn't really the Amish, either...because one of them might have turned on you and frankly forgiven you or offered you some hospitality. Scary stuff.
Radical Islamists blow up embassies and hijack aircraft.
Radical Hasidic Jews pray extra hard.
Radical Amish raise barns and plant more corn.
If a good old fashioned barn raising doesn't inspire fear, what possibly could?
Warning Toxic!
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Amish Liberation Front? Popular Front for the Liberation of Amishland? If you don't give up your aeroplanes and cars and televisions, they will get mildly cross, and stop praying for you (for a little while, while they erect more barns and bake cakes and get the horse and carriage sparkly ready).
If the world needs any religious fundamentalism, we could do with more of that!
If Gregg could get past his 'dyslexia', he should understand they were Jews exercising their religion in peace. The poor old Amish could give lessons on how to exercise religion without ramming it up other people! But ignorance and poor education seems to rule in the UK these days....under the guise of 'dyslexia'. Never seen so many in my life.
If the world needs any religious fundamentalism, we could do with more of that!
If Gregg could get past his 'dyslexia', he should understand they were Jews exercising their religion in peace. The poor old Amish could give lessons on how to exercise religion without ramming it up other people! But ignorance and poor education seems to rule in the UK these days....under the guise of 'dyslexia'. Never seen so many in my life.
The Amish do fly, quite often.
Used to often see them coming and going through BWI.
Since the issue has been raised in this thread I think the Amish are a wonderful example of how people with strong views on how life should be lived should live.
They choose to live in their communities the way they want to, they don't try and exclude others from their communities and they don't cause trouble. They don't demand that the host country change their laws to accommodate them and their culture.
Mexicans and Muslims take note.
Used to often see them coming and going through BWI.
Since the issue has been raised in this thread I think the Amish are a wonderful example of how people with strong views on how life should be lived should live.
They choose to live in their communities the way they want to, they don't try and exclude others from their communities and they don't cause trouble. They don't demand that the host country change their laws to accommodate them and their culture.
Mexicans and Muslims take note.
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Gregg, your questions have been answered in full, now I have a few questions of my own.
Did you, while the praying was going on, tell one of the flight attendants/stewardesses that you were worried?
If not, why not?
If you did, what answer did you get?
An aircraft is an unusual environment for many people. Unfamiliar sounds & movements, odd things you see and unusual ways of doing things. No shame in asking. FAs are used to questions about anything and everything.
If you are wondering about anything at all on a flight, ASK the FAs. They will answer you there and then, or ask the pilots via the interphone if your question is a 'pilot question'.
Either way, it will make your flight a lot more relaxed.
As said already, prayer is fine, in front of a door is fine too. (10 wild horses couldn't open the doors in flight so don't worry) An airline is a commercial operation, so who are we to stop them praying. A few years ago, there was a rumour that the Hasidic Jews preferred to fly with us between Tel Aviv and Europe/USA because our FAs were a lot more patient witht heir antics than El Al FAs. No idea if it was true, but we fly a lot of them.
A few minor irritants from an FA point of view; their prayer time often coincides with our meal serving time, and then they are in the way even at the doors.
Some Hasidics will demand that we don't even get close to them since they need to start all over again if touched. Obviously not doable.
Some Hasidic will refuse to be served be female FAs in case the FA is having her period and therefore is unclean. 2 easy solutions; no food/drink, or serve everything to the wife and she'll sort it.
Oh and Gregg, paying attention to Rainboe & his Language Warriors has improved my English a lot. I'm not a native English speaker, so if I can get better, so can you. Dyslexia or no dyslexia.
True story.
747, in front of door 5L, 2 Hasidic Jews in full tefillin regalia, praying and swaying. In front of the opposing door, on the floor, 2 devoted Muslims praying and swaying in a different direction.
In the little connecting corridor, me gently yet firmly informing a swarm of exitedly chattering Japanese tourist in full Japanese tourist regalia (beige hat & safari vest, bedecked with electronic equipment) that videoing people at prayer is not polite.
No not even a little, no you can't stand in the loo and film through the open door, no you can not get your wives and children to come watch, no you can't take still pictures either and sound recordings on your mobile are also out. Just sit down and do some origami OK?
Did you, while the praying was going on, tell one of the flight attendants/stewardesses that you were worried?
If not, why not?
If you did, what answer did you get?
An aircraft is an unusual environment for many people. Unfamiliar sounds & movements, odd things you see and unusual ways of doing things. No shame in asking. FAs are used to questions about anything and everything.
If you are wondering about anything at all on a flight, ASK the FAs. They will answer you there and then, or ask the pilots via the interphone if your question is a 'pilot question'.
Either way, it will make your flight a lot more relaxed.
As said already, prayer is fine, in front of a door is fine too. (10 wild horses couldn't open the doors in flight so don't worry) An airline is a commercial operation, so who are we to stop them praying. A few years ago, there was a rumour that the Hasidic Jews preferred to fly with us between Tel Aviv and Europe/USA because our FAs were a lot more patient witht heir antics than El Al FAs. No idea if it was true, but we fly a lot of them.
A few minor irritants from an FA point of view; their prayer time often coincides with our meal serving time, and then they are in the way even at the doors.
Some Hasidics will demand that we don't even get close to them since they need to start all over again if touched. Obviously not doable.
Some Hasidic will refuse to be served be female FAs in case the FA is having her period and therefore is unclean. 2 easy solutions; no food/drink, or serve everything to the wife and she'll sort it.
Oh and Gregg, paying attention to Rainboe & his Language Warriors has improved my English a lot. I'm not a native English speaker, so if I can get better, so can you. Dyslexia or no dyslexia.
True story.
747, in front of door 5L, 2 Hasidic Jews in full tefillin regalia, praying and swaying. In front of the opposing door, on the floor, 2 devoted Muslims praying and swaying in a different direction.
In the little connecting corridor, me gently yet firmly informing a swarm of exitedly chattering Japanese tourist in full Japanese tourist regalia (beige hat & safari vest, bedecked with electronic equipment) that videoing people at prayer is not polite.
No not even a little, no you can't stand in the loo and film through the open door, no you can not get your wives and children to come watch, no you can't take still pictures either and sound recordings on your mobile are also out. Just sit down and do some origami OK?
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Just sit down and do some origami OK?
It would appear OK to stereo-type the Japanese, however, I do find such potentially offensive remarks coming from a Cabin Crew member AND a moderator of this forum somewhat disappointing.
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passy777, assumptions often lead to misunderstandings. Sorry about unthinkingly assuming that you know something only because to me it is so self-evident. 
At the 'flying pied-à-terre' close to my home airport, I have a collection of origami. Given to me over the years by Japanese pax.
In tourist class we carry many large groups of Japanese tourists. One of their favourite passtimes on board is doing origami. They give us the finished products. We decorate the aircraft with them, we pin them to our aprons and uniform jackets. Not because we necessarily enjoy walking around like gaudy Japanese Xmas trees for 11 hours, but because it obviously makes the origamiing pax very happy. A bit of fun, a bit of commercial thinking and a small mark of respect.
But you couldn't know all that.
So while it reads like a joke, it is what I said. Based on day to day on-board reality.
I hope this bit of background will lessen your 'disappointment'.
At the 'flying pied-à-terre' close to my home airport, I have a collection of origami. Given to me over the years by Japanese pax.
In tourist class we carry many large groups of Japanese tourists. One of their favourite passtimes on board is doing origami. They give us the finished products. We decorate the aircraft with them, we pin them to our aprons and uniform jackets. Not because we necessarily enjoy walking around like gaudy Japanese Xmas trees for 11 hours, but because it obviously makes the origamiing pax very happy. A bit of fun, a bit of commercial thinking and a small mark of respect.
But you couldn't know all that.
So while it reads like a joke, it is what I said. Based on day to day on-board reality.
I hope this bit of background will lessen your 'disappointment'.
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assumptions, often lead to misunderstandings. Sorry about unthinkingly assuming that you know something only because to me it is so self-evident.
Oh come on passy, it was a joke and was not in the slightest bit offensive
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Words to the wise...
And regular readers in this forum will know that I have little time for this kind of BS. Do try and get over yourself. The world really does not revolve around you, and neither does PPRuNe.
passy777 - After such a hasty and pious judgement, you have been given a coherent explanation. Is that sufficient, or do you require more in some way, to compensate for your disappointment? The world waits...
greggx101 - Gee but it's hard to know where to start - There's just so much sloppy, lazy and incoherent thought in your original post that the task is overwhelming. Do you seriously expect airline staff to suspend the human rights of their customers by forcing them to pray in a toilet, or by preventing them from praying at all? Do you seriously suggest that a PA is made every time somebody prays, drawing attention to their activity? Or do those suggestions only apply to those groups, religions or races whose customs you are not personally familiar with? Do more than four Mexicans gathered together constitute a threat? What about an Armenian girls hockey team or two Buddhist monks on a thursday?
Airline passengers are humans and they behave as such: Each is an individual with a discrete set of beliefs, behavioral patterns and needs, all of which vary constantly. Airlines cannot tailor their policies and actions to allow for every conceivable variation. Humans are expected to interact with a degree of tolerance and intelligence, much as they do in day-to-day life. Providing that no harm is done to others (excepting PaperTiger we all understand what this really means) then people have a right to pray: We, as adults, accept and tolerate this, even if we don't know our Amish from our elbow.
greggx101 - your big new word for today is "adult" - See how many different ways you can find to use that word in a sentence
Originally Posted by PaperTiger
Regular readers will know I have little time for public displays of mumbo-jumbo
passy777 - After such a hasty and pious judgement, you have been given a coherent explanation. Is that sufficient, or do you require more in some way, to compensate for your disappointment? The world waits...
greggx101 - Gee but it's hard to know where to start - There's just so much sloppy, lazy and incoherent thought in your original post that the task is overwhelming. Do you seriously expect airline staff to suspend the human rights of their customers by forcing them to pray in a toilet, or by preventing them from praying at all? Do you seriously suggest that a PA is made every time somebody prays, drawing attention to their activity? Or do those suggestions only apply to those groups, religions or races whose customs you are not personally familiar with? Do more than four Mexicans gathered together constitute a threat? What about an Armenian girls hockey team or two Buddhist monks on a thursday?
Airline passengers are humans and they behave as such: Each is an individual with a discrete set of beliefs, behavioral patterns and needs, all of which vary constantly. Airlines cannot tailor their policies and actions to allow for every conceivable variation. Humans are expected to interact with a degree of tolerance and intelligence, much as they do in day-to-day life. Providing that no harm is done to others (excepting PaperTiger we all understand what this really means) then people have a right to pray: We, as adults, accept and tolerate this, even if we don't know our Amish from our elbow.
greggx101 - your big new word for today is "adult" - See how many different ways you can find to use that word in a sentence
Last edited by TightSlot; 4th Jun 2009 at 16:05. Reason: typo
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Passy777, I have apologised for assuming. You choose to interpret that as arrogance.
Such is your privilege.
As for stereotyping; that is possibly a discussion which falls outside the remit of this forum, but it is an interesting little diversion, (to me anyway) so if TightSlot allows it, we can have it. If he feels this forum is the wrong place, I am happy for him to delete everything after this.
I do not see anything wrong in referring to full Japanese tourist regalia.
It describes, in a manner recognisable to everybody who is regularly in contact with groups of Japanese tourists, how the majority of Japanese tourists travelling in groups dresses. No more, no less.
(type 'Japanese tourist' into Google-pictures, and check what people are wearing in the FIRST picture that comes up)
As to Muslims and Jews. Unlike 'Japanese', neither of your examples is a nationality.
The first one is a religious grouping found on all continents. Its members come in all shapes, colours and races. The second one is a people defined by religion and maternal ancestry, diaspora-d to the 4 corners of the world. Irs members come in all shapes, colours and races.
Your question 'would you stereotype' is not a valid one.
Both Jews and Muslims are such immensely diverse groups that I can not find a single way to stereotype them.
After many many years of flying and traveling the world, I can easily stereotype for example New York Jews, high caste Indians, Brazilian Transvestites, Norwegian oil rig workers, members of the extended Saudi Royal family and many other different groups of people for you though.
They and many many others form groups of individuals who, while different and individual in many ways, also share a number of distinctive characteristics, both in behaviour and for example dress code.
I, and all long time LH FAs with me, recognise this and will adapt our behaviour accordingly.
You can call that stereotyping and thus give it a negative meaning, or you can call it a practical way for FAs to make sure their behaviour is adapted to their different pax. This way, the individual FA can give the best service to the many different pax we serve.
If we have a chuckle once in a while because a pax behaves EXACTLY according to what we have come to expect, I see no wrong in that.
People are group animals. We all behave, with individual variations, according to the recognisable standards of our peer group. Some of those standards are easily recognisable, some of them less so, but they exist.
To deny that fact seems to me utterly removed from reality.
__________________________________________________________
edited: TighSlot and I wrote at the same time; he's obviously a faster typist than I am.
Such is your privilege.
As for stereotyping; that is possibly a discussion which falls outside the remit of this forum, but it is an interesting little diversion, (to me anyway) so if TightSlot allows it, we can have it. If he feels this forum is the wrong place, I am happy for him to delete everything after this.
I do not see anything wrong in referring to full Japanese tourist regalia.
It describes, in a manner recognisable to everybody who is regularly in contact with groups of Japanese tourists, how the majority of Japanese tourists travelling in groups dresses. No more, no less.
(type 'Japanese tourist' into Google-pictures, and check what people are wearing in the FIRST picture that comes up)
As to Muslims and Jews. Unlike 'Japanese', neither of your examples is a nationality.
The first one is a religious grouping found on all continents. Its members come in all shapes, colours and races. The second one is a people defined by religion and maternal ancestry, diaspora-d to the 4 corners of the world. Irs members come in all shapes, colours and races.
Your question 'would you stereotype' is not a valid one.
Both Jews and Muslims are such immensely diverse groups that I can not find a single way to stereotype them.
After many many years of flying and traveling the world, I can easily stereotype for example New York Jews, high caste Indians, Brazilian Transvestites, Norwegian oil rig workers, members of the extended Saudi Royal family and many other different groups of people for you though.
They and many many others form groups of individuals who, while different and individual in many ways, also share a number of distinctive characteristics, both in behaviour and for example dress code.
I, and all long time LH FAs with me, recognise this and will adapt our behaviour accordingly.
You can call that stereotyping and thus give it a negative meaning, or you can call it a practical way for FAs to make sure their behaviour is adapted to their different pax. This way, the individual FA can give the best service to the many different pax we serve.
If we have a chuckle once in a while because a pax behaves EXACTLY according to what we have come to expect, I see no wrong in that.
People are group animals. We all behave, with individual variations, according to the recognisable standards of our peer group. Some of those standards are easily recognisable, some of them less so, but they exist.
To deny that fact seems to me utterly removed from reality.
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edited: TighSlot and I wrote at the same time; he's obviously a faster typist than I am.
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Originally Posted by TightSlot
And regular readers in this forum will know that I have little time for this kind of BS. Do try and get over yourself. The world really does not revolve around you, and neither does PPRuNe.
Sorry it upset you. Actually my world does revolve around me. Yours ?
(shelf life of this post - oh, about 2 minutes)